Meeting between Hitler and Kano

Wow - 6 hrs / day x 10 days = 60 hrs of judo instruction by Kano shihan himself and a couple of his top guys. Much longer than I would have dreamed. Very nice info, thanks - your translation is excellent (or, at least the words are clear - I assume they correctly translate the German).

Wouldn't it be great to find a syllabus?

Reinberger wrote:A first find from one of the sources, that wdax suggested:

Vossische Zeitung July 9th, 1933

"Excellency Kano teaches Jiu-Do

From Tuesday, July 11th, to Thursday July 20th there will be held a judo-course under the direction of professor Jngoro Kano, in the afternoons from 2-6 and in the evenings from 8-10 at the sports hall in Karlstrasse 12, at which interested persons can participate for a service charge of 3 marks. The event is meant for the promotion of the international consistent Jiu-Jitsu-sport, and shall serve to prepare new rules for the jiu-jitsu-sport. The course is conducted at the request of the Reichssportkommissar von Tschammer und Osten. Applications requested at Ring, Schiffbauerdamm 18."

I hope, my translation is understandable enough.

And the Karlstrasse 12 is (was) where ?  In what city, Munich ?  Is this still the current Karlstrasse near the Alter Botanischer Garten ?  I am asking because the Schiffbauerdamm is Berlin along the Spree, right ?

I am interested in this for many reasons including some alleging that there would be no evidence that Erich Rahn would have ever met Kanô. This is of personal importance to me. Given Rahn's commitment to jiju-jitsu and also judo still in that time. I would also be curious to know if Alfred Rhode attended it even though he was based at Frankfurt by that time as far as I am aware.

NBK wrote:Wow - 6 hrs / day x 10 days = 60 hrs of judo instruction by Kano shihan himself and a couple of his top guys.  Much longer than I would have dreamed.  Very nice info, thanks - your translation is excellent (or, at least the words are clear - I assume they correctly translate the German).  

Wouldn't it be great to find a syllabus?  

By 1933 ? I don't think that that is even remotely possible. Kanô was an old man who spend most of his time traveling and at embassy receptions. I think what you read there is simply advertising "under the directorship" yes ... but under instructorship, naaah. The teaching will have been done by his secondants like Kotani and Cie. Kanô' would probably be there at the start and closure, must like the Kanchô does at the Kôdôkan kata seminars, and he might have stepped on the tatami now, and them but a politician of his status and schedule full time sports teaching 6 hours/day, no way. Even if signed and stamped by the honorable Josef Goebbels, no way I believe that, not even with pictures, as they likely would all have been taken during the same session in quick succession and not represent a spread over the whole week. Did he even put on a gi at all ?

Sure, I understood the gent probably didn't do it all himself - but still, that's a pretty serious chunk of time on someone's part. Interesting anyhow.

A syllabus would help, perhaps make it clear who did what.

Press reports or perhaps a report to the Japan Olympic Committee would probably find Kano at other events during the week, so surely bouncing around would take him out of daily instruction.

Cichorei Kano wrote:

Reinberger wrote:A first find from one of the sources, that wdax suggested:

Vossische Zeitung July 9th, 1933

"Excellency Kano teaches Jiu-Do

From Tuesday, July 11th, to Thursday July 20th there will be held a judo-course under the direction of professor Jngoro Kano, in the afternoons from 2-6 and in the evenings from 8-10 at the sports hall in Karlstrasse 12, at which interested persons can participate for a service charge of 3 marks. The event is meant for the promotion of the international consistent Jiu-Jitsu-sport, and shall serve to prepare new rules for the jiu-jitsu-sport. The course is conducted at the request of the Reichssportkommissar von Tschammer und Osten. Applications requested at Ring, Schiffbauerdamm 18."

I hope, my translation is understandable enough.

And the Karlstrasse 12 is (was) where ?  In what city, Munich ?  Is this still the current Karlstrasse near the Alter Botanischer Garten ?  I am asking because the Schiffbauerdamm is Berlin along the Spree, right ?

I am interested in this for many reasons including some alleging that there would be no evidence that Erich Rahn would have ever met Kanô. This is of personal importance to me. Given Rahn's commitment to jiju-jitsu and also judo still in that time. I would also be curious to know if Alfred Rhode attended it even though he was based at Frankfurt by that time as far as I am aware.

CK,

the course in question was held in Berlin. As I knew already, there were two courses in Germany with the Japanese delegation in 1933. The first took place in Berlin, the second in Bavaria. As I wrote earlier, the first Austrian yūdansha ever emerged from these events of 1933.

The sports hall at Karlstraße 12, according to "Zentralblatt der Bauverwaltung, Ernst und Korn, 1930, page 855", was a former hall for (mil.) exercise, that underwent "reconstruction for the purpose of physical education". Obviously, what was called "Karlstraße" in 1933 is not what is called "Karlstraße" today, but what is now "Reinhardtstraße". It is in the immediate vicinity of Schiffbauerdamm (within an 8-minute walking distance). Look at this map from 1932.

Of course I remember your interest in Rahn, and the reason for that. You may rest assured, that I will tell you, if I find something relevant.

NBK:

BTW, regarding "a couple of his top guys": In 1933 in Berlin, Kanō-shihan, Kotani and Takasaki were also joined by Matsumae Shigeyoshi. And, regarding the syllabus: If I take into account the technical level in Europe at this time (with the exception of GB and perhaps France) I assume the syllabus consisted mainly of kihon, kihon and kihon.

wdax,

thanks, I tried to include the link yesterday, but I was out, and it did not work correctly.

I do not very much time to dig very deep, but some points:

Here is the Link to the article in the Newspaper vom 9th July 1933:
http://zefys.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de/dfg-viewer/?set%5Bimage%5D=20&set%5Bzoom%5D=default&set%5Bdebug%5D=0&set%5Bdouble%5D=0&set%5Bmets%5D=http%3A%2F%2Fzefys.staatsbibliothek-berlin.de%2Foai%2F%3Ftx_zefysoai_pi1%255Bidentifier%255D%3Dd48bc0ad-ca7b-4c77-a03b-d8d9e9b6e1d6

Vossische Zeitung was located in Berlin ;-)

I find it very interesting, that this was announced as a seminar, which was also about setting of standards for international competition rules. Somewhere I have read a draft of such rules by the european judo-union - located in Berlin (!) - from 1934. So this seminar was clearly in preparation of international Championships.

I found a reference to an article in the "Völkischer Beobachter" from 17. june 1933 about Kano visiting high Nazi-representatives - but not the article yet. :-(

I keep on searching....

@NBK: Kano thanked for the confidence of choosing Tokyo for the olympics 1940, invited the world, peace..... as one expects from someone on such an occasion. Nothing very special, but I will try to get the audio file.

That would make Kano Shihan at least trilingual – Japanese, English, German. He also read Chinese. I have never seen that he spoke any Chinese dialect but have a couple of refs that might shed some light on that.


To go along with you NBK I would add that according to Feldenkrais who met him, kano could speak french as well.

judo66 wrote:That would make Kano Shihan at least trilingual – Japanese, English, German.  He also read Chinese.  I have never seen that he spoke any Chinese dialect but have a couple of refs that might shed some light on that.


To go along with you NBK I would add that according to Feldenkrais who met him, kano could speak french as well.

That is not necessarily true. You do not need to have command of a language to hold a speech in it. Didn't Pope John Paul II typically provide his Easter wishes in 72 languages ? He did not speak 72 languages. I have given speeches in languages I do not speak a word of including Hungarian (which is notoriously difficult) and Romanian. All you need is a speech writer and someone who is bilingual to sit down with you a couple of hours and prep you. It only becomes a problem if the language uses a totally different script, like Arabic, unless the speech is phonetically written out.

Did Kanô truly speak German ? You won't be able to derive that from a speech. Now, if there was a taped spontaneous interview, that's something else, but deriving that from a speech ? No way. Kanô was not some kind of Stephen Hawking-like genius. Hardly. For a Japanese male person born in 1860 and educated, it is quite normal to be able to read bungo and kanbun, nothing special about it, and from there to wenyan isn't that much of a stretch either since the Chinese classics were still a respected standard part of a decent education curriculum. Male Japanese writers in classic times wrote in Chinese anyhow. But one doesn't typically speak it. Compare it to old Latin and Greek, dead languages now, but people who studies all read it and can write in it. You do not normally learn to actually speak it and hold conversations in it, though it is possible if one is really a nerd and obsessed by it.

Cichorei Kano wrote:

judo66 wrote:That would make Kano Shihan at least trilingual – Japanese, English, German.  He also read Chinese.  I have never seen that he spoke any Chinese dialect but have a couple of refs that might shed some light on that.


To go along with you NBK I would add that according to Feldenkrais who met him, kano could speak french as well.

That is not necessarily true. You do not need to have command of a language to hold a speech in it. Didn't Pope John Paul II typically provide his Easter wishes in 72 languages ?  He did not speak 72 languages. I have given speeches in languages I do not speak a word of including Hungarian (which is notoriously difficult) and Romanian. All you need is a speech writer and someone who is bilingual to sit down with you a couple of hours and prep you. It only becomes a problem if the language uses a totally different script, like Arabic, unless the speech is phonetically written out.

Did Kanô truly speak German ?  You won't be able to derive that from a speech. Now, if there was a taped spontaneous interview, that's something else, but deriving that from a speech ?  No way. Kanô was not some kind of Stephen Hawking-like genius. Hardly. For a Japanese male person born in 1860 and educated, it is quite normal to be able to read bungo and kanbun, nothing special about it, and from there to wenyan isn't that much of a stretch either since the Chinese classics were still a respected standard part of a decent education curriculum. Male Japanese writers in classic times wrote in Chinese anyhow. But one doesn't typically speak it. Compare it to old Latin and Greek, dead languages now, but people who studies all read it and can write in it. You do not normally learn to actually speak it and hold conversations in it, though it is possible if one is really a nerd and obsessed by it.

Well the level of his french shouls have been good enough to discuss the efficiency of a strangulation with Fedenkrais.

This is what Feldenkrais says about that.

Then he read on in the book and said, “This is very interesting, but look, what you show here (a choke-hold), it is no good.” I said, “What do you mean it's no good? Why is it no good?” I said, in my experience, I had never had anyone who was capable of getting out of that except by being dead. He said, “hmmmm, no good.” I said, “No good? Well, you show me why it's not good.” The technique was that I get you on the floor, and use my hands against your throat and with the help of a jacket or anything like that plus putting full power into it, you have a minute to live. A minute, a second. You see black immediately. You choke. He said, “Try it on me.” And as I was more powerful than this little man, I thought, with an old man like that I must be gentle. So I did it slowly and then I found that he just didn't mind what I was doing and so I pushed as hard as I could, and believe it or not, I blacked out. I didn't realize actually what was happening. He said, “You see, it's no good.” (ha ha) So I asked him what happened; I didn't know; I saw black. So he explained to me, “Look, strangulation,” he talks in French. “Strangulation, pardon? Comme ça? Pardon, comme ça? You cannot strangle anybody by straightening your arm.” I said, but I always do it and it always works. He said, “Yeah, but ordinary people don't know how to defend themselves. Try it again.” And I wasn't really keen on trying again, because I never had anything like that happen to me before until then I said, “Alright, I'll try again.” And while I did, I saw that he had his hands completely free, and that he used my strength to strangle me. Not just choke me, cut off my air, but cut the flow of blood to the brain. It felt terrible because something on which I relied, my power and the way I did the technique, suddenly I found the more I pushed, the more I strangled myself, I blacked out. Not he. And I didn't notice just because it was so perfectly done, I didn't even realize that he held me. I saw him holding his hands, putting his fingers there, but what do I care? I have him in a grip which I was sure will finish him off. And he said, “You are an intelligent man, I must check this knife technique out. But you can see your book is not very good. But it is very interesting.” It was two o'clock when we finished.



Whether he spoke a perfect french is another story but who can speak a language perfectly?

Just my 2 cts

Cichorei Kano wrote:

judo66 wrote:That would make Kano Shihan at least trilingual – Japanese, English, German.  He also read Chinese.  I have never seen that he spoke any Chinese dialect but have a couple of refs that might shed some light on that.

To go along with you NBK I would add that according to Feldenkrais who met him, kano could speak french as well.

That is not necessarily true. You do not need to have command of a language to hold a speech in it. Didn't Pope John Paul II typically provide his Easter wishes in 72 languages ?  He did not speak 72 languages. I have given speeches in languages I do not speak a word of including Hungarian (which is notoriously difficult) and Romanian. All you need is a speech writer and someone who is bilingual to sit down with you a couple of hours and prep you. It only becomes a problem if the language uses a totally different script, like Arabic, unless the speech is phonetically written out.

Did Kanô truly speak German ?  You won't be able to derive that from a speech. Now, if there was a taped spontaneous interview, that's something else, but deriving that from a speech ?  No way. Kanô was not some kind of Stephen Hawking-like genius. Hardly. For a Japanese male person born in 1860 and educated, it is quite normal to be able to read bungo and kanbun, nothing special about it, and from there to wenyan isn't that much of a stretch either since the Chinese classics were still a respected standard part of a decent education curriculum. Male Japanese writers in classic times wrote in Chinese anyhow. But one doesn't typically speak it. Compare it to old Latin and Greek, dead languages now, but people who studies all read it and can write in it. You do not normally learn to actually speak it and hold conversations in it, though it is possible if one is really a nerd and obsessed by it.

I didn't say it was special for a man educated like Kano to read and write Chinese - I just made the point that he in fact read Chinese.  

You question if he 'truly spoke' German???  Against what measure? How do you intend to prove either way?  

'Speaking' a language is a very vague notion.  You sound like you're making the case that unless someone is perfectly bilingual, they don't 'speak the language'.  That's a pretty high hurdle with which most folks would not agree.    

Anyhow, that's partly why I'm curious whether the radio address, some 20min worth, was a prepared speech or a discussion.  Wdax might have an idea, having heard it.  And if he did speak German, there might be a mention of it in some of the press coverage - I would expect that a German speaking Japanese in the 1930's would be a novelty.  Before I would have expect the use of an interpreter or conversation in English, but now I wonder.

judo66 wrote:Well the level of his french should have been good enough to discuss the efficiency of a strangulation with Fedenkrais.

Hum… Feldenkrais spoke fluent english, you know…

Jihef wrote:

judo66 wrote:Well the level of his french should have been good enough to discuss the efficiency of a strangulation with Fedenkrais.

Hum… Feldenkrais spoke fluent english, you know…

Yes, he did - but the quote is that Kano spoke to him 'in French'.  

Anyhow, how hard can French be, compared to German?

NBK wrote:
I didn't say it was special for a man educated like Kano to read and write Chinese - I just made the point that he in fact read Chinese.  

You question if he 'truly spoke' German???  Against what measure? How do you intend to prove either way?  

'Speaking' a language is a very vague notion.  You sound like you're making the case that unless someone is perfectly bilingual, they don't 'speak the language'.  That's a pretty high hurdle with which most folks would not agree.    

Anyhow, that's partly why I'm curious whether the radio address, some 20min worth, was a prepared speech or a discussion.  Wdax might have an idea, having heard it.  And if he did speak German, there might be a mention of it in some of the press coverage - I would expect that a German speaking Japanese in the 1930's would be a novelty.  Before I would have expect the use of an interpreter or conversation in English, but now I wonder.

Hey, don't blame me, I didn't start it. You love the expression "invented tradition", well consider that claiming some exceptional language ability to Kanô fits in well with the Kôdôkan's "invented tradition" of attributing to Kanô some genius-like abilities. I am not at all suggesting you have any motive or so, no, no, not at all. I just meant that maybe in the light of these problems with the person of Kanô maybe a more carefully worded reaction would have been more opportune, such as for example, his willingness to express himself abroad by using the local language in speeches. That would be a small yet significant difference, and something that is easier to underwrite by the material so far provided in this thread.

I think you know very well what I mean by "truly spoke German", and I think you know very well that I am not demanding that he should have been able to recite Schiller and Goethe back to front with a complete grammatical analysis. On the other hand having the ability to say "Danke schön" or "Ein, zwei, drei" or "Ich bin ein Berliner" seems a bit weak to me to serve as evidence that someone "speaks German". I know more expressions in Russian than that, and trust me, I absolutely do not speak Russian. I don't think it is unreasonable to require at least some textual comprehension in the other language, some dialogue that is not scripted, rather than just holding a speech of which we do not even know he wrote it. I didn't write this to start a hair-splitting argument. I honestly think  --no hard feelings--  that particularly knowing how much nonsense the Kôdôkan has already infused in the persona of Kanô that we shouldn't gratuitously add some more by claiming all kinds of polyglot abilities. There is already enough of this out there and it is not helpful, including about Kanô's supposed science knowledge. I mean ... seriously ?  So, Kanô was schooled in math too. When did Kanô take math ?  When he was 8 years old just like your any average kid today has a course of calculus in grade school. Would you seriously call anyone "schooled in" based on a course he took when he was an 8-year old kid ?  Kanô's writings are riddled with flaws. It is quite shocking that a supposed genius working on that kind of material does not seem to have had any, or at least not much knowledge of Bernouilli and that knowledge had been available for more than 130 years.

Much of Kanô's work is mediocre at best, most of what exists in jûdô is not original but borrowed and his "creative input" is limited to compiling material thought out by others, his writings are repetitive, his views part pragmatic, part naive and utopian. Virtually no serious work on pedagogy even mentions Kanô. The only people who use Kanô as a reference for anything are jûdôka or those researching the Olympic movement, or other gendai budô since Kanô as a politician was important enough to be used to give some legitimacy to a book by having him write a foreword. Kanô as a person was excellent for others to use in name dropping due to his position and connections, and this was hence often done. But with regard to martial arts, he was a drop-out in several jûjutsu schools and finally stuck with two schools that by that time were largely depleted of any realistic fighting skills but which had instead evolved into largely theatrical and aesthetic performance skills with doubtful application in a realistic situation. In Kôdôkan texts this is usually twisted into euphemistic statements such as "he researched many different ryû and finally retained the two most valuable ones". In reality, Kanô failed to progress and finally found a niche in two schools you could practice without basically doing any martial arts. There is not evidence whatsoever that Kanô ever still studied the full curriculum of Kitô-ryû with sword fighting, bôjutsu, etc. It is likely at that time and where he studied the only thing the school still included where the 21 techniques retained in Koshiki-no-kata. Literally any person who today would claim to be a jûjutsu master when scrutiny turns out there is not a single improvised attack and nothing but 21 scripted techniques would be called fake and be the subject of ridicule. Kanô thus chose a jûjutsu school he could practice by nothing else but using his mouth and his pen. One of the main reasons many of these schools had schisms is because some of those who still had fighting skills and interest left because they no longer could find themselves into the merely theatrical and aesthetic performance art that some of these schools had become.

It is in this context that it is "unfortunate" at the least to also superimpose some language abilities of which so far there is no evidence. I do not have to prove that Kanô did not speak German. I am not on a quest "to get Kanô". On the contrary. My point is and always has been that Kanô has sufficient merit without having to add all kinds of things that are hardly certain at all.

I am just cautious given many such myths in jûdô. I do not know if Hanon-sensei or Henri Ellis-sensei are listening or reading, but another such case is Abe Kenshirô. There are millions of people who claim to have been deshi of him and they will eloborate about all the instructions and stories he supposedly confined to them, whereas those who really were his students affirm that the man's English ability was very limited. There's a Fukuda Keiko page somewhere where recently I was reading how at one instance Fukuda-sensei would have said so and so, and my first reaction was "really ?"  I found it very hard to believe and I have never heard Fukuda express herself in a single complete English sentence. Fukuda's English in my personal experience was limited to mono-words and sentences existing out of two words kind of: "good judoka, good judoka" and "practice, practice, more practice". In fact there existed so much miscommunication among pupils about how a certain movement in kata was because unless you were more or less fluent in Japanese that level of communication --in my personal experience--  did not exist. And yet, you will have people claim that Fukuda spoke fluent English, and they even have ultimate proof of that: "she published two books in English !!"  Right. Same with Hirano Tokio-sensei.

Someone else made a reference to Kanô, and French. Now, I was mostly thinking of his German. The example of Feldenkrais indeed gives more reliable detail because it indicates interaction in a foreign language, and discussion implying there also needs to be understanding, and improvisation. I was only pointing out that one can't derive the same information simply from a speech. It may, however, also be possible like wdax suggest that Kanô was able to express himself in German, or not. We simply can't conclude it merely from a speech. I have seen some incredible language-learning abilities especially with Chinese students. I studied Japanese linguistics and classical Japanese in Japan and in my class there were a handful of Chinese students. It was unreal. Their memory was so incredibly trained + the advantage they had from knowing thousands of hanzi that it was impossible to keep up with them. It was one big lesson in frustration for me and most Western students. The English in Kanô's diaries, which he did write himself is quite good, and we know from early publications in Kokushi that he lectured about Shakespeare and illustrated his articles with examples of English grammar. English is a Germanic language, thus it is not that far removed from having developing an understanding of basic Germanic grammar, although German has some particularly hard things to master for a foreigner unless your native language is one that still actively and extensively uses things such Dativ, Genitiv and similar things or even more extensive like in Finnish or Hungarian. But for most other this is hard in German to master properly, which is of course very frustrating.

Now with regard to Feldenkrais, this isn't as straightforward either ...   Someone has already pointed out that Feldenkrais spoke English too. Now, I wasn't there, and Feldenkrais obviously was. In all fairness, I have quoted Feldenkrais before myself, but ... and that is not just me ... but I believe that our friend Joseph Svinth has commented about this several times ... Feldenkrais was also known to take a lot of "liberties" in his writings. I mean ... really a lot. But of course he was there and I wasn't so by all means, yes, one has to at least seriously consider what he wrote. It would be good if there was, however, additional confirmation from others. Kanô was inspired by a number of French pedagogues and pacifist thinkers, some of whom were outspoken socialists, and I do not know if that is the reason why this information is suppressed in most sources about Kanô. I do not know in what language the communication between Kanô and them took place though. Was it in French ?  Was it in English ?  Was it through an interpreter ?  I don't know. The more important people are the more "abilities" are bestowed more as a marketing tool for organizations benefitting from such statements than really reflecting such abilities. Putin now has an 8th dan in judo, a 9th dan in Taekwondô, even Obama has a black belt in taekwondô. I can't believe for the life of me that Obama ever sought or asked for a black belt in taekwondô so it is the issuing organization that "gives something away" in order to then claim that privilege and associate itself with the important person bestowing the honor on. Call it "reverse name-dropping", call it "piggy backing", call it "credit-whoring practice" whatever.

Now, there are others more or less contemporaries of Kanô but sometimes in totally different areas where there is actual evidence of unusual abilities, but this then is usually also reflected by superior abilities in other areas. One such example, is the legendary German conductor Wilhelm Furtwängler. There exist tapes recordings of him giing extensive interviews, in German, in French, in English, in Italian, where there is direct interaction, not just a speech. Impressive, but that genial ability is also reflected in his conducting, and writing. Besides he wrote his own compositions, and even though not embraced by everyone, unlike Kanô these were not just throwing together stuff that was mostly and essentially created by others.

I am not arguing that Kanô was completely incompetent either. All I am saying is that Kanô or his work is worthy of studying just for what it is without having to add these "invented tradition"-like abilities. I think that one is doing a great disservice to Kanô by bestowing all kinds of things on hims like the Kôdôkan does. If one truly respects Kanô, or Fukuda, or whoever, take them for what they truly are or were, people imperfect just like we, with flaws, insecurities, failures, and all other kinds of characteristics that human beings have.

Oh, and by the way someone mentioned that the press was already Nazi-controlled and one could not write or publish anything critical. That was so in relative terms but not so in absolute terms. Furtwängler is a good example of this too. In "Der Fall Hindemith" he wrote a scathing open letter that was even published on the front page of Newspapers in November 1934 (http://www.hindemith.info/leben-werk/biographie/1933-1939/leben/der-fall-hindemith/) lashing out against the Nazi's attempts to control art and ban performances of Jewish composers etc. Now, one can surely argue that if anyone else would have written such a letter, that he would have been liquidated, and that the only reason that Furtwängler got away with it was because he was Furtwängler and the leading German music artist and a national symbol, etc, sure, but it still did take place and represents a factual instance of someone openly critical and attacking Goebbels and the Nazi propaganda.

I still have no idea where this thread is going? I am aware debating is a must, research is a must however my point here is even with debate and research due to human incapabilities to be objective, so much of this thread is more or less fairy tale stuff.

I have just read the last post made by CK sensei who writes much on the myths surrounding kano, his post could be interpreted as a personal attack on kano Shihan yet because I know how CK sensei works and writes I know this is not the case.
CK then gives examples in relation to similar people such as Abe and Fukuda sensei. An awful lot of literature related to kano and the fact some one else wrote he could fly are NOT from the hand nor mouth of Kano himself BUT are inventions and tales written by OTHERS about him. Just as this thread started, such a debate regarding Hitler meeting Kano Shihan can be made into all sorts of fabrications.
Add to that the period this meeting took place and the regime it took place under I have asked the same question over and over again, unless one was there it is going to be impossible to write what discussion these two men had and its content. Even a so called recorded meeting could be questioned as Hitler and his vile henchmen would certainly write what they desired to be read. This is NOT a question of trying to stifle debate, prevent research or find the truth, not at all. To me with my understanding of this period and the people involved I wish to have in this thread my point that the truth is always relative and I cannot see how we will ever know what was spoken between these two people. Further have a carful look at the direction this thread is going. Kano shihan did not place himself on a pedestal, others did. To that end it is very unjust to knock Kano off a pedestal he didn't stand on.

Mike

There doesn't seem to be a meeting between Kano and Hitler, but Kano met the German national sports executive, the highest official of the government (surely along with a number of lesser authority figures and politicians). He wasn't in Germany on a lark, he was on a mission. I am sure he would have met Hitler if that was part of the program, but there is no evidence so far that he did.

And I would think that most people would agree that it seems to note that Kano 'spoke German to some degree', with or without the caveat that there are limited examples. It would make sense - he studied in Germany for about a year and a half. It doesn't make him a language paragon - it makes him normal.

As far as the exchange in French with Feldenkrais goes, Feldenkrais' description doesn't sound like much, just short phrases (and the way he writes makes me wonder if the majority of the conversation isn't in English, with French phrases 'do this' inserted or some such, [I don't speak French] followed by a physical demonstration.....).

NBK wrote:As far as the exchange in French with Feldenkrais goes, Feldenkrais' description doesn't sound like much, just short phrases (and the way he writes makes me wonder if the majority of the conversation isn't in English, with French phrases 'do this' inserted or some such, [I don't speak French] followed by a physical demonstration.....).    

My feeling exactly; reads to me as if Kano emphasized a few words (strangulation) by using french here and there.

But Kano did meet Hitler during the Berlin Olympics 1936 along all the other OC representatives? This is similar to everybody in OC meeting the premier of Russia in 1980.

There is not much evidence that Kano did meet many heads of state? He was influential in sports, but politically not?

wdax wrote:I don´t think, that judo was the reason, they met.... I´m sure it was about olympics, but if anyone has time, he could check the german newspaper achives.

Here is the overall situation.

Berlin was chosen to host the 1936 olympics in May 1931. In 1933, after Hitler took over, a boycotte of the olympics was suggested at the IOC meeting in Vienna in june 1933, if I recall it correctly berfore Kano visited Berlin. At the Vienna meeting, Nazi-Germany guaranteed, that there will be no racism etc. in the games. This declaration finally avoided the boykott.

Tokyo was already candidate city to host the 1940 olympics and Kano the key figure of the bid. He was one of the most influental members of the IOC, being a member for 25  years.

To be succsessful in the 1940 bid, Kano needed support from Germany, and Berlin needed support from Japan to avoid the boycott.

Of course there were some Judo activities in Berlin 1933 - a picture of Kano giving instructions is included in the book "Kodokan Judo" - but the reason to meet Hitler surely was not judo....

.. and then there was racism in the games. The Germans carefully timed it so that The Americal delegation had already sailed so boycott was not anymore possible.

"Nonetheless, said Kano, 'Should Mussolini be approached in the right way, he will be willing to throw his influence in favor of Japan. Mussolini is a very great man and has sympathetic understanding of this country and its interests.' " (Japan Times, November 22, 1933, page 2)

NBK wrote:
he studied in Germany for about a year and a half.  It doesn't make him a language paragon - it makes him normal.    

Huh ?  

The only evidence I am aware of , of Kanô being academically exposed to the language of German was in 1873-1874, so as a 14-year old during his time at the Ikuei-Gijuku at Karasumori-chô, in Tôkyô. However, it is unclear how serious that was and how much was retained. In comparison, we got 5 languages in school of which I had 4 by the time I was 14 years old. To get an idea of what it takes at that age to acquire the ability to speak a foreign language ... by the time I was 17 I had received 8 years of instruction in my second language, and 5 years of instruction in my third language, and several years of Latin. Additionally we had German for two years (15-17 years old), and we could not use the language. I finally did because I read a lot of German (many writers such as Goethe, and a lot of music literature) and because I studied there for a year doing research. I also spent 2 years in Italy and graduated with a degree, and I certainly would not claim to speak Italian despite my strong background in other Romance languages (I am fluent in French and and read and understand Latin). I am 200% certain that none of the other foreign students in my group (who did not live in a country where Italian was spoken) would claim to speak Italian either, not even in a limited way as they all understood a lot less than I did, since none of them had a basis in French and Latin, unlike me.

However, as said, it remains possible that Kanô was able to express himself in German. But apart from all the conjecture, the only evidence that would support this is an unknown amount and extent of German he might have received and studied at ages 13-14 years.

If with "he studied in Germany for about a year and a half" you are making a reference to Kanô's September 1889 to January 1891 European trip, he studied with Gréard and Buisson in Paris, but there are no details how serious that study was. It is nevertheless the closest that he came to, to "studying" during that trip, which is also reflected in the strong influence that both had on the development of his ideas, influence that was pedagogic, pacifist and socialist. It is known that he "attended lectures", which presumably would have been taught in French. But it is not known if he actually attended these on a regular basis and as an ordinary and anonymous student, or whether this was merely some formal visit from a foreign dignitary that might have occurred merely once of twice. During that 1 1/4 year in Europe it seems that he was not a student as how that concept would be understood by most people or like anyone else who would call himself a student. He spent time also in many other cities than Paris including Lyon, Berlin, and others. During that time he would "pay visits to academic institutions", but it is unclear if this involved more than guided tours, lunches, receptions and the kind of things Kanô usually engaged in rather than what is understood under "studying". Most texts detailing that period mention typical Kanô-activities such as that he was "inspecting the educational systems there. He made onsite inspections of academic institutions in those cities, making the most of the pupil network built at Gakushûin and classmate network at the University of Tôkyô. He met with Tanaka Fujimarô, the diplomatic representative to France, and Duke Saionji, the diplomatic representative to Germany. In Berlin, he expanded his network further by staying at a hotel together with Japanese students studying in Germany, including Goto Shinpei, who later became a famous politician. After that, he visited the southern part of Germany, Switzerland, Austria, Russia, Sweden, Denmark, Holland and England."

So, once more this is not the sort of activity associated with an academic commitment of a student, which normally would imply: attending courses, seminars, doing individual or group projects, studying and taking exams, with the results of those exams translating in either passing and obtaining a degree or failing it. Instead, we see a description of something that more realistically would worded as "diplomatic activities", such as networking, meeting people and being treated as an aristocrat or special guest".  Considering the transport options of those days of those 15 months considerable time likely was put into traveling. when you critically look at Kanô's activities they remind more of the sort of thing you might associate with Paris Hilton or any other socialite than with an academic.

Much of what Kanô did both academically and in jûdô reminds of what you sometimes hear in relationship to royals in whose résumé you read that they attended a prestigious university such as Cambridge, Oxford, Harvard, Stanford or Yale, i.e. no other students ever saw them in any class, lecture or seminar, no thesis or academic work can be traced in any library, no one ever saw them take any exam, yet ... they graduated with a degree usually in international politics, economy or business, or alternatively some skill-certificate such as captain of a ship or fighter or helicopter pilot from some military institution and achieve some insanely high rank (major general or lieutenant General) by the age of 25 ... without any battle (or other) experience whatsoever. With Kanô we see that oftentimes vague statements are used such as "studied in", but with any detail such as what institution, what course, with which professors, at which department, graduating at what date, with what qualification or if he did not why not, having been omitted. One can argue that he wasn't in a degree program, fair enough, but even so then there is research output or other activities that demonstrate such link with a specific institution or mentor. Since Kanô has long been dead and was a public figure, there can't be an issue of privacy or protection against identity theft that would justify such vagueness.

I would suggest avoiding terms such as 'normal'. I have had my share of experiences with regard to mysterious language abilities. I remember in the US one day a new secretary being introduced to my colleagues and then to me with the enthusiastic comments that she also spoke French and German. Of course, none of the idiots who introduced her spoke any of the languages themselves, so I without any evil intent just spontaneously threw out some very basic sentences first in German then French about where she learnt these skills of where she used to live. I can assure you that it was a very awkward moment since the woman of course didn't speak nor even understood a word of either German or French. While I can understand that one is taken aback if suddenly confronted with a foreign language, and might have to get in the right mind setting, I spoke slowl, enunciated well, used simple every day words and about an expectable context (not quantum mechanics). Surprise mostly affects the ability to respond correctly as one might have to look for the right vocabulary and grammar, but it affects passive knowledge and understanding a lot less.

Syd Hoare in one of his articles, however, does suggest that during that 1 year and a quarter which Kanô spent in Europe, that of the part he spent in Germany, he would have devoted an undefined period of time in Berlin to having studied German. If so, this would give credence to your suggestion that Kanô might have been able to speak German, and would have spoken the language to some extent. Unfortunately, Hoard usually does not reference his work other than including a general bibliography at the end of his papers, so it is impossible to assess how much of what he wrote there is based on facts or interpretation.

A lot of speculation...

I think it´s about two years ago, when I heard the radio speech - and as a native german a can tell you, that his german was very good (as written before).

I heard a lot of people trying to speak german and strugging with german pronounciation (as I struggle with foreign languages). Specially japanese have problems with it. I knew that Kano stayed several times in Germany and also that he learned german as a kid. And I can really tell, how surprised I was about his german.

Of course I´m sure he read his speech from a paper, and of course I´m sure, that someone else corrected it before. But his pronounciation was so clear, that it is impossible, that he learned it without understanding. Not such a long speech. He spoke slowly, but very clear.

This was BTW not the first time he was in the german radio. In 1933 there was a almost 20 min. talk between him and someone from the government about his impressions of sport in Germany. It is reported, that Kano spoke some parts in japanese, some in german and some in english. But sadly no recording survived. But it seems clear to me, that when it was difficult he preferred japanese or english.

I meant Kano also 'studied' in Germany during that yr and a half abroad.

Also when he moved to Tokyo as a child, one of the first schools he attended was a private juku where he studied under a couple of foreigners - German and Dutch - cramming English and .... German IIRC  *

I'm traveling don't have materials.

* edited to acknowledge ref to CK earlier, more detailed note on this fact. Been reading on a smart phone, hard to see anything in context.

wdax wrote:A lot of speculation...

I think it´s about two years ago, when I heard the radio speech - and as a native german a can tell you, that his german was very good (as written before).

I heard a lot of people trying to speak german and strugging with german pronounciation (as I struggle with foreign languages). Specially japanese have problems with it. I knew that Kano stayed several times in Germany and also that he learned german as a kid. And I can really tell, how surprised I was about his german.

Of course I´m sure he read his speech from a paper, and of course I´m sure, that someone else corrected it before. But his pronounciation was so clear, that it is impossible, that he learned it without understanding. Not such a long speech. He spoke slowly, but very clear.

This was BTW not the first time he was in the german radio. In 1933 there was a almost 20 min. talk between him and someone from the government about his impressions of sport in Germany. It is reported, that Kano spoke some parts in japanese, some in german and some in english. But sadly no recording survived. But it seems clear to me, that when it was difficult he preferred japanese or english.

wdax,

Thank you for this, this is very useful to know, because neither me, nor most people participating in the discussion --as far as I am aware-- have actually heard this radio speech. I am glad to learn you did.

Just let me be clear, that I obviously do not have a problem with whether Kanô spoke German or whatever language, I just want some tangible evidence to support either, so that we have more than mere speculation. So, if you have actually heard this yourself together then this is a new and important item here that I am more inclined to accept. Also, the other event you are referring to is new for most of us.

So with that information I no longer see major objections to accept our friend NBK's earlier suggestion and conclusion. If I hadn't played the devil's advocate we might not have known this information, so I just hope that our friend NBK doesn't send a Tomahawk my way. What I like about this is that this shows that it is possible if we keep asking questions that that somewhere here or there might know something we don't know of might have access to some source of do the research that we can't. I just wish that the Kôdôkan would work in this way, then many texts would have been far more useful and with detail. We need to continue to do our best filling in these gaps with as much documentation as we can find to avoid speculation as an end result. But speculation and conjecture is useful as part of the discourse even if just to push others to find sources or evidence to prove the speculation wrong.

wdax, do you have details that give a more factual account of precise what, when (exact dates) and where (exact institutions with addresses) with whom (exact names) Kanô studied while in Germany ? I have been working on similar stuff regarding France. In France his exposure to socialism was quite important but strangely is omitted from most publications. Is this because "socialism" to some people is almost the word of Satan, one can only speculation.

I looked around in some sources I have somewhere on my harddisk. It has to do with the topic of the thread - the question, if Kano and Hitler had met in 1933 (not 1936). I think about three years ago, Dieter Born, who passed away in june this year told me that Kano an met Hitler and that later Kano was interviewed in radio. He was on the way to find out more. To me this is just a sidenote, but not completely uninteresting. Dieter wanted to try to get more information in newspapers and/or radio archives, but we never again talked about it.

Dieter always knew very well what he said - very often he had information from unpublished scientific works because many people asked him about sources.

I was a little bit surprised when I attended a seminar with A. Niehaus im Münster - he was there as a guest-professor - when the assistant of the local professor played Kano´s radio speech from 1936. Even Niehaus never heard it before or knew of it´s existance. I politely asked where he got it from - it was from the German Rundfunkarchiv. So I knew where to ask.

Yesterday I asked the archive to look at their sources. They only have the 1936 speech, but the interview from 1933 is mentioned in their database. It´s from 13. July 1933 and Kano talked with Regierungsrat Ludwig Wilhelm Bartling. But like I said, it´s lost.

I found another reference about the 1933 visit in "Völkischer Beobachter" of (I think 17. june) but the Völkischer Beobachter was a nazi-propganda-paper and is not available online. So it´s a bit more difficult to find it.

Meanwhile I have a little bit more info about the 1936 speech and I will get hands on it in near future. Not everything is in german - I only heard a german part - and it also includes some remarks about Hitler. If I read the description correctly, it could be trilingual with the same content in german, english and japanese.

Cichorei Kano wrote:wdax, do you have details that give a more factual account of precise what, when (exact dates) and where (exact institutions with addresses) with whom (exact names) Kanô studied while in Germany ?  I have been working on similar stuff regarding France. In France his exposure to socialism was quite important but strangely is omitted from most publications. Is this because "socialism" to some people is almost the word of Satan, one can only speculation.

My only source about Kano´s time in Germany 1889-90 is Niehaus. I will have a look later an if I find somthing post it in a new thread.

BTW: Thereare sme old books about sport in Germany in the Kodokan library. According to the friendly lady there, they are from Kano´s private library. But of course, this does not mean, that he could read them....

Some mentions:

________________

“The 150th Anniversary of Japan-Germany Friendship — Opening the Door to the Future through Cultural Exchange”
Monday, December 6, 2010, The Tokai University Club

Germany-Japan judo exchange
Assistant Executive Director Toshiaki Hashimoto:

On January 24, 1861, with the signing of the treaty of friendship, commerce and navigation, exchange began between Japan and what was then Prussia. Master Kano studied in Germany in 1889 (the 22nd year of Meiji) and the following year, when he was 30 years old. At that time, the German Empire and Japan enjoyed an extremely good relationship and many young Japanese traveled to Germany to study. It is well known that the Meiji Constitution was modeled on that of Germany.

Another example of the amicable relationship might be that Ogai Mori, a famous novelist, was sent to Germany to become an army surgeon; he studied medicine in Berlin from 1884 to 1888. Master Kano’s German visit occurred just after Ogai’s return to Japan. During his stay in Germany, Master Kano may have directly taught judo. I would like to elaborate on this based on certain material.

Judo, the bulletin of Kodokan, published in 1933 (July issue, the 8th year of Showa) carried a report entitled “Judo in Europe” written by Keishichi Ishiguro, who went to France in 1924 (the 13th year of Taisho) and worked mainly in Paris. He wrote in the report: “We could definitely say that judo was formally introduced to Europe when Master Kano visited for the first time in September 1889 (the 22nd year of Meiji).” He also points out that after listening to many Japanese students talk about judo and jujitsu, German people were developing a German-style judo. Actually, the German-style judo is said to have existed when Master Kano visited Germany.

In 1933 (the 8th year of Showa), Master Kano traveled to Europe via Siberia with Sumiyuki Kotani, a sixth dan at that time, and Masami Takasaki. By way of Moscow, they arrived in Berlin on June 15, and then toured through Europe including Germany, France, the United Kingdom, and Spain, spreading judo as well as having preliminary discussions to found the International Judo Federation. They also worked hard to bring the Olympics to Japan.

Mr. Takasaki also contributed a travel article entitled “Memoir of Attendance” to the bulletin Judo. According to him, the purpose of Master Kano’s visit to Berlin was to spread judo, promote its proper understanding, and “observe the so-called German-style judo.” Mr. Takasaki’s memoir reports that the German-style judo had become widespread and there were 400–500 clubs throughout the country.

There is a record as well that Master Kano met with officials of the German government including Prime Minister Hitler and exchanged opinions about the educational situation in Japan. Master Kano also visited a sports university, a police academy, and a sports school of the German army where he gave lectures on judo. The record states that Master Kano had a good command of foreign languages, and flexibly changed languages depending on the circumstances, adding explanations in German and/or English while giving lectures in Japanese. During the one-month stay in Berlin, they gave a two-hour lecture twice a day, for 10 days. Mr. Takasaki reported that the attendees’ earnest attitude impressed them as “demonstrating a wonderful German characteristic.” Master Kano also attended the German Sports Festival held in Stuttgart, where he happened to see Hitler making a famous speech in front of the audience. Lecture sessions by Master Kano were held in Munich as well.

Prof. Sumiyuki Kotani accompanying Master Kano wrote an essay, “Travelling Europe accompanying Master Kano,” which was subsequently incorporated in a book entitled The Straight Path of Judo published in 1984 by Baseball Magazine Sha Co., Ltd. Prof. Kotani said that Kitabatake Kyoshin, a future member of the House of Councillors who at the time was a fifth dan and studied in Germany, took them around the sights of Germany. Personally astonished, Master Kano is reported to have mentioned the huge difference between Germany where he had studied at the age of 30 and the same country he visited again in 1933 (the 8th year of Showa) when he was 72 or 73 years old.

Prof. Kotani also wrote: “Young Germans are so enthusiastic that their spirit rises to the skies. We were very surprised to hear that they wanted to learn all the judo techniques from us during our stay in Berlin.” They were police officials in the old-jujitsu style uniform, shorts and a half-sleeved jacket. Yet they stated that jujitsu originated in Germany and then spread to Japan, claiming that they are the founders of jujitsu. This explanation “astounded” Prof. Kotani. However, Master Kano smiled while listening to them and then explained the principles of judo to the German participants. What Prof. Kotani never failed to mention is the deliciousness of the beer that he enjoyed in the beer halls after judo practice. “Unforgettable” is the word he used, which is a universal, timeless impression, I suppose.

To diffuse the spirit of judo throughout the world The founder of Tokai University, Dr. Shigeyoshi Matsumae, who laid a major ideological foundation for the establishment of our NPO, studied abroad in Germany in 1933. While reading his autobiography, I learned that he left Japan on April 1, 1933 and returned on June 1 the following year. He arrived in Berlin in early June and practiced judo in a judo school where Mr. Kitabatake also attended. This is also mentioned at the beginning of the World History of Judo compiled by Sanzo Maruyama. According to the autobiography, Dr. Matsumae worked to arrange a lecture meeting with Master Kano, who explained the essence of judo in German and visited Siemens where Dr. Matsumae studied. Finally, Dr. Matsumae remarks that the development of judo, which was included in the Tokyo Olympic Games and has become a world sport, is attributed to the efforts of Master Kano, the founder of judo.

As you know, Dr. Shigeyoshi Matsumae stood as a candidate for president of the International Judo Federation despite his advanced age. I presume it is because the image of Master Kano held a special place in his heart, as a passionate lecturer on judo in Germany in spite of much more unfavorable travel conditions and his advanced age.

After coming back from Germany, Master Kano sent an article to a Kodokan magazine saying, “Kodokan Judo, or contemporary judo aims at not only physical training but also at an understanding of the fundamental principles of judo and their application to all aspects of social life. It is not just a few people who focus only on the techniques, forgetting the spiritual elements of judo. My work from now on is to encourage people to spiritually apply the judo principles in society. Similarly, Kodokan needs to work harder for that purpose in the future.” I think this is a sincere wish of the founder that the spirit of judo should be spread and applied in society.

It follows then that his wish can also be a guiding principle for the humble activities of our NPO. Pursuing the purpose of judo set by the founder, Master Jigoro Kano, we would like to work together with you. Today, we will hear more about our relationship with Germany, which has had a strong association with the Japanese people including Master Kano. I am trulylooking forward to it.

I would like to once again introduce today’s guest speaker, Mr. Harald Gehrig. Please welcome him with applause. Mr. Gehrig is First Counselor and Head of Cultural Affairs of the Embassy of the Federal Republic of Germany in Japan and works hard for Japan-Germany cultural exchange. Thank you very much, Mr. Gehrig. Ms. Sasaki of the German Embassy will serve as interpreter.
________________


In case somebody is interested in it: detail of a photo from members of the IOC 1936 in Berlin, published in "Olympia Zeitung" from July 31st, 1936. Kanō-shihan arm in arm with another member of the IOC:


There is another photo from the IOC members at a reception by Goering, with Goering, Goebbels, and other members of the NS-government in the issue from August 2nd, 1936. But the picture was taken from behind/above the IOC-group - therefore, like many other participants, Kanō-shihan can't be identified - if he attended at all.