90kg final @ World Champs

As topic, action @ 2'50".
Was the situation readen as newaza by the referee since there was no hansoku for leg grab ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yisgF2xrsVo

Both players where on their knees (hence in newaza) when the leg was grabbed. No penalty is warranted.

Due to the camera view from above I wasn't very sure about lipaerteliani goin on the knees but probably I just misseen

It does look very confusing. If he had thrown him would it had been scored as a throw, if they were both in Newaza? I thought you could not score from a throw in newaza or am I wrong?

xjej wrote:As topic, action @ 2'50".
Was the situation readen as newaza by the referee since there was no hansoku for leg grab ?

I was on a seminar this weekend with the higly qualified referee Franky De Moor (member of EJU refereeing commision) and we discussed similar situations. See examples below:

Tomoe-nage attempt. Situation 1 (NOT hansoku-make):
Uke attempts tomoe-nage, tori blocks the attack with his body (a small stop), then proceeds to grab the legs to get past his guard (while still in tachi-waza), it is then regarded as a valid technique. Why? Because the small stop creates the ne-waza situation (since uke is on the ground) and if tori continues to throw or turn uke around from grabbing the leg in that situation he cannot obtain a score, and it is therefore deemed valid.

Tomoe-nage attempt. Situation 2 (Hansoku-make):
Uke attempts tomoe-nage, tori avoids to be thrown and, while using the momenting of uke, grabs the legs, throws them to the side and turns uke around. The result is hansoku-make. It seems that there has to be a brief stop to signalise ne-waza. If tori directly blocks or grabs uke's legs in the tomoe-nage attempt, ofcourse the result is also hansoku-make.

LIPARTELIANI (GEO)-GONZALEZ Asley (CUB) situation. Video above (NOT hansoku-make):
Gonzalez attempts seoi-otoshi, Liparteliani avoids to be thrown. There is then a brief moment of stop in the technique where both players are in ne-waza and Gonzalez therefore cannot obtain a score from the tachi-waza technique. He can therefore continue to grab the leg. Moreover, if Gonzalez had successfully turned Liparteliani around there would not be given any score and ne-waza would continue. It was basicly a turn-over attempt. If Gonzalez was given the chance to score with this technique it would be Hansoku-make for sure.

Othen-jime situation from seoi-otoshi attempt. Situation 1 (NOT hansoku-make):
Uke attempts seoi-otoshi or seoi-nage (or similar techniques), tori still has a grasp of uke's collar and while uke drops down to the tatami tori blocks the attack using his body, with a momentary stop in the technique uke is regarded as in ne-waza and can therefore not score with the tachi-waza technique if continued, tori immediatly seizes the opportunity of the situation and rolls over uke still grasping the collar with the right(left) hand and grabs the leg with the left(right) hand. Tori chokes uke and the technique is deemed valid since there was a brief stop in the technique and ne-waza was established as a result.

Othen-jime situation from seoi-otoshi attempt. Situation 2 (Hansoku-make):
Uke attempts seoi-otoshi or seoi-nage (or similar techniques), tori grasping on to uke's collar like the above mentioned example, however uke has control of the situation still and tori is in movement, uke can still score with his technique as it is still in motion. If tori now grabs uke's leg and turns around for the choke he must be given Hansoku-make since he blocked uke's attack by grabbing the leg. This is a typical shiai-situation, since othen-jime is popular and effective towards this type of attack.

Hope that helps (or perhaps adds to the confusion). It seems the referee's look closely at uke or tori's ability to score in these situations

This ... is ... all ... incredibly ... ridiculous. It ... has ... nothing ... to ... do ... with ... judo.

BillC wrote:This ... is ... all ... incredibly ... ridiculous.  It ... has ... nothing ... to ... do ... with ... judo.

I agree, but this is what happens if we want Judo to still be an olympic sport and TV-friendly. We can teach leg-grabs in our dojo as we want, just not perform it in shiai.

kani-basami, do-jime and kawazu-gake was a good ban in my oppinion as it protects the contestants who train intensely for 3 years to become olympic champion, only to get your leg broken by a not-so-gentle- or skilled judoka in a world-cup event.

Banning leg-grabs comes down to TV-friendlyness. Defensive bent-over Judo is booring to watch, which results in low tv-ratings, hence no cash income.

Banning grip-breaks has done wonders for Judo, entertainment wise. The statistics speak for themselfs. There was an immence increase in scores and activity in Rio 2013 compared to London 2012.

If we want Judo to shown on TV, increasing it's popularity and recruitment, then I guess we just have to live with these rules :/

Ryvai wrote:

xjej wrote:As topic, action @ 2'50".
Was the situation readen as newaza by the referee since there was no hansoku for leg grab ?

I was on a seminar this weekend with the higly qualified referee Franky De Moor (member of EJU refereeing commision) and we discussed similar situations. See examples below:

Tomoe-nage attempt. Situation 1 (NOT hansoku-make):
Uke attempts tomoe-nage, tori blocks the attack with his body (a small stop), then proceeds to grab the legs to get past his guard (while still in tachi-waza), it is then regarded as a valid technique. Why? Because the small stop creates the ne-waza situation (since uke is on the ground) and if tori continues to throw or turn uke around from grabbing the leg in that situation he cannot obtain a score, and it is therefore deemed valid.

Tomoe-nage attempt. Situation 2 (Hansoku-make):
Uke attempts tomoe-nage, tori avoids to be thrown and, while using the momenting of uke, grabs the legs, throws them to the side and turns uke around. The result is hansoku-make. It seems that there has to be a brief stop to signalise ne-waza. If tori directly blocks or grabs uke's legs in the tomoe-nage attempt, ofcourse the result is also hansoku-make.

LIPARTELIANI (GEO)-GONZALEZ Asley (CUB) situation. Video above (NOT hansoku-make):
Gonzalez attempts seoi-otoshi, Liparteliani avoids to be thrown. There is then a brief moment of stop in the technique where both players are in ne-waza and Gonzalez therefore cannot obtain a score from the tachi-waza technique. He can therefore continue to grab the leg. Moreover, if Gonzalez had successfully turned Liparteliani around there would not be given any score and ne-waza would continue. It was basicly a turn-over attempt. If Gonzalez was given the chance to score with this technique it would be Hansoku-make for sure.

Othen-jime situation from seoi-otoshi attempt. Situation 1 (NOT hansoku-make):
Uke attempts seoi-otoshi or seoi-nage (or similar techniques), tori still has a grasp of uke's collar and while uke drops down to the tatami tori blocks the attack using his body, with a momentary stop in the technique uke is regarded as in ne-waza and can therefore not score with the tachi-waza technique if continued, tori immediatly seizes the opportunity of the situation and rolls over uke still grasping the collar with the right(left) hand and grabs the leg with the left(right) hand. Tori chokes uke and the technique is deemed valid since there was a brief stop in the technique and ne-waza was established as a result.

Othen-jime situation from seoi-otoshi attempt. Situation 2 (Hansoku-make):
Uke attempts seoi-otoshi or seoi-nage (or similar techniques), tori grasping on to uke's collar like the above mentioned example, however uke has control of the situation still and tori is in movement, uke can still score with his technique as it is still in motion. If tori now grabs uke's leg and turns around for the choke he must be given Hansoku-make since he blocked uke's attack by grabbing the leg. This is a typical shiai-situation, since othen-jime is popular and effective towards this type of attack.

Hope that helps (or perhaps adds to the confusion). It seems the referee's look closely at uke or tori's ability to score in these situations

Let me start by first pointing out that Franky is an excellent referee, one of the best around. Not many are at that level. That has consequences, especially when the refereeing process becomes very complicated. What the above explanation suggests, is an "over-compartimentalization" with scenarios that sill sound more or less feasible in this ideal situation, but that in real life will often play within a gray zone in terms of what happens and also happens very quickly.

I would like to offer an alternative, an alternative that I am confident will be fairly well understood by anyone reading this, including those who are not among the world's top-qualified IJF-A referees. My alternative ?

How about simply allowing all cases you mention to proceed as they are proceeding, period ?

By the way, especially the last case you are referring to as Ôten-jime, is problematic, since it should be perfectly allowable to transition from standing katame-waza into newaza-katame-waza, and in katame-waza (which does not have the intent to be a scoreable throw, but a transition into newaza at the most) you ARE perfectly allowed to grab every part of the gi. So why would one in such case want to prevent or penalize touching the legs ? That makes no sense, from a judo-technical point of view. You can implement and create any rule in judo you want. You could, for example, create a rule that says that in order to have a scoreable throw, the throw needs to occur in the direction of the officials table, why not ? The question is whether such from a combat sport activity, which in the end judo pretends to be, makes any sense.

Ryvai wrote:
I agree, but this is what happens if we want Judo to still be an olympic sport and TV-friendly. We can teach leg-grabs in our dojo as we want, just not perform it in shiai.

I am sorry, but now I am not following 'you'.

"If we want Judo to still be an Olympic sport and TV-friendly" ?  How so ?  

So, basically you are saying that from the moment in Ôten-jime from standing position you touch the legs, it is suddenly no longer TV-friendly ?  I find that hard to believe. In figure ice scating they perform all kinds of figures. I fail to see why from the moment they touch a leg instead of an arm it would suddenly be no longer friendly.

Look, the IJF time and time after again 'fabricates' reasons towards the public that supposedly would explain why something is the case, fabricated reasons that oftentimes have nothing, but nothing to do at all with the real reasons. In this case, I don't know, but what I do know is that the IJF can be compared as a headless chicken. They don't typically come to decisions or suggestions after careful empirical and objective research preferably done by a third party which has nothing to gain from whatever the findings. The way the IJF works is that at one point in time you will see an announcement how starting at this and that date the rules will change as follows ...

What is ALWAYS lacking is the announcement many month or years PRIOR to that decision, where the refereeing committee on line opens a discussion about things it is thinking of amending and asking for people's opinions or solliciting research projects to actually assess the anecdotal nonsense they used to base their decisions on.

The interesting consequence of this is that ... the ... "IJF IS ALWAYS RIGHT" !! Today they will say "A" because according to the IJF that is best, whereas next year they will say "B" is best while giving the identical rationale. In fact, the IJF is a school example of a reductio ad absurdum since in its reasoning, in fact "A" is the same as "non-A".

Ryvai wrote:
kani-basami, do-jime and kawazu-gake was a good ban in my oppinion as it protects the contestants who train intensely for 3 years to become olympic champion, only to get your leg broken by a not-so-gentle- or skilled judoka in a world-cup event.

Kawazu-gake has been prohibited for a long, long time.  The technique is problematic because even if well and carefully performed on a nonresisting opponent is has a very high injury risk to a critical joint.

Kani-basami is not quite the same. Kani-basami was banned by the IJF for about a year or so in the late 1970s. The ban was then lifted because the evidence showed that the fears were not entirely sustantiated, some, but not entirely. Injuries did happen, but it was mostly the spectacular way that some of the injuries occurred that stayed with people. The ban was only implemented again after Yamashita's injury against Endô, which largely was Yamashita's own fault for refusing to give Endô the success of an otherwise well-chosen moment. If Yamashita would have done what he supposed to have done, namely have himself being thrown on his back for ippon, which Endô totally deserved, he would not have broken his leg.

But as said, it remains a difficult case, and I am certainly not going to claim the opposite and argue it is the most safe throw of any judo throw.  

Ryvai wrote:Defensive bent-over Judo is booring to watch, which results in low tv-ratings, hence no cash income.

Banning grip-breaks has done wonders for Judo, entertainment wise. The statistics speak for themselfs. There was an immence increase in scores and activity in Rio 2013 compared to London 2012.

You got to do better if you want to sell that here, we are not morons.

Statistics ?  What statistics ?  The IJF has statistics and knows how to apply and read statistics ?  Before throwing that in, let's first talk experimental design, choice of statistics, confidence interval, statistical power and effect size, and then we'll see if one can actually derive any meaningful conclusion from those statistics at all.

"There was an immence increase in scores and activity in Rio 2013 compared to London 2012."  You are being serious, right ?  In essence, kôka has been abolished; it's now called ippon. Sure, in this way, all jûdôka must be so much better than the jûdôka we had 20-30 years ago. Shows how poor jûdôka Koga, Parisi, Adams, etc, all were if you see how many more ippon-scores today even the most unknown jûdôka can make, right ?  The fact that for ippon there used to be a time you actually had to throw a person, and throw him full on his back, and hard, and with power and with control might of course be somewhere play a role in that equation, but sure, the obscure IJF statisticians no doubt have come up with an innovative log-log transformation make that effect disappear, no ?

Ryvai wrote:

BillC wrote:This ... is ... all ... incredibly ... ridiculous.  It ... has ... nothing ... to ... do ... with ... judo.

I agree, but this is what happens if we want Judo to still be an olympic sport and TV-friendly. We can teach leg-grabs in our dojo as we want, just not perform it in shiai.

Why we should want to keep judo being olympic?

Banning leg-grabs comes down to TV-friendlyness. Defensive bent-over Judo is booring to watch, which results in low tv-ratings, hence no cash income.

Banning grip-breaks has done wonders for Judo, entertainment wise. The statistics speak for themselfs. There was an immence increase in scores and activity in Rio 2013 compared to London 2012.

If we want Judo to shown on TV, increasing it's popularity and recruitment, then I guess we just have to live with these rules :/

The last judo fights i could see were via internet stream... TV broadcasts - forget it, there is nearly nothing of that here in Germany...
And how much of the earned cash from the higher tv-ratings of the competition under the new "rule" set, is
coming to you or to your dojo?
- We got nothing... and all the years before we got nothing too...  
But i can reveal what always come to us: New rules and discussions of this kind:
"But this is not allowed anymore... "
"Why we should do this, its not allowed anymore..."
and so...

Fritz wrote:

Ryvai wrote:

BillC wrote:This ... is ... all ... incredibly ... ridiculous.  It ... has ... nothing ... to ... do ... with ... judo.

I agree, but this is what happens if we want Judo to still be an olympic sport and TV-friendly. We can teach leg-grabs in our dojo as we want, just not perform it in shiai.

Why we should want to keep judo being olympic?

Banning leg-grabs comes down to TV-friendlyness. Defensive bent-over Judo is booring to watch, which results in low tv-ratings, hence no cash income.

Banning grip-breaks has done wonders for Judo, entertainment wise. The statistics speak for themselfs. There was an immence increase in scores and activity in Rio 2013 compared to London 2012.

If we want Judo to shown on TV, increasing it's popularity and recruitment, then I guess we just have to live with these rules :/

The last judo fights i could see were via internet stream... TV broadcasts - forget it, there is nearly nothing of that here in Germany...
And how much of the earned cash from the higher tv-ratings of the competition under the new "rule" set, is
coming to you or to your dojo?
- We got nothing... and all the years before we got nothing too...  
But i can reveal what always come to us: New rules and discussions of this kind:
"But this is not allowed anymore... "
"Why we should do this, its not allowed anymore..."
and so...

Indeed, and if tomorrow the IJF claims that we all need to wear orange bullet-proof vests to protect judoka from attacks by aliens from Mars, then no doubt, you will have people actually believing that, doing that and trying to convince others of that, all for the sake of the sport of judo.

As my coach made me notice, there wasn't even a leg grab, as you can see @ 3'04" Gonzales is still holding Liparteliani's harm _trough_ his legs since after the previous seoi attack.