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    Jigoro Kano and themes of his calligraphy

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    Anatol

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    Post by Anatol on Tue Jan 15, 2019 2:11 am

    Thanks for your answer Lance

    On the relationship Katsu Kaisho and Kano Jigoro I am referring to the book:

    "The Way of Judo: A Portrait of Jigoro Kano and his Students" by John Stevens

    chapter "Kano and Katsu Kaisho"

    If you like to have a look, a preview is available in google books.

    https://books.google.ch/books?id=L13P2hF33PUC&pg=PT32&dq=kano+students&hl=de&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi7vvqHyO3fAhWFY1AKHcD6C2UQ6AEILjAB#v=onepage&q=katsu&f=false
    NBK
    NBK

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    Post by NBK on Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:30 pm

    One problem with all of Stevens' books is near zero documentation. As he was (now retired, I think) a professional academic I assume he knew how to document references, but he certainly doesn't in his pop martial arts books. Disappointing. They are entertaining but hardly authoritative, and I think perhaps misleading if not actually made up in no small part. I have no idea how well any of them sold.

    He provides quotes without sources, so there's no way to check. He provides numerous points without references (Such as stating Katsu Kaishu attended every single important Kodokan event? Really? How does one establish that?)

    In fact in one of his books he makes a mistake. And I think I know where that mistake came from - the old e-judo forum - because I made it.

    And his makes 'quotes' without references - e.g., Kano shihan saying he would devote his entire life to study sounds completely out of character - Kano was against becoming a 'bookworm'. Nowhere in his voluminous writings and third party interviews is there an indication of that. I find it hard to believe as quoted, but can't say Stevens made it up because the negative proof could never be conclusive.

    States that Kano absorbed multiple Katsu sayings, then lists a number of sayings without reference or proof Kano ever adopted any of them. Some of them don't make sense for Kano shihan. Some could, but without proof.

    Can he have found these points? Sure. And I assume he reads Japanese at an advanced level.
    Did he prove them? Not that I can tell.

    Katsu Kaishu's collected, edited down works are 18 volumes. Some versions, 20 volumes. All >>400pp.
    On the topic of Imperial Army and Navy histories, he wrote multiple volumes on each - huge.
    His diary is ~600pp.
    In a couple of books 'Tales of Katsu Kaishu' even in the chapters specifically written about Kaishu's time in Kobe there do not seem to be any mention of Kano shihan's father, who lived there.
    In their lists of correspondence, Katsu does exchange a couple of letters with Kano shihan.

    Did they meet regularly? Perhaps, but not a lot of proof.

    Was Kaishu a mentor? I guess you could say so. One man's father's faithful friend is another man's mentor. In Japanese it becomes very vague, particularly when the elder is referred to the by the younger as 'sensei' - my teacher.

    I had dinner with Okano sensei last month - ~30 judo guys and Okano sensei's American wife. Everyone was calling everyone sensei, because some are in their 80s, hence senior. They're all my mentors. Except his lovely wife, who was very instructive in a couple of things.

    NBK
    NBK

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    Post by NBK on Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:24 pm

    Anatol wrote:Hi Lance

    Good judgement. That calligraphy is definitely not painted by Kano Jigoro.

    It is a *copy of* a calligraphy by Kano.

    http://www.artnet.com/artists/jigoro-kano/xingshushiwen-calligraphy-D-6LFhKHPYF_2kIlHzy8vg2

    Completely different individual style in running script.

    *******Don't want to critisize too much both of them but I admire the calligraphies of Katsu Kaishu.******

    ......


    Then check this out
    http://dl.ndl.go.jp/info:ndljp/pid/1158666
    Vol 10 of a Katsu Kaishu collection
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    Anatol

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    Post by Anatol on Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:56 pm

    Thanks a lot Lance

    for all that information on Katsu Kaisho and the exquisite book on Kaisho's calligraphies.

    It's very impressive, how Kaisho has accuracy, flow and individuality.

    I once compared Kata with calligraphy.

    Kata as an Art:

    Calligraphy is one part of "Gei Do" (Art Way) and was always considered as one way to refine and deepen the human personality/mind/spirit. It is not just simply "write and produce/copy accurate characters" but an expression of skill, emotion, mind and spirit, personality.

    There are four main points to consider in calligraphy:

    Form (principles)

    Power (stroke)

    Rhythm

    Spirit

    plus tension, vitality, spontaneity, flow, individuality and more

    and the Shu-Ha-Ri progression.


    If you only do "shu" = protect, obey to fulfill Kata norms, you miss the important part of leaving,

    walking your Way.

    As Zhuangzi said: "Ways are made by walking."
    NBK
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    Post by NBK on Wed Jan 16, 2019 12:15 am

    hahahaa...... superb!

    If our former friend CK, apparently a guy of inestimable childishness, had not completely freaked out to hide wherever he is still sulking today, all >180cm >>120kg of his miserable, lurking out there self, there would be at least one person able to joust with you here on this forum on this topic. But, unfortunately, it's not me on this topic.

    Meanwhile, as useless as I am on such commentary, for which I apologize, I cannot offer a reposte, but instead, say, thank you for that. I think I get the major points, and keep them coming, please. It is interesting and educational, both.

    Thank you!
    NBK
    NBK

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    Post by NBK on Wed Jan 16, 2019 5:43 pm

    I did find a Japanese webpage with the conversation between Katsu Kaishu and Kano shihan quoted, but no source given.
    https://www.nippon.com/ja/column/g00603/
    ....
    「柔道の父」を作った開明的視点

    そんな嘉納治五郎に勝海舟が教え諭したエピソードがある。大学を卒業して学習院の教員をしていた頃、治五郎は海舟を訪ねて、しばらく学問に没頭しようと思う、と述べた。すると勝は、「学者になろうとするのか、それとも社会で事をなそうとするのか」とたずねた。治五郎は「後者で、そのためにしばらく学問に集中したい」と答えると、海舟は、「それはいけない。それでは学者になってしまう。事をなしつつ学問をなすべきだ」と忠告した。この言葉は深く治五郎青年の心を打ち、以降、治五郎は、実際に必要なものに応じて本を読み、勉強するようになったという。海舟の教えは、実践的な知に基づく教育を施していく基盤になったのである。

    I'll check a couple of likely references.
    noboru
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    Jigoro Kano and themes of his calligraphy - Page 2 Empty Jigoro Kano calligraphy seiryoku zenyo 精力善用 in auction

    Post by noboru on Thu Jan 17, 2019 5:27 am

    https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/k361984472

    Jigoro Kano calligraphy seiryoku zenyo 精力善用 (I think) in auction: 45000 japanese jen
    But the signature could be “Shinkosaï (進乎斎)” - Shinkosai was one from three Kano's nicknames on calligraphies /pen name - I am not able recognize it good.

    100yearlegacy.org wrote:Jigoro Kano’s Penname
    Prof. Kano’s penname, until he was 60, was “Kônan (甲南).” During his 60's, he wrote under the name “Shinkosaï (進乎斎)” changing it again to “Ki-Issaï (帰一斎)” in his 70’s.



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    Jigoro Kano and themes of his calligraphy - Page 2 I-img610
    Jigoro Kano and themes of his calligraphy - Page 2 I-img311
    NBK
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    Post by NBK on Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:25 pm

    NBK wrote:I did find a Japanese webpage  with the conversation between Katsu Kaishu and Kano shihan quoted, but no source given.
    https://www.nippon.com/ja/column/g00603/
    ....
    「柔道の父」を作った開明的視点

    そんな嘉納治五郎に勝海舟が教え諭したエピソードがある。大学を卒業して学習院の教員をしていた頃、治五郎は海舟を訪ねて、しばらく学問に没頭しようと思う、と述べた。すると勝は、「学者になろうとするのか、それとも社会で事をなそうとするのか」とたずねた。治五郎は「後者で、そのためにしばらく学問に集中したい」と答えると、海舟は、「それはいけない。それでは学者になってしまう。事をなしつつ学問をなすべきだ」と忠告した。この言葉は深く治五郎青年の心を打ち、以降、治五郎は、実際に必要なものに応じて本を読み、勉強するようになったという。海舟の教えは、実践的な知に基づく教育を施していく基盤になったのである。

    I'll check a couple of likely references.
    A friend helped me out. Thank you, Kibushi sensei.
    It is referenced in Morohashi's 'Kano Jigoro', Kodokan, 1964, pg 54, complete with quotes.
    Later in the book in multiple places Morohashi credits Katsu with influence on Kano shihan's thoughts about education, along with other people, and support of the Kano juku.
    noboru
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    Post by noboru on Thu Jan 17, 2019 6:16 pm

    "The calligraphy hung in the front of Historical Materials Display Room that says “With no disturbance in mind, feel the wonder of nature and without intentional actions, pursue the essence of changes” was brushed by Kaishu Katsu.
    Kaishu Katsu was deeply impressed when he saw the founder Jigoro Kano perform kata, so he brushed this calligraphy and gave it to Kano as a gift."

    Source https://www.stroll-tips.com/en/kodokan-judo/
    Jigoro Kano and themes of his calligraphy - Page 2 Kodoka10

    NBK
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    Post by NBK on Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:00 pm

    there's a long thread someplace wherein CK, Anatol, and I went back and forth on this poem, trying to get the best English translation. (I tend to like mine....)

    Katsu Kaishu ('Awa' was another name) had a great many fans. I have a 1904 English book in which the author, a personal friend of Katsu, likened him to the greatest political figures of America and Europe. He was unique, no doubt.

    http://www.samurai-revolution.com/clarks-biography-of-katsu-kaishu/
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    Jigoro Kano and themes of his calligraphy - Page 2 Empty Katsu Kaishu and Sakamoto Ryoma

    Post by noboru on Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:04 pm

    I read some book about Sakamoto Ryoma. He went kill to Katsu Kaishu to his house. Katsu Kaishu it recognized and invited Sakamoto and his friend to his house and give them some speech. After this Sakamoto didnt want to kill him and begun learn from him.

    Katsu Kaishu spent some years in USA with some japanese naval delegation and he was modernist. May be it was mentor for Kanos modernisation of japanese education system ... for judo too in his era.
    NBK
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    Post by NBK on Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:49 am

    noboru wrote:I read some book about Sakamoto Ryoma. He went kill to Katsu Kaishu to his house. Katsu Kaishu it recognized and invited Sakamoto and his friend to his house and give them some speech. After this Sakamoto didnt want to kill him and begun learn from him.

    Katsu Kaishu spent some years in USA with some japanese naval delegation and he was modernist. May be it was mentor for Kanos modernisation of japanese education system ... for judo too in his era.
    Yes, Sakamoto Ryoma went to kill Katsu, who asked him to wait until he could explain himself. The argument was that Ryoma wanted Japan to remain closed, and Katsu thought that not viable and that Japan must open up to become viable.

    Afterwards, Ryoma became convinced, and became Katsu's deshi.

    Their association created substantial problems for Katsu.

    Katsu didn't spend 'years' in the US, but he was the captain of the first Japanese ship to cross the Pacific. His memoirs of his time in the US are interesting.

    I don't think Ryoma ever met Kano shihan. He was assassinated in 1867, when Kano shihan was a child still at home in Kobe.
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    Anatol

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    Post by Anatol on Fri Jan 18, 2019 12:58 am

    noboru wrote:"The calligraphy hung in the front of Historical Materials Display Room that says “With no disturbance in mind, feel the wonder of nature and without intentional actions, pursue the essence of changes” was brushed by Kaishu Katsu.
    Kaishu Katsu was deeply impressed when he saw the founder Jigoro Kano perform kata, so he brushed this calligraphy and gave it to Kano as a gift."

    Source https://www.stroll-tips.com/en/kodokan-judo/
    Jigoro Kano and themes of his calligraphy - Page 2 Kodoka10


    Thanks Noboru!

    Katsu Kaisho was a true master of running script (semi cursive script).

    The content of the poem reminds me on the "Song of Judo" by Kyuzo Mifune:

    In time of practice, without distraction,

    light in heart and light in limb.

    Let us endeavor with full attention,

    to concentrate our mind within.

    This is the genuine way of Judo.

    This is the genuine way of Judo.

    .

    Trained through practice to perfection,

    skilled in the art of rise and fall.

    Let us enter the way of salvation,

    freely moving like a ball.

    This is the genuine way of Judo.

    This is the genuine way of Judo.

    .

    The way of Judo knows no bound,

    the mild of heart no enmity.

    Let us, all nations hand in hand,

    build the ideal of amity.

    This is the genuine way of Judo.

    This is the genuine way of Judo.

    .

    What is the Essence of Judo? What is the very Heart of Judo?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdKSRMx5QuQ
    NBK
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    Post by NBK on Tue Jan 22, 2019 2:57 pm

    NBK wrote:......
    I don't think Ryoma ever met Kano shihan. He was assassinated in 1867, when Kano shihan was a child still at home in Kobe.
    You know, now that I think about it, it is very possible that Kano shihan as a child met Sakamoto Ryoma.

    Katsu opened the Kobe navy school in May 1864, closed in mid-1865. Ryoma was one of its best known students. In fact, he was so well known that the presence of him and other sonno-joi extremists led to Katsu's opponents in the bakuhan system to militate successfully to get the school shut down.

    The school in the then small fishing village of Kobe was <10km to the Kano family home in Nada. And Katsu certainly knew Kano shihan's father Jirosaku, interacted with him regularly.

    So, it's possible that Ryoma met the child Jinnosuke (Kano's birthname) at 3-4 years old.
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    Post by noboru on Sat Aug 10, 2019 6:46 pm

    Jigoro Kano photography from ‎FCB - Adam Robert Turner‎ for Historical Ninjutsu and Samurai Warfare

    This dōjō, now located at Meijimura, an outdoor architectural museum in Aichi, was built in 1878. We can see the differences starting to manifest in this structure between historic training buildings and more modern dōjō, and so I think it’s interesting. This dōjō is a multipurpose sports hall with an archery range out back. The hall is mostly floored with wooden planks but also has a tatami area around the edges and toward the front of the building. The tatami was probably used for jūjutsu training, but older jūjutsu halls I’ve seen didn’t use tatami for training on. Other modern features include the state-mandated kamidana / kamiza and some modern tools (clubs and batons used for callisthenics). A more traditional feature of the hall would be the viewing galleries with tatami matting at either end of the hall. The tatami around the edges of the springy wooden floor may also have been intended as a comfortable place to sit whilst spectating or waiting to spring into action. An old kendo suit is displayed in the hall. The architecture also blends indigenous and western features, typical of the Meiji Period.


    Jigoro Kano and themes of his calligraphy - Page 2 Jigoro11
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    Text on the calligraphy could be ???  Shin-shin Jizai / 心身自在 Free Mind and Body (Soul)

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