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    Trouble against big dudes

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    KShaft

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    Post by KShaft on Wed May 07, 2014 6:41 am

    I started training back at home in Avon Ohio as I moved back from Columbus and the OSU judo club.

    Im 165 lbs and about 30 lbs overweight so Im stocky but short at 5'3".

    So I go up against some advanced belts a black and brown. Both of em probably outweigh me by 100 lbs give or take and were probably 6 foot or so.
    I cant move em hardly at all. I try seio nage and hip throw, and try moving toward the uke after that fails with the technique that you turn and its almost like a tackle with you wrapping your leg around the back of his leg and drive him back, or the one where you drop down (from seio nage position) and grab the leg as your knee touches hooking around the outside and fall back. Neither of these had any success. I mean it barely moved em, and one maki komied me because I tried to counter and hurt my shoulder. Pissed me off as he fell hard on me and did hurt me.

    Now I had sparred against guys more advanced and could move em around and put em in danger at least and thrown the ones my size or somewhat bigger, but these guys it was very difficult to move em at all and I dont have any experience trying to throw guys this big(resisting) not to mention at this rank.

    Any suggestions?
    Davaro
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    Post by Davaro on Wed May 07, 2014 6:56 am

    The size and grade differences are pretty vast. I don't think you can really do much about it at this point my friend. Having said that, we don't really know much about you and your experience. Based on your descriptions etc, it seems pretty apparent that you are a relative novice (forgive me if this is incorrect) and are asking help to overcome guys that far outweigh you both in size and experience.

    The only really constructive advice I can give you is train more, lose those 30 pounds, and try going up against people more suited to you. Against the big guys, just keep trying and learn by what does not work and what does.

    The guy that did the makikomi on you was probably out of line but every dojo has one hey?

    Good luck!


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    Stacey
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    Post by Stacey on Wed May 07, 2014 7:01 am

    1. do not try sacrifice throws against people who can squash you by virtue of size alone

    2. do not expect to move a higher rank, especially brown/black, unless s/he wants to let you move him/her. They do not know how accomplished you are at judo; they just know what color belt you're wearing. Chances are, until they are comfortable understanding your abilities, they will not be easily moved. They will, however, see how well you can or can't take a fall.

    3. 100 lbs difference is a huge difference. Even for evenly ranked people, it's a huge difference. When you do move them, you will have done it honestly and through good technique, not through brute force.

    4. Ask about other backwards throws, and do not try drop throws against people who can squish you by virtue of size alone. Big guys do not like squishing little judoka. They will be much less anxious to move with you if you're risking getting squished. Squishy-nage = uke with big ouchie. Trust me; been there, done that, still trying to re-inflate.
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    KShaft

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    Post by KShaft on Wed May 07, 2014 8:22 am

    Davaro wrote:The size and grade differences are pretty vast. I don't think you can really do much about it at this point my friend. Having said that, we don't really know much about you and your experience. Based on your descriptions etc, it seems pretty apparent that you are a relative novice (forgive me if this is incorrect) and are asking help to overcome guys that far outweigh you both in size and experience.

    The only really constructive advice I can give you is train more, lose those 30 pounds, and try going up against people more suited to you. Against the big guys, just keep trying and learn by what does not work and what does.

    The guy that did the makikomi on you was probably out of line but every dojo has one hey?

    Good luck!

    Well they did that intentionally. I mean the pairing. I was perplexed by it myself. I think its for control. It wasnt round robin. Like I said I can move and throw some of the advanced guys at the club because they dont outweight me by 100 lbs. They are close or maybe 20-40 lbs heavier. So this is new to me and as Stacie said its almost absurd to try to throw some of these guys that are this big, AND have been doing it for years. Im just wondering what to do as I am clueless against guys this big. Im thinking maybe extended leg hip throw at most for throws and takedowns and sweeps for the most part.
    Cichorei Kano
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    Post by Cichorei Kano on Wed May 07, 2014 8:49 am

    Develop galactic-sized ki ... simple.


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    JudoSensei
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    Post by JudoSensei on Wed May 07, 2014 9:06 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:Develop galactic-sized ki ... simple.

    I have a big ki but I don't use it on dudes.
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    DougNZ

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    Post by DougNZ on Wed May 07, 2014 9:53 am

    JudoSensei wrote:
    I have a big ki ...

    Says you!!!


    Last edited by DougNZ on Wed May 07, 2014 11:20 am; edited 1 time in total
    Steve Leadbeater
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    Post by Steve Leadbeater on Wed May 07, 2014 10:10 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:Develop galactic-sized ki ... simple.

    I use my Ki for opening doors...............  Very Happy 
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    KShaft

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    Post by KShaft on Wed May 07, 2014 11:52 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:Develop galactic-sized ki ... simple.

    Now hold on... I was told it wasnt the size of the ki but how you use it!

    are you telling me I was lied to all these years....?
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    tafftaz

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    Post by tafftaz on Wed May 07, 2014 10:08 pm

    KShaft wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:Develop galactic-sized ki ... simple.

    Now hold on... I was told it wasnt the size of the ki but how you use it!

    are you telling me I was lied to all these years....?


    Yep
    Davaro
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    Post by Davaro on Thu May 08, 2014 7:42 am

    Wow, that escalated quickly.



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    Stacey
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    Post by Stacey on Thu May 08, 2014 7:49 am

    Ki always escalates quickly with the right stimulation
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    TheWizardofOdds

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    Post by TheWizardofOdds on Fri May 09, 2014 8:31 am

    I'm taller than the OP at 5'9/5'10" but weigh around the same sometimes down to 150 sometimes up to 168lbs. Either way, I'm the lightest at my dojo by a long way so understand the dilemma of how to compete against the big men.

    In Newaza I actually found the ippon series book Osaekomi by Kashiwazaki to be a great help. He explains about your arm being much less powerful than the big mans but your leg is much stronger than his arm. In his words of course. Although that much is obvious, if you think about it constantly in ground fighting and apply full body power against one of his arms or hips or whatever it can lead to some surprising outcomes. I've come on a lot in that respect. It also helps of course to maintain good defence, be nimble and spot opportunities quickly, and also to learn the basics well. A lot of people miss the obvious pin/hold whilst trying for sangaku-jime(sp?) or some other flashy move. Tachiwaza on the other hand...

    There's been some good posts in other threads about how draining it can be to hold a big man off, even if you are quick on your feet and its a lot of mental pressure knowing that if your osoto-gari fails you are going to be absolutely slammed. At the moment I'm trying things like pulling the sleeve to off balance and then use superior speed and sometimes technique instead of just going in for the lapel and sleeve and being gripped in turn the same way. I find that as soon as the opponent gets the lapel and sleeve it is very difficult indeed to succeed. There is very little GI to grip as it's completely filled, I'm out-strengthed in close, concentrating in holding off rather than attacking.

    One good thing though: you'll appreciate all the practise against big strong dudes if you ever compete. Fighting against people your own weight you will seldom be as out -strengthed as you are at the club. All the best and if you find any other good tips, let me know!
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    Raj Venugopal

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    Post by Raj Venugopal on Fri May 09, 2014 11:24 pm

    Taller and bigger guys like to overgrip me (I'm 5'8" and fight -73). Instead of always fighting that off, I will sometimes let it sit and go for ura-nage on their turn in. Sometimes if they go for tai-otoshi with that overgrip I will step over and drive hard for kosoto-gari to their rear, or will continue rotating for yoko-guruma. One of our club seniors fights at -81 and came against a guy who was +120 at a tournament this spring ... the lesson for all of us was his utter fearlessness. His brother is a former national champion in 100+ so he is used to fighting big guys, but it should be said that fighting monsters regularly builds courage that is nothing short (pun intended) of inspiring.
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    Anatol

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    Post by Anatol on Fri May 09, 2014 11:56 pm


    Big guys can be challanging




    .


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    GregW

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    Post by GregW on Sat May 10, 2014 8:48 am

    In the club where I trained a few years ago, my training partner was very often a really big guy. I was 51 and he was 44. I'm around 91 kg and he was around 142 or so. The rest of the club was mostly kids, teenagers, and guys in their early 20s, so we were often paired together because we were the two biggest, oldest guys. We did uchikomi, nagekomi, newaza, and kata together (kata guruma was almost impossible for me to lift him!)

    My partner was a brickmason and was amazingly strong. He could literally just pick me up off my feet like a child. We were about the same skill level and we tested for shodan a few weeks apart. I learned that I could throw him in randori fairly successfully with speed and agility. Although I'm not as fast as a 20 year-old, I was faster than my partner. I could often throw him with tai-otoshi, but it was helpful to take my hikite hand and transfer it over to the other lapel. I also found success with seoi-otoshi and uchi makikomi. It was like throwing a refrigerator, though! I threw him with hane-makikomi once and I thought it would register with the government's seismographs.

    He was big and strong, but he wasn't fast or agile. His favorite throws were of necessity ones like hiza-guruma or almost any sutemi waza. He would almost never attack with a conventional forward throw. In the end, working with him was a big confidence builder for me because I know I can hold my own with a much larger opponent of equal rank. It also gave me confidence to know that judo works when it is done properly. Of course, doing it properly is the hard part!
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    medo

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    Post by medo on Sat May 10, 2014 10:00 am

    KShaft wrote:I started training back at home in Avon Ohio as I moved back from Columbus and the OSU judo club.

    Im 165 lbs and about 30 lbs overweight so Im stocky but short at 5'3".

    So I go up against some advanced belts a black and brown. Both of em probably outweigh me by 100 lbs give or take and were probably 6 foot or so.
    I cant move em hardly at all. I try seio nage and hip throw, and try moving toward the uke after that fails with the technique that you turn and its almost like a tackle with you wrapping your leg around the back of his leg and drive him back, or the one where you drop down (from seio nage position) and grab the leg as your knee touches hooking around the outside and fall back. Neither of these had any success. I mean it barely moved em, and one maki komied me because I tried to counter and hurt my shoulder. Pissed me off as he fell hard on me and did hurt me.

    Now I had sparred against guys more advanced and could move em around and put em in danger at least and thrown the ones my size or somewhat bigger, but these guys it was very difficult to move em at all and I dont have any experience trying to throw guys this big(resisting) not to mention at this rank.

    Any suggestions?

    Anyone that has 20kg+ on you will give you problems moving the unmovable involves adjusting ones game. For me in my youth I learnt to fight Kenkayotsu and spent most of my mat time training to fight left handed as holding normal grips with a competent heavy was suicide.

    In randori try working to get past or under the heavies arms, make you attach hard and low, feel if he tries to gather you up, reverse to a rear throw(inside his legs ouchi/kouchi never outside) , or keep moving under his COG.

    If I could relive my early judo life again I would not have entered opens as a light weight nor would I have even entertained randori where there was only pain..... not saying that I would not practice with heavies just those who seemed to enjoy seeing you curl up in agony after being pummeled into the floor with him on top..... would have saved all these pain killers I now have to take just to get me through the day...


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    Post by Ricebale on Sat May 10, 2014 10:17 am

    I posted a Sambo Randori vid in the Sambo section of this forum, I've got 30kg (70lb) on the smaller guy, he can't move me unless I play fair, which I do, he is a brown belt in Judo due for his Shodan but the weight/strength, experience and balance factors are all in my favor.

    Have a look and you can see some of my commentary in the rounds I'm sitting out as to what I'm trying to get him to do on another guy who is 30lb heavier and less experienced. It's Randori so we are all relaxed and experimenting.
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    Anatol

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    Post by Anatol on Sun May 11, 2014 2:00 am

    Hi Medo


    I also think, if you are not used to really heavyweights (+110), then it can be hell IF you resist constantly been thrown, because the power and the forces are much different than in  minus 90. If you don't resist to much, the risk of getting injured is not higher than middleweight.
    .


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    medo

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    Post by medo on Sun May 11, 2014 4:20 am

    Anatol wrote:Hi Medo


    I also think, if you are not used to really heavyweights (+110), then it can be hell IF you resist constantly been thrown, because the power and the forces are much different than in  minus 90. If you don't resist to much, the risk of getting injured is not higher than middleweight. Sometimes young ones and light ones want to resist tooo much getting thrown by an old and big one and that will hurt. Open category in shiai is interesting - I once fought a guy, who was half the weight and age I am.

    .

    You always avoid being thrown in normal randori/shia that means "feeling" getting away from the attack or attacking the attack with your own technique or repeated attacks so the heavy does not have the opportunity to attack you(need to be good on the ground though).
    Fast feet and distance making will help, more often though strength and mass is against you and you often in randori need to know when to let go and sometimes launch yourself to avoid being hurt.
    The worst miss match for me was randori with a guy called Errol Carnigie massive! Me at 60kg him must have been 130kg but gentle and a pleasure to run around him because that was all I could do.

    http://www.judovision.org/other-tournaments/1990-foxs-niteclub-wolverhampton-judo-masters/open-kerrith-brown-gbr.html

    Here is Kerrith brown at I believe around 80kgs handling him as I said in my other post ouchi is a good one to have in your armoury for attacking the attack as demonstrated here.

    Back in the 70's/80's the organisers of events would come up to the winners of there weight catagories and ask if you wanted to enter the open. Me back then would have a go, even medal'd occasionally, back then weighing 60kg I could bench press a few reps at 110kg but that don't help when you are dragged to the floor and crushed under 100kg+ Smile
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    medo

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    Post by medo on Sun May 11, 2014 6:08 am

    Anatol wrote:I had two shiai with big dudes.

    One was 6 feet 6 inches and 150kg and the other 6 feet and 8 inches and 170kg.

    Funny feeling, because normally I am "the big guy" (6 feet 2 and 120kg).


    But I have to say, it's not the same as short against big,
    because I was physically stronger in both fights.

    Won both shiai with ura nage.



    .
    Hi Anatol,

    Please don't become a slave to counters as you meet players who are equal or better than you chances are that you will have a very long stale period

    The ura nage taniotoshi wakiotoshi counter specialists I have met over the years never seem to grasp forward throws and crush us lightweights.
    One of the most fightening injuries I have had has been from being dumped on the back of my head/neck and my body folding over, thought my neck was broken had to wear a collar for months.
    I'm sure your working on being a rounded player though  Wink 
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    Ranma

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    Post by Ranma on Sun May 11, 2014 7:18 pm

    You will have significant trouble with bigger players unless you master your technique. It's easy to show - just have a compliant but heavy uke let you throw them. It's difficult enough when a much heavier uke is letting you throw, so what chances do you have during randori?

    Everything has to be right, so you won't find many players who can consistently beat heavier players. Being able to throw the big guys is a sign of a master.
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    Anatol

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    Post by Anatol on Mon May 12, 2014 1:39 am

    Hi medo

    I dont go for ura nage and tani otoshi and soto makikomi and o soto gari on light fighters (under 90kg), because this would be unfair. My likes are ashi waza and uchi mata/harai goshi. General I try to throw in the direction, "where uke wants to go". So I even avoid to have a "tokui waza" and do right and left.

    I got injured twice in the last four years and both times, because I didnt want to take the fall in shiai. Never had that in randori.


    .
    NittyRanks
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    Post by NittyRanks on Thu May 22, 2014 6:55 am

    I often find that throwing heavy/big people is a problem for guys, people complain about it a lot. If your in masters divisions at small tournaments sometimes they put you close to your weight for people that don't have enough competitors in their division also. It can be a pain in the ass but as people said learn your technique.
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    Post by Ben Reinhardt on Fri May 30, 2014 1:46 am

    KShaft wrote:I started training back at home in Avon Ohio as I moved back from Columbus and the OSU judo club.

    Im 165 lbs and about 30 lbs overweight so Im stocky but short at 5'3".

    So I go up against some advanced belts a black and brown. Both of em probably outweigh me by 100 lbs give or take and were probably 6 foot or so.
    I cant move em hardly at all. I try seio nage and hip throw, and try moving toward the uke after that fails with the technique that you turn and its almost like a tackle with you wrapping your leg around the back of his leg and drive him back, or the one where you drop down (from seio nage position) and grab the leg as your knee touches hooking around the outside and fall back. Neither of these had any success. I mean it barely moved em, and one maki komied me because I tried to counter and hurt my shoulder. Pissed me off as he fell hard on me and did hurt me.

    Now I had sparred against guys more advanced and could move em around and put em in danger at least and thrown the ones my size or somewhat bigger, but these guys it was very difficult to move em at all and I dont have any experience trying to throw guys this big(resisting) not to mention at this rank.

    Any suggestions?

    How old are you and how long have you been doing judo ?

    Doing judo with larger, more skilled opponents, even just in randori, is never easy unless the guy/gal is taking it easy on you.

    Perhaps you put with the larger/more experienced judoka because of you last paragraph?


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