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    Cichorei Kano
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    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sun Dec 22, 2013 4:10 am

    NBK wrote:

    But, you have to wonder if there were stylistic differences over 45 year life of the Busen.  Almost certainly not as reflected in the subject kata, but perhaps more subtle.  

    This is true, and no doubt if you or I would research this topic we would both dive in to the necessary records and talk to the right people and so on. In this case the oddity is that the authors of the book in question never consulted a Japanese source. For examle, Isogai's "Jûdô Tebiki" as you correctly suggest a very well known Kyôto-based book that every serious jûdô scholar would know was not even among the sources of the authors. In fact the authors came here on the forum years ago to ask for sources. Because the story they presented lacked the supervision or consultation of an experienced jûdô scholar I asked a number of questions. Basically they said their new book on Busen was to appear, and so I naturally asked what Japanese primary sources they had consulted. Later I noticed that --to the best of my knowledge as I do not have the book right in front of me-- they had not included a single serious source from before the 1950s or in Japanese. So what they wrote out was mostly conjecture based on the vaguely recalled memories of a visit to Japan. Furthermore they angrily reacted to the questions they received on this forum as if were were intent on torpedoing their project, and made it clear they would publish their book within X number of months irrespective of what we did, as if it was our goal to make sure the book would not appear ... It's painful experience when people in jûdô refuse to learn and are only interested in having their voice heard not matter how nonsensical. The sad impression was that actually contributing to accurate knowledge about the Butokukai was secondary to somehow establishing some kind of authority. One notes that the book appeared in a time that efforts took place in their country to replace the 'Busen standard' by the 'Kôdôkan standard'. I think that any scholar in order to be successful needs to have a willingness to learn. When it comes to the point that one believes one only has to teach and knows everything that is a problem, especially when every scholar immediately recognizes how poor the level scholarship really is. However, in jûdô where the cult of dan-rank has traditionally ruled over academic accuracy it remains possible to get away with this, although increasingly Western scholars tackle concepts in jûdô which before belonged to the realm of myths.


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    Post by Jacob3 on Tue Dec 24, 2013 8:15 am

    As being a Dutch Judoka, quite familiar with the sources over here ( I trained under De Korte, Kruyning, Blonk, De Bijl, e.o. ), let me try to put things into perspective.

    At first the claim that Michigami sensei sent De Korte to Ebii. I have never heard him say that, and also in his book he does not state such a thing. The only thing he writes there, is that at some point he got to know Ebii through Michigami. So the only thing he says, is that they knew one another. Not quite the same thing if you ask me.

    Then about the two systems we use over here. I am not in favor of this at all, but it is not the way the 'rest of the world' seems to see things.
    De Korte has never ever claimed that in the old days, there were two different styles, namely the style at the Kodokan and the style at the Budosenmon Gakko. That is just fiction.
    What was happening over here, is that the kata that were performed by others then his own students, started to become extremely empty and robotic. He just hated this new and so called 'modern' version. Because of that ( and with no doubt also because of some more personal reasons ), he simply tried to hold on to the more traditional way. Now, no one will deny that the modern kata are being practiced quite differently then in the old days. So the two versions that everyone is talking about, are not two different 'old' versions, but a modern version and a traditional version. So, just lets get over that from now one please.

    BUT, I can only agree that there are serious flaws in De Korte's teachings, compared to old footage. On the other hand, there are at least as many flaws in the modern teachings over here ( and everywere else I guess ). The positive thing I have seen happening over the past two years, is that both the styles have grown towards one another. The modern robotic style has lost a lot of ground, and it became a lot more natural. Not only because of the Korte btw, but this discussion did intensify the kata study over here. However, it has been long enough now, and the discussion can come to an end imo...Doesn't make things much easier for new judoka.

    Being trained for many years ( indirectly at first ) in De Korte's way, has made me much more aware of the practical background and practice of the Kodokan way. Which is something that I see missing at so many practioners these days....So I for one am glad that I have been able to grasp some history at my relatively young age. Which would not have happened if there weren't people like De Korte, or my own old sensei over here.



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    Post by Jonesy on Tue Dec 24, 2013 9:52 am

    Thanks Jacob3. Is it correct that the JBN call the 2 ways Kodokan style and Busen style?

    If so, would you know who is the originator of this terminology?


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    Cichorei Kano
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    Post by Cichorei Kano on Tue Dec 24, 2013 11:43 pm

    There is a website with lots of stuff on it:

    http://www.busenjudo.nl/

    https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.526019577411021.130297.308849159128065&type=3

    Also, do not forget that there should be the actual discussion of this topic on the old forum in which one of the authors participated. I currently don't have the link to that old discussion, and the old forum currently seems down. It might be useful though since we could then read the author's own words directly as a primary source without use having to relay or paraphrase or interpret things.


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    Post by Jacob3 on Wed Dec 25, 2013 7:15 am

    Jonesy wrote:Thanks Jacob3. Is it correct that the JBN call the 2 ways Kodokan style and Busen style?

    If so, would you know who is the originator of this terminology?

    Yes that is correct. Do not ask me why that is the case, but hey... when we need to comply to one of two systems here, it is quite handy to keep them apart by naming them differently...

    Tbh, before 2005 I have never ever heard anything about there being different styles. Nor that the style I was practicing was a typical Busen style. We practiced kata, as we were taught by our sensei, like he was taught by his ( Hirano, Abé, Ge Koning, Anton Geesink, Grandpa Schutte, and yes...Chris de Korte ). So we had all kind of influences, and now comparing them to both 'standards', I guess we had little bit of both. Then again, stating 'standards' here, makes me realise that I need to clarify this aswel. In both 'systems' there is no such thing as a standard. In both cases it all boils down to individual preferences, like everywere else in the world appearantly. In fact, I failed my yondan exam on kime no kata, because I 'transferred' from the 'busen' style to the Kodokan style. I was failed by one of the two main Kodokan influentials over here, and I was extremely surprised that the points he failed me on, were exactly the points that I used to do differently in my 'busen' era. So what he in fact told me, is that my Kodokan style ( as taught to me by very recent, high level competitors in this kata ) was not like it should be, but that I needed to perform them like I learned in the 'busen' style. Go figure. It is a mess here xD.

    But let me do some assumptions here, to give some sort of an answer to your question. Clearly the busen naming started as soon as De Korte and Kruyning published their book. As people who can read Dutch, can read on their site and in their book, they only claim that Busen was a leading and influential institute at the time from where many teachers went to Europe to teach us. They dont say that the Kodokan at the time, used a different standard, but they do claim that the Kodokan 'developed' kata further, and that Busen stopped any development when they were shut down after WWII. And therefore they use Busen to refer to 'the old way' ( not my words ). To go a bit deeper. I have wondered ( as did many ) why these two authors really did their best to keep their way of teachings so into the picture, that we even got a 'two way system' here. As if things were not already complicated enough.
    Chris de Korte did not need to keep his name up regarding Kata. He is/has been already one of the most influental people in Dutch Judo anyway because of his accomplishments regarding competitions. He brought forward many champions and has been head coach of the JBN for many years. But suddenly someone called Edgar Kruyning came into the picture. I had never heard of him before. As far as I know, he isn't even a direct student of De Korte. I have the feeling ( and none of them will ever admit that, so it is nothing more than a feeling ), that he is the one who is the driving force behind this claim. I do know for sure that he is the driving force at MAINTAINING this claim though. He is the one who holds these sites/facebookpages/books and he plans all the training sessions and competitions in busen style. I dont have the feeling that De Korte gives a ... anymore about all this. He provided a platform for Kruyning to gain influence. And not to my big surprise, he got promoted to 7th dan a few monthes ago, based on 'accomplishements' instead of skills.
    And to be clear on this, I do not know Kruyning that well. I do know that he is very skilled, and also a good teacher of whom I can learn a lot. So this is not at all personal ( although he is not the first on my list to go to for teachings ), but it might shed a little bit of light on the situation.

    Your next question will probably be why this system then 'stuck' so much over here. Well, there is quite a large group ( by far not as large as they try to make everyone believe on their site though ) that was trained by De Korte and his followers. Everyone can understand that they were not very fond of suddenly realising that what they have been practicing is not what the rest of the world likes to see. Nor that perhaps several of their techniques were not even correct at all! Those people are very happy that now their 'system' has quite a protective status. In fact, most of the discussion about these systems is between decendants of De Korte vs the more modern pracitioners. So quite an indirect discussion. In that light, it was also in the interest of De Korte to have Kruyning promote his way of performing. Better dividing the camps, than to find out that perhaps you were not entirely correct for so many years.

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    Post by Hanon on Wed Dec 25, 2013 7:56 am

    Jacob3, thanks for that post. You have shed much light on the situation. It is more or less exactly as I wrote about earlier on. When the DNBD was closed in 1945 that line of tutelage ceased whereas the kodokan line continued and over the years made many changes to the kata.

    The difficult part for me is to allow an NGB to use two different standards by which to asses its members. That cannot be helpful to the growth and cohesion of kodokan judo.

    I would have thought it best for experienced examiners as the ones you mention to mark a persons kata on its principles? If we decide to be pedantic no two kata even performed by the same couple can ever be reproduced. This is the folly of todays kata trend, so many are trying to be clones of each other and in doing so are loosing the point of why we practice kata in the first place.

    Kata never has been and never can be an isolated subject outside the average practice limits of any given judoka. Kata is a tool and not an end in itself but a way to study in a formal also informal manner the mechanics and principles of judo from ukemi to zanshin and every other concept in between.

    I feel very sorry you have this situation. Must be the cause of confusion and frustration where neither need be experienced.

    It all sounds so absurd. So typically judo!

    Kind regards,

    Mike


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    Post by Jonesy on Wed Dec 25, 2013 7:54 pm

    Jacob3. You have my sympathy. I find it insane that modern kata examiners believe that they can assess a kata to either Kodokan or Busen standard. They should just assess what they see in front of them - is it a competent Koshiki-no-kata (or whatever) and pass or fail accordingly.


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    Post by Jonesy on Wed Dec 25, 2013 8:02 pm

    Jacob3 wrote:
    ....But suddenly someone called Edgar Kruyning came into the picture. I had never heard of him before. As far as I know, he isn't even a direct student of De Korte. I have the feeling ( and none of them will ever admit that, so it is nothing more than a feeling ), that he is the one who is the driving force behind this claim. I do know for sure that he is the driving force at MAINTAINING this claim though. He is the one who holds these sites/facebookpages/books and he plans all the training sessions and competitions in busen style. I dont have the feeling that De Korte gives a ... anymore about all this. He provided a platform for Kruyning to gain influence. And not to my big surprise, he got promoted to 7th dan a few monthes ago, based on 'accomplishements' instead of skills.
    And to be clear on this, I do not know Kruyning that well. I do know that he is very skilled, and also a good teacher of whom I can learn a lot. So this is not at all personal ( although he is not the first on my list to go to for teachings ), but it might shed a little bit of light on the situation.
    At 44 Edgar Kruyning is very young to receive a 7 dan - especially as he seems not to have international level achievements in judo as a competitor (tournament or kata), coach or referee which are usually customary for Westerners to receive early and high kodansha promotions. However, perhaps being a multi-published author is enough of a quality achievement in its own right. His background seems strong in Yoseikan aikido though.  I would like to go on a course with him.......
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    Post by finarashi on Wed Dec 25, 2013 10:11 pm

    Jonesy wrote:Jacob3. You have my sympathy.  I find it insane that modern kata examiners believe that they can assess a kata to either Kodokan or Busen standard.  They should just assess what they see in front of them - is it a competent Koshiki-no-kata (or whatever) and pass or fail accordingly.
    I'd like to support Jonesy. If you look grading, then it is a grading of Judo and kata should be judged on how it reflects the principles of Judo and how it shows the level of understanding of the Individual's Judo. basically e.g. in nage-no-kata you can see who has been teaching the individuals beeing assessed. So if you go and say you should have done this and not that and therefore I fail you it is more an assesment of their sensei than them.


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    Post by Stevens on Sun Dec 29, 2013 1:06 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Stevens wrote:

    On what grounds or knowledge authority did Kotani sensei make so many changes to the koshiki no kata? Kotani sensei had no education the the koryo?

    So he's the one who changed and the Dutch didn't change and went on doing the old thing?


    To some extent, perhaps, but not entirely. Two different things. Indeed, Kotani made lots of changes, I believe around 1968. And separate from that what is referred to as Busen reflects in fact Kôdôkan in a certain year ... THUS of someone who decided "look I have a decent knowledge (despite my own limitations at that point) of how Kôdôkan kata needs to be done, and for whatever reason I am now not going to change it anymore with each change the Kôdôkan, makes, and I am going to continue doing it as I learnt it (thus Kôdôkan style anno whatever).

    The waters get murky when Ebii-sensei gets dragged in. I never met Ebii in person, but ... at least two people on the old forum, two senior people, one from Japan, the other from elsewhere did. One of those people actually trained under Ebii and if he decides to do so, could talk to you about the many things he and others learnt or did not learn from Ebii, and similar things. However, it is not permissible per Judo Forum policies to drag in private people into a public debate who are not here and do not voluntarily wish to participate in such debate. That's all I can say.

    I do have some nice pieces of documentary evidence that show Ebii-sensei. Whilst unfortunately even I do not have film showing Ebii-sensei, the documentary evidence I have certainly shows a deep level of experience. But, because they are stills it is not possible to accurately assess the technical aspects in detail. Ebii-sensei was a leading and still famous former sensei of my dôjô in Japan, although I must hasten to say that I am not implying at all that this would mean I or my knowledge would have personally benefitted from that since I never met the man and the both the sensei you mentioned and the ones I mention are older than me.

    IF one really wants to assess to what extent someone saying or claiming they are performing it exactly as some legendary master, then probably the best way to get an idea of this would be to ask someone who did extensively train under said sensei. People like Ellis-sensei and Hanon-sensei can almost immediately see if they see someone do jûdô to what extent such person truly reflects skills he would have learnt from Abe Kenshirô-sensei. I am choosing my words carefully without implying anything. I cannot assess this with regards to Ebii-sensei since I was never a pupil of Ebii-sensei, but as said, someone on the old Judo Forum was. So, this presents one avenue of research. To what extent is what is shown actually an accurate reflection of what Ebii-sensei did. Given Ebii-sensei's very advanced skills ... I would venture that oneself would need to have extraordinary kata and jûdô skills in order to reflect the skills of such a man.

    One of my sensei is Okano-sensei, but you are never going to hear me suggest that what I do accurately reflects what Okano does with comparable skill. There are of course certain things that will reflect this that will show it is a mindset I am strongly following and trying to achieve, but the truth simply is that Okano will probably have forgotten more about judo than I will ever be able to learn. I think it is fair to say to some extent the same may apply to Ebii-sensei's kata skills and knowledge.

    Why did Kotani implement changes. I have a document somewhere, but I can't immediately recall which and where, that explain that one of the reasons is the changed size of the tatami. In the old days, nage-no-kata was done differently. The next movement was started where the previous one ended, and not with the return to the starting spot in the line of the kata. Well with koshiki-no-kata, the original form was geared towards practice in much more confined spaces than a full classical IJF tatami of 16X16 m. So, for technique 5-8 a change was implemented that the movement would be done using the diagonal of the kata. In classical Kitô-ryû, the switching of jûdôka was not consistent. In the changed Koshiki-no-kata it is is. The current Koshiki-no-kata is therefore easier to remember than the classical koshiki-no-kata.

    There are things that entered kata in the 1980s that point towards increasing formalization. A good example of this is the stepping. People would step what felt naturally. It was then formalized toward if stepping back, one would start with the right foot, and if one would step forwards one would step forwards with the left foot. However, historically, there is little or no basis to this. If you watch Mifune demonstrate kata, you will see that this convention is not applied by him and the man did know jûdô and was a student of Kanô.

    One can't argue, for example that if I would now refuse to apply the consistent backstepping right/foreward stepping left, that this would imply that I am not performing Kôdôkan but Busen. No, it means that I am practicing Kôdôkan year 19-whatever.

    Another example. I owed much to Fukuda Keiko for my jû-no-kata. I think that she was a superb reference as Fukuda's practical jûdô teachers were Noritomi Masako (and mostly Honda Ariya, but also Mifune- and Samura-sensei). So when I demonstrated jû-no-kata at the Kôdôkan and no one there knew me yet, I remember Umezu Katsuko (now the higher ranked female in the world with a big smile pointing at me and saying "Fukuda-sensei"). Why ?  Because she recognized that I was doing (as did Fukuda) really jû-no-kata anno 1955 !  But you know that's OK !  The principles are still the same, and no self-respected sensei at the Kôdôkan would mark you down for it. Only idiots who do not know jûdô would. I could have claimed that I was doing "Busen jû-no-kata", but I was not.

    Jû-no-kata is not 'ESSENTIALLY' changed, but it has been somewhat streamlined, certain things being more consistent, adaptions consistent with a larger tatami, and some things that our friend wdax who practises this kata a lot will also know about very well. What I am saying here is very important though. Someone who really knows his kata ... It does not matter if he demonstrates how he learnt it in 1955 or in 2013, the principles are still the same; kuzushi is still kuzushi, throwing still throwing, debana still debana, and the kata is not worse if it turns out that at one point one of these changes is present or not, though obviously for top-teachers and performers such things at that level may merit discussion. One such point is in ryô-kata-oshi in jû-no-kata when tori starts progressing forward what position he/she ends in. Many people today end standing on the tip of their toes, whereas historically many did not, Fukuda did not. You can debate this. On the other hand, there are also modern phenomena which are plain stupid. Such an example is naname-uchi in jû-no-kata where uke is lifted up in an ura-nage-like movement. In modern days, many performers at that moment suddenly look up into the sky as if at the point the sky would be opening up and angels would be descending in a circle of bright white light. I have no idea where this is coming from, but historically there is no basis for it. Fukuda did not do this, and my research shows it is much more credible not to do it than to do it. What rationale could someone possibly have for taking this devout expression on the face ?  But would that justify me who does not do that arguing that I am performing Busen-style jû-no-kata ?  No, not at all. It simply means that my (completely permissible personal choice) is in these aspects to stick with the 1950s convention, whereas I do consistently step back right foot first, and forward left foot first just like it is taught today. Doing so does not affect the principle of the kata and makes it more consistent. Looking at Angels does nothing about movements of the kata, but as innocent as it is, in terms of spirit and inner experience I cannot find any ground to justify that and it is an anomaly.

    Such historic preservations have use, particularly when kata teaching completely deteriorates due to conventions dominating, while principles and essence is no longer understood. The less well-read Kôdôkan teaching staff have found a remarkable arguments to deal with that though. If you refuse  --like I do--  to implement nonsensical formal things that have removed the spirit of kata and are plain wrong they will say "Ah, no, no, that's jûjutsu, not jûdô !", which is complete bullocks  ...

    If the explanation were true that taking the kata seriously would be jûjutsu, then this would imply that Kôdôkan only does and maintains kata as an "Entartete Übung", a degenerated exercise that pertains to be merely aesthetic depleted of any realistic application to fighting, where the action/reaction principle has disappeared and where the only reason one jûdôka does A, is because it is prescribed and not because it is a prescribed effective reaction to B.

    Music still is one of the best guiding principles for jûdô. Let's speak violin music. David Oistrakh, Jascha Heifetz, Yehudi Menuhin, were three absolutely extraordinary violinists. The music they played was prescribed, no ?  They all play the same notes, yet if you listen to their Brahms or Tchaikovsky or Beethoven violin concerto there are huge differentces. None of them playes it "Busen". It's all the same Brahms, Tchakiovsky, Beethoven. It's clear all three have far exceeded the limits of conventions. Only an idiot would try appreciate what they do by taking the music score and a metronome and compare to what extent they notes are equally long. Moreover, you will see that the same concerto played by one player is much longer or much shorter than that of the other one. It is a living thing, and jûdô kata above all MUST be living art. Of all these kata clips which currently terrorize YouTube many excel by showing dead jûdô. If your kata shows dead jûdô, then what does it matter that you 100% were in agreement with all conventions ?  How does a dead kata improve your jûdô. It is these where are the questions to ask.

    If i understand: the both koshiki no kata shown in post no. 1 are dead.
    Maybe you can give an example of a living koshiki no kata?
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    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sun Dec 29, 2013 2:43 am

    Stevens wrote:
    If i understand: the both koshiki no kata shown in post no. 1 are dead.
    Maybe you can give an example of a living koshiki no kata?

    The problem is that I am limited by referring to the Internet. After all, if I would make a reference to something not available on the Internet, you are not going to find that very helpful, now would you ?  Unfortunately there are no excellent versions of Koshiki-no-kata available on the Internet. But there are some that are not dead or far less dead than others.

    There obviously is Kanô Jigorô's own demonstration with Yamashita Yoshitsugu:



    Surely there are parts where control isn't optimal and uke' attacks aren't always very determining, but it definitely is not dead wood.


    The version by Yamashita Yoshitsugu/Nagaoka Hideichi:



    Film is not optimal due to missing sequences, and desire to really attack uke not always abundant, but it is not dead wood.


    On the other hand, this historic version by Yamashita Yoshitsugu/Isogai Hajime already contains serious signs of what we see today, despite the excitement is seeing these historic masters. It isn't optimally realistic, and you already have the impression that Yamashita is just doing his thing because he knows what is coming:




    There was one decent modern version on YouTube from a couple of years ago, but I can't find it anymore. So, to keep it simple, if one just takes the 90-year old version of Kanô himself as a model, one already has a very good reference point. If on can do it like that, then the momentary lapses in control due to old age and lack of practice will be forgiven or easy to amend with some more practice.


    Last edited by Cichorei Kano on Sun Dec 29, 2013 4:01 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : inserted missing word)


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    Post by Stevens on Sun Dec 29, 2013 3:24 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Stevens wrote:
    If i understand: the both koshiki no kata shown in post no. 1 are dead.
    Maybe you can give an example of a living koshiki no kata?

    The problem is that I am limited by referring to the Internet. After all, if I would make a reference to something not available on the Internet, you are not going to find that very helpful, now would you ?  Unfortunately there are excellent versions of Koshiki-no-kata available on the Internet. But there are some that are not dead or far less dead than others.

    There obviously is Kanô Jigorô's own demonstration with Yamashita Yoshitsugu:



    Surely there are parts where control isn't optimal and uke' attacks aren't always very determining, but it definitely is not dead wood.


    The version by Yamashita Yoshitsugu/Nagaoka Hideichi:



    Film is not optimal due to missing sequences, and desire to really attack uke not always abundant, but it is not dead wood.


    On the other hand, this historic version by Yamashita Yoshitsugu/Isogai Hajime already contains serious signs of what we see today, despite the excitement is seeing these historic masters. It isn't optimally realistic, and you already have the impression that Yamashita is just doing his thing because he knows what is coming:




    There was one decent modern version on YouTube from a couple of years ago, but I can't find it anymore. So, to keep it simple, if one just takes the 90-year old version of Kanô himself as a model, one already has a very good reference point. If on can do it like that, then the momentary lapses in control due to old age and lack of practice will be forgiven or easy to amend with some more practice.

    Thank you!!!! Never seen the last two. I think to understand what you mean by dead and living. Hope to see the decent modern version you're writing about in the future. As i may say: i see more living in version 1 then version 2 of post no.1.
    NBK
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    Post by NBK on Sun Dec 29, 2013 3:57 am

    how in the world did we get to the state of kata today?  pale  In all these examples, the sutemi waza are quick and efficient - off balance uke, simply reach around, head for the mat, take uke with you.

    Today, there seems to be an understanding that there is a five step reversal that simply makes zero sense. Tiny little stutter steps that simply could not occur in any vaguely realistic action and take an eternity to execute.
    Jonesy
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    Post by Jonesy on Mon Dec 30, 2013 10:45 pm

    I re-post here a piece from a respected sensei on one of the other Forums we have all enjoyed in the past:

    Back in 1995, Daigo-sensei spoke about these circumstances i.e. Butokukai/Kodokan differences.

    Daigo:  " ... I remember seeing the Koshiki-no-kata by Kaichiro Samura-sensei, and thought that it was quite different from that of Nagaoka-sensei.  Also in Kansai (= Osaka region) Hajime Isogai-sensei was a man of unique personality and brought into his kata his own creativity."

    Interviewer: "Should there be such differences, would it not pose some problems?"

    Daigo:  "Indeed! In 1954, therefore, the Kodokan formed a committee called The Waza Study Committee, through which all kata are to be standardized.  The Committee was entrusted with this work to complete by 1990 for 7 Kata of the Kodokan now available in a form of booklets."

    (Note though, that since then, Daigo-sensei has written in the Judo magazine of the Kodokan (from October 2008 till January 2009) about the Kodokan Kata where he mentioned that there are 9 Kata of the Kodokan.)

    The ultimate references for the Kodokan Kata are not their DVDs but the booklets only available in Japanese here: Kodokan kata booklets
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    Post by Lurker on Tue Dec 31, 2013 4:16 am

    At the Kodokan Summer kata Course this year a number of the senior sensei were carrying/writing in/referring to these books.
    Jonesy
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    Post by Jonesy on Tue Dec 31, 2013 6:18 am

    NBK wrote:how in the world did we get to the state of kata today?   pale  In all these examples, the sutemi waza are quick and efficient - off balance uke, simply reach around, head for the mat, take uke with you.

    Today, there seems to be an understanding that there is a five step reversal that simply makes zero sense.  Tiny little stutter steps that simply could not occur in any vaguely realistic action and take an eternity to execute.  
    The trend in recent years has been one of an increasing focus on "movements" as opposed to "principles". Many kata performances these days are less “educational” than they used to be. In the past there used to be in each and every performance something worth learning from, but less so now.

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