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    Ronda Rousey's throw at UFC 175 - harai goshi or harai makikomi?

    Ricebale
    Ricebale


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    Post by Ricebale Wed Jul 16, 2014 4:24 pm

    Richard Riehle wrote:
    Ricebale wrote:Kubi Nagi

    I agree with Ricebale on this.   She used a perfect example of kubi-nage from the old-time Ju-jutsu canon.  Her arm was around her opponent's neck, not under the armpit.  She had her leg extended to block her opponent's leg, as in kubi-nage.  However, in original kubi-nage practice, tori usually planted the blocking leg somewhat similarly to tai-otoshi.  

    Kubi-nage is a very old Ju-jutsu throw.  It is not legal in modern Judo.  Instead, we have a modification of it called koshi-guruma in which the hips are placed deep inside uke's abdominal area and the arm, instead of holding uke's neck, is place around uke's back close to the opposite shoulder.  When that arm is wrapped around uke's neck, it is clearly kubi-nage, a "neck-grip throw," with emphasis on the neck-grip.

    For a makikomi, there usually needs to be a distinctive wraparound, a winding motion.  This did not seem to me to have as much of that motion as we would expect even though the completed technique ended up with both contestants on the mat.  



    ha! Vindication, the sweet wine, the Goblet doth overflow with immodest victory

    cheers Rich!
    judo66
    judo66


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    Post by judo66 Thu Jul 17, 2014 12:51 am

    Not kubi nage. It was the second hip throw taught with the Kawaishi method. Rousey's left leg is used as in harai goshi.
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    medo


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    Post by medo Thu Jul 17, 2014 6:50 am

    Richard Riehle wrote:
    Ricebale wrote:Kubi Nagi

    I agree with Ricebale on this.   She used a perfect example of kubi-nage from the old-time Ju-jutsu canon.  Her arm was around her opponent's neck, not under the armpit.  She had her leg extended to block her opponent's leg, as in kubi-nage.  However, in original kubi-nage practice, tori usually planted the blocking leg somewhat similarly to tai-otoshi.  

    Kubi-nage is a very old Ju-jutsu throw.  It is not legal in modern Judo.  Instead, we have a modification of it called koshi-guruma in which the hips are placed deep inside uke's abdominal area and the arm, instead of holding uke's neck, is place around uke's back close to the opposite shoulder.  When that arm is wrapped around uke's neck, it is clearly kubi-nage, a "neck-grip throw," with emphasis on the neck-grip.

    For a makikomi, there usually needs to be a distinctive wraparound, a winding motion.  This did not seem to me to have as much of that motion as we would expect even though the completed technique ended up with both contestants on the mat.  




    http://www.jigorokano.it/Cartella%20Waza/Kubi%20Nage.html


    Kubi nage as I know it, look anything like RR throw?
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    Richard Riehle


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    Post by Richard Riehle Sun Jul 20, 2014 4:20 pm

    Whatever you may think of her debatable earlier technique, kubi-nage, harai-goshi, harai-makikomi, etc., the technique she used on Autumn Richardson was a clear example of koshi-guruma. The hips were deep. The arm well-positioned around the high shoulder area.
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    medo


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    Post by medo Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:26 pm

    Richard Riehle wrote:Whatever you may think of her debatable earlier technique, kubi-nage, harai-goshi, harai-makikomi, etc., the technique she used on Autumn Richardson was a clear example of koshi-guruma.  The hips were deep. The arm well-positioned around the high shoulder area.  

    The master at koshi  Very Happy  taking out top Judoka with it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpnLOB8vOVk  

    Notice leg lift with the last throw "seems familiar" natural to do so............

    The arm is not completely trapping the neck as in last and the taiotoshi leg, ttp://www.jigorokano.it/Cartella%20Waza/Kubi%20Nage.html

    Cross buttock throw? (for ricebale Smile ) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFhJb6VdS5Q very similar to the RR Richardsons throw
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    medo


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    Post by medo Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:42 pm

    Watch at 4:35 Its a natural hidari throw for RR

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_yIBubQ-H4

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    JFTW


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    Post by JFTW Mon Jul 21, 2014 2:00 am

    Rousey performs Harai Goshi.

    It cannot be Koshi Guruma or Kubi Nage because one of defining characteristics of Koshi Guruma and Kubi Nage is that both feet are planted on the ground.

    Some people seem to be confused by the fact Rousey wraps her arm around Davis' head/neck. Harai Goshi is often performed in that manner - and that does not change the fact it is still Harai Goshi.
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    medo


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    Post by medo Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:16 am

    JFTW wrote:Rousey performs Harai Goshi.

    It cannot be Koshi Guruma or Kubi Nage because one of defining characteristics of Koshi Guruma and Kubi Nage is that both feet are planted on the ground.

    Some people seem to be confused by the fact Rousey wraps her arm around Davis' head/neck. Harai Goshi is often performed in that manner - and that does not change the fact it is still Harai Goshi.


    Perhaps the initial attack was in the form of Koshi guruma and the leg lifts at the end of the kake phase as a natural action!!


    Last edited by medo on Mon Jul 21, 2014 3:58 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added "end of")
    Ricebale
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    Post by Ricebale Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:58 am

    medo wrote:
    Richard Riehle wrote:Whatever you may think of her debatable earlier technique, kubi-nage, harai-goshi, harai-makikomi, etc., the technique she used on Autumn Richardson was a clear example of koshi-guruma.  The hips were deep. The arm well-positioned around the high shoulder area.  

    The master at koshi  Very Happy  taking out top Judoka with it.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpnLOB8vOVk  

    Notice leg lift with the last throw "seems familiar" natural to do so............

    The arm is not completely trapping the neck as in last and the taiotoshi leg, ttp://www.jigorokano.it/Cartella%20Waza/Kubi%20Nage.html

    Cross buttock throw? (for ricebale Smile ) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lFhJb6VdS5Q very similar to the RR Richardsons throw

    you had me at "buttock"  What a Face 
    Ben Reinhardt
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    Post by Ben Reinhardt Sat Aug 09, 2014 4:05 am

    Ronda is a very skilled judoka. Way more so than 90+% of the people on this board, me included of course !

    She reacted instinctively from her training to the situation at hand and threw her opponent. The same thing happens in regular judo practice and shiai (for everyone). No particular throw in mind at the time, she just did Judo.

    Ryvai
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    Post by Ryvai Sat Aug 09, 2014 7:35 pm

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:Ronda is a very skilled judoka. Way more so than 90+% of the people on this board, me included of course !

    She reacted instinctively from her training to the situation at hand and threw her opponent. The same thing happens in regular judo practice and shiai (for everyone). No particular throw in mind at the time, she just did Judo.


    It was instinct for her, no doubt. She probably had no particular throw in mind but merely reacted, true. This discussion was just about where do we 'put' this throw? Does it belong to harai-goshi? Smile

    I asked a high dan sensei in Italy this summer regarding this throw, and he immediatly recognized it as kubi-nage. I still struggle a bit with this terminology though, I would love some history regarding this name, as it is probably included in the Kodokan terminology of koshi-guruma. As the leg is lifted off the floor and used actively, in the air, I don't understand how this could be the kubi-nage everyone describes here :p atleast makikomi is out of the picture.
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    medo


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    Post by medo Sun Aug 10, 2014 5:25 am

    Question? Does RR's leg sweep/barrie?.
    Cichorei Kano
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    Post by Cichorei Kano Sun Aug 10, 2014 7:18 am

    Ryvai wrote:
    It was instinct for her, no doubt. She probably had no particular throw in mind but merely reacted, true. This discussion was just about where do we 'put' this throw? Does it belong to harai-goshi? Smile

    I asked a high dan sensei in Italy this summer regarding this throw, and he immediatly recognized it as kubi-nage. I still struggle a bit with this terminology though, I would love some history regarding this name,

    I welcome customized research. What is your research budget ? Have you applied for a grant yet ?
    Ricebale
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    Post by Ricebale Sun Aug 10, 2014 10:33 am

    Ryvai wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:Ronda is a very skilled judoka. Way more so than 90+% of the people on this board, me included of course !

    She reacted instinctively from her training to the situation at hand and threw her opponent. The same thing happens in regular judo practice and shiai (for everyone). No particular throw in mind at the time, she just did Judo.


    It was instinct for her, no doubt. She probably had no particular throw in mind but merely reacted, true. This discussion was just about where do we 'put' this throw? Does it belong to harai-goshi? Smile

    I asked a high dan sensei in Italy this summer regarding this throw, and he immediatly recognized it as kubi-nage. I still struggle a bit with this terminology though, I would love some history regarding this name, as it is probably included in the Kodokan terminology of koshi-guruma. As the leg is lifted off the floor and used actively, in the air, I don't understand how this could be the kubi-nage everyone describes here :p atleast makikomi is out of the picture.

    Smile  thumbup1 
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    medo


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    Post by medo Sun Aug 10, 2014 6:17 pm

    Rice bale the votes are definately going your way all the way from italy!!!
    Ryvai
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    Post by Ryvai Mon Aug 11, 2014 12:53 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:I welcome customized research. What is your research budget ?  Have you applied for a grant yet ?

    Unlimited funds ^_^

    Ben Reinhardt
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    Post by Ben Reinhardt Sat Aug 16, 2014 10:24 am

    Ryvai wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:Ronda is a very skilled judoka. Way more so than 90+% of the people on this board, me included of course !

    She reacted instinctively from her training to the situation at hand and threw her opponent. The same thing happens in regular judo practice and shiai (for everyone). No particular throw in mind at the time, she just did Judo.


    It was instinct for her, no doubt. She probably had no particular throw in mind but merely reacted, true. This discussion was just about where do we 'put' this throw? Does it belong to harai-goshi? Smile

    I asked a high dan sensei in Italy this summer regarding this throw, and he immediatly recognized it as kubi-nage. I still struggle a bit with this terminology though, I would love some history regarding this name, as it is probably included in the Kodokan terminology of koshi-guruma. As the leg is lifted off the floor and used actively, in the air, I don't understand how this could be the kubi-nage everyone describes here :p atleast makikomi is out of the picture.

    I think you are too hung up on names. Try to enjoy and appreciate that Ronda was able to do and how well she did it. Lots of what happens in judo ends up being hybrids and compound movement.

    See the discussion of Osoto Gari for some insight.
    Ricebale
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    Post by Ricebale Sat Aug 16, 2014 11:35 am

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    Ryvai wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:Ronda is a very skilled judoka. Way more so than 90+% of the people on this board, me included of course !

    She reacted instinctively from her training to the situation at hand and threw her opponent. The same thing happens in regular judo practice and shiai (for everyone). No particular throw in mind at the time, she just did Judo.


    It was instinct for her, no doubt. She probably had no particular throw in mind but merely reacted, true. This discussion was just about where do we 'put' this throw? Does it belong to harai-goshi? Smile

    I asked a high dan sensei in Italy this summer regarding this throw, and he immediatly recognized it as kubi-nage. I still struggle a bit with this terminology though, I would love some history regarding this name, as it is probably included in the Kodokan terminology of koshi-guruma. As the leg is lifted off the floor and used actively, in the air, I don't understand how this could be the kubi-nage everyone describes here :p atleast makikomi is out of the picture.

    I think you are too hung up on names. Try to enjoy and appreciate that Ronda was able to do  and how well she did it. Lots of what happens in judo ends up being hybrids and compound movement.

    See the discussion of Osoto Gari for some insight.

    I agree it's all in our heads (kubi) lets just enjoy the throw (nage)

    Smile

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