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    Raj Venugopal

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    Post by Raj Venugopal on Fri Nov 22, 2013 7:00 am

    Our club is under-going a bit of a refresh on our club logo, and I am working with a friend to come up with some ideas for Sensei and the senior instructors to consider. It's an exciting branding exercise. Unless this is elsewhere, I would be very interested in seeing what sort of club logos you guys have if you can easily cut and paste the image to this thread as we go through various ideas.
    Cheers!
    BillC
    BillC

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    Post by BillC on Fri Nov 22, 2013 9:20 am

    Gladly ...

    Old
    Club logos/designs San_sh10




    New (courtesy of the father of an anonymous judo forum friend)
    Club logos/designs Sanshi10


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    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

    - Kipling
    JudoSensei
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    Post by JudoSensei on Fri Nov 22, 2013 12:17 pm

    Club logos/designs Ejc
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    Raj Venugopal

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    Post by Raj Venugopal on Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:06 am

    Thanks gents! BillC yours didn't come out on my desktop or blackberry. JudoSensei I know the kanjis on the right are judo. What is on the left?
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    JakubMB

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    Post by JakubMB on Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:33 am

    Here you are.

    Club logos/designs Logo12
    JudoSensei
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    Post by JudoSensei on Sat Nov 23, 2013 1:14 am

    Raj Venugopal wrote:JudoSensei I know the kanjis on the right are judo. What is on the left?
    jujutsu
    Jihef
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    Post by Jihef on Sat Nov 23, 2013 1:18 am

    Here is ours :

    Club logos/designs Yama-Arashi_Brussels
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    Raj Venugopal

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    Post by Raj Venugopal on Sat Nov 23, 2013 1:37 am

    Thanks Jihef! JakubMB, I can't see yours. I'll have to probably check it from another device later tonight. Same as BillC. Very nice; interested so keep them coming...
    icb
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    Post by icb on Sat Nov 23, 2013 1:46 am

    Club logos/designs Krjalo12
    BillC
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    Post by BillC on Sat Nov 23, 2013 3:58 am

    For what it is worth ... I think the logos for many traditional clubs in SoCal have generally been similar to a family crest ... a single symbol ... without checking I am thinking of not only our club but Gardena, Sawtelle, South Bay at least.  No Fuji-san, no samurai, no swords, no dragons, no Japanesy waves or cranes or maneki neko or California rolls.

    The trend among those same clubs might be even greater simplicity, the club's name in kanji for example as Tenri does.  The newly formed Taishi seems to have gone that route as we did.  If you do, find a professional shodo practitioner and pay what it is worth.  

    Of course if you are running some totally untranslatable club name like Raj Venogupal's Judo Club that ain't gonna work.

    Good luck Raj.

    Edit: Oh, and tigers ... including Gary Goltz's nemesis the "tiger roll." Don't go there. Unless you mean the Hanshin kind. Then of course you should go whole hog with yellow and black judogi.

    Rokkō oroshi ni sassō to
    Sōten kakeru nichirin no
    Seishun no haki uruwashiku
    Kagayaku wagana zo Hanshin Tigers
    Ō-ō-ō-ō Hanshin Tigers
    Fure-fure-fure-fure

    Tōshi hatsuratsu tatsu ya ima
    Nekketsu sude ni teki o tsuku
    Jūō no iki takaraka ni
    Muteki no warera zo Hanshin Tigers
    Ō-ō-ō-ō Hanshin Tigers
    Fure-fure-fure-fure

    Tetsuwan kyōda ikuchitabi
    Kitaete koko ni Kōshien
    Shōri ni moyuru eikan wa
    Kagayaku warera zo Hanshin Tigers
    Ō-ō-ō-ō Hanshin Tigers
    Fure-fure-fure-fure


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    Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

    - Kipling
    edbiology
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    Post by edbiology on Sun Nov 24, 2013 3:33 pm

    BillC wrote:Gladly ...

    Old
    Club logos/designs San_sh10




    New (courtesy of the father of an anonymous judo forum friend)
    Club logos/designs Sanshi10
    I like the new one!
    Jonesy
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    Post by Jonesy on Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:01 am

    The logo of the greatest judo dojo outside Japan.

    Club logos/designs Budokwai%20logo


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    medo

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    Post by medo on Mon Nov 25, 2013 2:26 am

    Ah! the Budokwia Very Happy 
    finarashi
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    Post by finarashi on Mon Nov 25, 2013 6:11 am

    medo wrote:Ah! the Budokwia Very Happy 
    Must be the one in New Zealand then Smile


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    Post by medo on Mon Nov 25, 2013 7:04 am

    finarashi wrote:
    medo wrote:Ah! the Budokwia Very Happy 
    Must be the one in New Zealand then Smile

    Now Now there's only one Budokwai the rest are copies Laughing  Train to Victoria, underground to south kensington or cab, excellent training not been for twenty five years but still there and going strong I believe.
    Heisenberg
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    Post by Heisenberg on Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:33 pm

    http://www.tajma-dojo.com
    Tha Academy of Japanese Martial Arts, Gainesville, FL
    Club logos/designs Tajma_header_wide2-e1379781515487

    We chose a simple design that clearly represents judo and its Japanese origins through the cherry blossom. We incorporated a Torii gate to symbolize our sacrilized time spent training.


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    BillC
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    Post by BillC on Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:02 pm

    Heisenberg wrote:http://www.tajma-dojo.com
    Tha Academy of Japanese Martial Arts, Gainesville, FL
    Club logos/designs Tajma_header_wide2-e1379781515487

    We chose a simple design that clearly represents judo and its Japanese origins through the cherry blossom. We incorporated a Torii gate to symbolize our sacrilized time spent training.

    Werner ... not going to pick on you ... others who consider themselves to be much better informed will do that.

    One of the things that interests me about this forum ... and its predecessor ... is the concept of judo myths.  What were people told about the shape of the Kodokan crest?  Why do torii ... a potent symbol in Japanese religion ... show up in a judo context?  Dragons and tigers ... perhaps Chinese ... showing up in representations for Japanese martial arts?

    It seems to me that we are all engaged ... in Japan as well by the way ... in a sort of worldwide game of "telephone."  If we can get the stories and symbols so whacked, is it any surprise that even major details of our martial art ... including the opinion that it is not a martial art ... are not in fact as solid and immutable as we believe?

    Again ... not picking a fight with anyone ... but in some sense it should be surprising that the nagenokata taught at his dojo across town from the Kodokan should be different in key details ... and that the one being held out as "correct" for "competition" is different still.

    Unfortunately there is no way other than embarrassment to find out that it's not a cherry blossom at all.  Just learn a new myth and move on.

    But in kata we have an advantage ... a self-correcting method ... somewhat unique to judo ... does the technique itself work?  If those are all done properly ... the correct response to the correct attack ... they do ... in kata practice and in randori and shiai and in "an emergency situation."  This line of connection should never be broken.


    P.S. - a sympathetic wink Wink here to Western perceptions of Japanese martial arts and its mythical symbolic accompaniment ... the cherry blossom.



    _________________
    Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

    - Kipling
    Heisenberg
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    Post by Heisenberg on Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:25 pm

    BillC wrote:
    Heisenberg wrote:http://www.tajma-dojo.com
    Tha Academy of Japanese Martial Arts, Gainesville, FL
    Club logos/designs Tajma_header_wide2-e1379781515487

    We chose a simple design that clearly represents judo and its Japanese origins through the cherry blossom. We incorporated a Torii gate to symbolize our sacrilized time spent training.

    Werner ... not going to pick on you ... others who consider themselves to be much better informed will do that.

    One of the things that interests me about this forum ... and its predecessor ... is the concept of judo myths.  What were people told about the shape of the Kodokan crest?  Why do torii ... a potent symbol in Japanese religion ... show up in a judo context?  Dragons and tigers ... perhaps Chinese ... showing up in representations for Japanese martial arts?

    It seems to me that we are all engaged ... in Japan as well by the way ... in a sort of worldwide game of "telephone."  If we can get the stories and symbols so whacked, is it any surprise that even major details of our martial art ... including the opinion that it is not a martial art ... are not in fact as solid and immutable as we believe?

    Again ... not picking a fight with anyone ... but in some sense it should be surprising that the nagenokata taught at his dojo across town from the Kodokan should be different in key details ... and that the one being held out as "correct" for "competition" is different still.

    Unfortunately there is no way other than embarrassment to find out that it's not a cherry blossom at all.  Just learn a new myth and move on.

    But in kata we have an advantage ... a self-correcting method ... somewhat unique to judo ... does the technique itself work?  If those are all done properly ... the correct response to the correct attack ... they do ... in kata practice and in randori and shiai and in "an emergency situation."  This line of connection should never be broken.

    The basis for our choice of the shield "cherry blossom" shape was the USJA Senior Handbook, the basis for our curriculum. The wizened elders that wrote that book associated the shape with the art of judo, so it was one of those things I had to memorize for a promotion 20+ years ago. Honestly, I never fact checked it. It has become an internationally recognized symbol for Judo, so it makes sense to organize under a symbol that other judo players who may not know about us will recognize if they see our literature around town or the logo on a members t-shirt.

    The lore of that symbol (as I understand it, anyways) is that it was chosen to represent warriors who were often struck down at the height of their ability, like the cherry blossom falls from the tree in full bloom.

    As for the Torii gate, we don't attach a particular religious belief to the symbol. Religious, or sacred places (like temples) in Japan often have several Torii gates, with each successive gate passed through representing a more sacred space. We borrow the symbol to represent the sacred or spiritual space that is our training time.

    We share a building with a Vietnamese martial art (Cuong Nhu or something like that), and they have a giant dragon painted on the side of the building. I have no idea the significance behind it, but they have a giant old smelly dragon costume that they put in the homecoming parade every year.


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    Post by BillC on Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:53 pm

    [quote="Heisenberg"]
    BillC wrote:

    The basis for our choice of the shield "cherry blossom" shape was the USJA Senior Handbook, the basis for our curriculum. The wizened elders that wrote that book associated the shape with the art of judo, so it was one of those things I had to memorize for a promotion 20+ years ago. Honestly, I never fact checked it. It has become an internationally recognized symbol for Judo, so it makes sense to organize under a symbol that other judo players who may not know about us will recognize if they see our literature around town or the logo on a members t-shirt.

    The lore of that symbol (as I understand it, anyways) is that it was chosen to represent warriors who were often struck down at the height of their ability, like the cherry blossom falls from the tree in full bloom.

    As for the Torii gate, we don't attach a particular religious belief to the symbol. Religious, or sacred places (like temples) in Japan often have several Torii gates, with each successive gate passed through representing a more sacred space. We borrow the symbol to represent the sacred or spiritual space that is our training time.

    We share a building with a Vietnamese martial art (Cuong Nhu or something like that), and they have a giant dragon painted on the side of the building. I have no idea the significance behind it, but they have a giant old smelly dragon costume that they put in the homecoming parade every year.

    Yes, isn't it interesting, these are all common symbols in US dojo ... a mythical aspect to each one ... we are all trying to pass along a tradition that is important in our lives (or more cynically ... some places who use "japanesy" stuff to deceive themselves or others).

    If you think about it, you've probably seen plenty of cherry blossoms ... the petals are even, rounded, and there are five of them. If you have been in Japan you will note their use frequently in family crests ... at the ends of roof tiles for example.

    How does such a misconception occur ... how did that story end up in that book? I can imagine a story like this: "Oh, here's the symbol of the Kodokan, what does it mean?" Without outside information the confident interpreter without outside knowledge might simply conclude "it's Japanese, it must have to do with those things I, as an American, think of as being Japanese so it must be a ... cherry blossom." There may in fact be a cherry blossom-samurai link ... is it in something old like the Hagakure or something new like pre-war State Shinto propaganda ... or something like that I do not remember ... but clearly that is a story that has taken on a life of its own in the American perception of Japanese history ... thus the car wreck of a movie whose excerpt I posted which referred to that myth. Whose myth, where it really came from I don't know. I can just say with some confidence that the movie portrays a history that never was in order to play into the schoolboy samurai-geisha fantasy that many judoka held when they started ... and these familiar American representations play into that.

    Note: The same symbol is sometimes referred to as an imperial chrysanthemum ... that's the myth I was taught before testing time ... but that flower is ... 19 petals I think ... though when I see one around this town I am usually busy sticking my fingers in my ears to prevent a blast of anti-foreign yelling from breaking my eardrums ... or taking cover to duck the occasional tossed beer can.

    Back in CA, I know a guy, a young and skilled young sensei, that mentioned in front of an old Japanese (as in from Japan) senior sensei that he wanted to get the kanji for "bushido" tattooed on his arm ... the depth of misunderstanding about that word left the old guy absolutely mouth-open speechless. And yet, what is often associated with that word in the US are things positive, chivalrous and ancient ... though at least in the last case it is clearly not.

    We inherit lots of myth in judo, club symbols are a reflection of the artist and the person wearing it perhaps more than we realize. Without getting wrapped up in "right" or "wrong" it's probably a good idea to question things from time to time. That's real judo don't you agree?


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    Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

    - Kipling
    Heisenberg
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    Post by Heisenberg on Thu Dec 12, 2013 11:01 pm

    Interesting points. Until now I don't think I've ever placed any distinction on a five-petaled flower vs. a similar one with 8 petals. I guess part of the cultural ignorance that is so easy to fall into objectifying a culture you don't have true ties to.

    Regarding tattooing, I don't think I'll ever understand why non-Japanese get Kanjii tattooed on their bodies. Especially with most of them not being able to read Kanjii. I had to laugh when I saw a spoofed photo of a young Asian girl with the English word "water" written on her.


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    Post by BillC on Fri Dec 13, 2013 2:05 am

    Heisenberg wrote:Interesting points. Until now I don't think I've ever placed any distinction on a five-petaled flower vs. a similar one with 8 petals. I guess part of the cultural ignorance that is so easy to fall into objectifying a culture you don't have true ties to.

    Regarding tattooing, I don't think I'll ever understand why non-Japanese get Kanjii tattooed on their bodies. Especially with most of them not being able to read Kanjii. I had to laugh when I saw a spoofed photo of a young Asian girl with the English word "water" written on her.

    Yes, regarding tattoo ... it's the tramp-stamps of "crazy diarrhea" and "thank you, come again" that bust me up.  Odds are that someone reading this has a "kanji" tattoo on their delicate white ass (or chocolate brown booty, we are all Americans regardless, war upon war have proven that) without really grasping the concept of Chinese and Japanese orthography.  There used to be a trend on the previous forum ... do you remember ... where people would ask "how to I write XXXXX in kanji" related to martial arts because they wanted to get a tattoo on some part of their body ... or some inscription on their hard-won mudansha belt.  I never ... yet ... have gotten anyone to write my sensei's favorite gag which translates as "I am wearing my little sister's underpants" ... but someday I will.

    Regarding ties to a culture ... yes, you do.  You have many more ties to judo culture than you admit.  That you ... and I ... don't get everything according to typical Japanese expectations .. that we bump into the furniture so to speak ... is OK as far as I am concerned.  Typical Japanese on the street don't know shit about martial arts to start with.

    Among the problems we have is that our action and our judo doesn't fit ... like Tokyo Disneyland it's bigger than the 80% scale allowed ... so when we bump into stuff on Space Mountain it's not for lack of participation ... the geniuses just assumed that we would all fit the Japanese scale of the '60s.

    Similarly it's not your fault or mine that "Oh, sensei" Uncle Phil ... or whoever it was ... didn't get the manual right.  They did the best they could.  If there is an important message in the symbolism of certain things then it is incumbent on those in possession of those things to explain them ... not just quietly grumble that the rest of us are too stupid.

    The same goes for judo in general ... that was my earlier point.  No sense complaining that the IJF doesn't know dick-all about judo when no one has bothered to teach it ... or to learn it in the first place ... even in Japan.

    So please add a couple of tigers, a few dragons and a big ninja sword to your logo ... just to piss people off.  I will salute!

    P.S. - when you bump into Dale or Betty, please tell them I said hello.  It's been 27 years since I saw them last down in Orlando-land but I have never forgotten the encouragement that they gave me.


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    Oh, East is East and West is West, and never the twain shall meet,
    Till Earth and Sky stand presently at God's great Judgment Seat;
    But there is neither East nor West, Border, nor Breed, nor Birth,
    When two strong men stand face to face, though they come from the ends of the earth!

    - Kipling
    Heisenberg
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    Post by Heisenberg on Fri Dec 13, 2013 2:35 am

    I saw Betty about a month ago at a clinic at her dojo, Metro Orlando. She is 6 Dan now. A wonderful lady.

    I last saw Dale at his Orlando Judo Invitational Shiai in April. He was very busy so we didn't get a chance to talk.  

    Will say hello if I see either of them. If you're ever in town look us up; we're about 100 miles north in Gainesville. Could set you up with a guest spot at UF Judo Club.


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    Post by JudoSensei on Fri Dec 13, 2013 10:01 am

    More information explaining the Kodokan symbol and the possible origin of the cherry blossom myth is available at http://judoinfo.com/kdk.htm

    Comments/corrections are welcome.


    Last edited by JudoSensei on Sat Dec 14, 2013 9:47 am; edited 2 times in total
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    Post by DougNZ on Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:13 am

    JudoSensei wrote:More information explaining the Kodokan symbol and the possible origin of the cherry blossom myth is available at http://judoinfo.com/kdk.htm.


    Link doesn't work for me.
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    Post by Jihef on Fri Dec 13, 2013 7:17 pm

    DougNZ wrote:
    JudoSensei wrote:More information explaining the Kodokan symbol and the possible origin of the cherry blossom myth is available at http://judoinfo.com/kdk.htm.


    Link doesn't work for me.
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