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    Why is the kubi nage not used in compitions

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    Whatiskuzushi

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    Post by Whatiskuzushi on Fri Mar 29, 2019 3:40 pm

    I’ve only ever seen one video of a high level judoka doing a kubi nage, and even then it was only a counter, is this just a move that only works on beginners?
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    Post by Y-Chromosome on Sat Mar 30, 2019 3:59 am

    Whatiskuzushi wrote:I’ve only ever seen one video of a high level judoka doing a kubi nage, and even then it was only a counter, is this just a move that only works on beginners?

    Kubi nage is not a recognized Kodokan throw name.
    Are you talking about Koshi Guruma?
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    Whatiskuzushi

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    Post by Whatiskuzushi on Sat Mar 30, 2019 1:05 pm

    “Input not received computational error, please input Kodokan throw name” haha just kidding, no I’m not talking about Koshi Guruma, kubi nage is a sort of tai otoshi-koshi guruma with a headlock grip and a hip twist.
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    Emanuele2

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    Post by Emanuele2 on Tue Apr 02, 2019 12:29 am

    Whatiskuzushi wrote:kubi nage is a sort of tai otoshi-koshi guruma with a headlock grip and a hip twist.
    Yes, it is a crossover between a koshi guruma and a tai otoshi (a tai otoshi performed with the arm around the uke's neck). I think it isn't performed in competitions because it is pretty unknown. For example I learned the existence of this throw right on this forum.

    In UFC 7, Remco Pardoel threw Ryan Parker with a kubi nage. https://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XODkxNTE0NTE2.html?debug=flv
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    petrip

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    Post by petrip on Tue Apr 09, 2019 6:13 pm

    Problem in using names like kubi-nage is that there is no accepted intepretation what is mean by that. And certainly I have seen goshi-gurumas wher thrower has extended one leg in tai-otoshi fashion. And I don't see need to have name for throws like that. There are just way too many of those born in at constant rate
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    Emanuele2

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    Post by Emanuele2 on Tue Apr 09, 2019 7:30 pm

    petrip wrote:Problem in using names like kubi-nage is that there is no accepted intepretation what is mean by that. And certainly I have seen goshi-gurumas wher thrower has extended one leg in tai-otoshi fashion. And I don't see need to have name for throws like that. There are just way too many of those born in at constant rate
    Yes. I've seen in competition, hane goshi performed with koshi guruma hold; harai goshi performed with o goshi hold or with lapel hold.
    Once, about 20 years ago, I saw a judoka in a competition attempting an ippon seoi nage and switching to harai goshi keeping the ippon seoi nage hold.
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    Post by finarashi on Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:59 pm

    Emanuele2 wrote:
    petrip wrote:Problem in using names like kubi-nage is that there is no accepted intepretation what is mean by that. And certainly I have seen goshi-gurumas wher thrower has extended one leg in tai-otoshi fashion. And I don't see need to have name for throws like that. There are just way too many of those born in at constant rate
    Yes. I've seen in competition, hane goshi performed with koshi guruma hold; harai goshi performed with o goshi hold or with lapel hold.
    Once, about 20 years ago, I saw a judoka in a competition attempting an ippon seoi nage and switching to harai goshi keeping the ippon seoi nage hold.
    In Judo a throw is not classified by the hold. In Judo the throw is classified by principle i.e. how the fall happens. So kubi-nage can not be a throw in judo as "grabbing the head" does not constitute a different principle. Recently all different seoi nage's have been classified as seoi-nage, but the discussion on what constitutes a different principle continues. Please refer to Daigo for discussion although in the English version the discussion pertaining to kubi-nage has been redacted, but can be found in addition to original Japanese also in German version.


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    Post by petrip on Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:03 pm

    Recently? I think originally all sei-o-nage's were just seio-nage and then in the -90s ippon-seio-nage was classified as separate throw.
    http://kodokanjudoinstitute.org/en/waza/list/#a1-2
    there is definately a ISN. Eri-seio-nage that is sometimes even required in finnish grading exams is obviously sille. Grapping left or right collar changes absolutely nothing
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    Post by Jihef on Thu Apr 18, 2019 11:06 pm

    petrip wrote:Problem in using names like kubi-nage is that there is no accepted intepretation what is mean by that.
    (…)
    And I don't see need to have name for throws like that. There are just way too many of those born in at constant rate
    Well, you may be wrong here.
    All of this depends on your Club's history.
    Some old Judo Club's in Europe are rooted in Kawaishi Judo from the 1940-50's, and have Kubi-nage in their curriculum.
    Like mine for example.
    That throw is distinct and complementary to Koshi-guruma and we teach it following that (Kawaishi) tradition.


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    Post by petrip on Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:44 am

    Well, that is just as problematic. You call something kubi-nage then just about no one can be expected to know what you mean. Judo is by proper name Kodokan Judo and that is the common language
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    Post by Emanuele2 on Fri Apr 19, 2019 6:23 am

    How would you call a technique like kubi nage? A tai otoshi with neck hold?
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    petrip

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    Post by petrip on Fri Apr 19, 2019 6:49 am

    Depends. Whether final throwing happend over the hip of not. If it goes over hip then it is a variation of goshi-guruma. BUT you cannot possibly name every single throw possibe. So yes you have to describe the goshi-guruma with extended leg. Or tai otoshi with neck grip. You dont give names to throw like uchi-mata with neck grip, one handed uchi-mata, uchi-mata with support leg outside uke´s feet. uchi mata with deep-entry. You would end up with hundreds of named throw after just couple of years
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    Post by Jihef on Fri Apr 19, 2019 6:51 pm

    petrip wrote:Well, that is just as problematic. You call something kubi-nage then just about no one can be expected to know what you mean.  Judo is by proper name Kodokan Judo and that is the common language
    Hello again.
    Did you really read my post ? Neutral

    Two things, here :

    1— Yes, Judo is Kodokan Judo. And Kodokan terminology is, indeed, the common language.
    Now that this out of our way :

    2— I mentioned we practice Kubi-nage per Kawaishi tradition. This means that you can actually find reference of what a Kubi-nage is in “Kawaishi” Judo (Which is just an older version of Kodokan judo).

    And that it is not just some obscure move, but a judo throw that once was commonly known and practiced all over Europe. And that is STILL practiced today in some “traditional” Clubs.

    * Kubi-nage is detailed in Kawaishi's “my method of judo” book. Available in french and english versions.
    If you search for it, I am pretty sure you will find it someplace online.


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    Post by petrip on Fri Apr 19, 2019 8:05 pm

    http://www.judotechnik.eu/Nagewaza/koshi_technik.php?id=nag2&lang=en&bildart=Illu
    From there the difference between the two kawaishi techniques seems small. Mostly direction of throw.

    And neither is kodokan Goshi-guruma. Well canonic form anyway. In comptition situation changes. But in these kawaishi version Toris feet are wider than ukes. While Goshi-guruma tori's legs are inside ukes legs
    as can be seen this kodokan site picture. Luckily goshi-guruma is the one with pic
    http://kodokanjudoinstitute.org/en/waza/list/#a1-3
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    Post by Y-Chromosome on Sat Apr 20, 2019 4:03 am

    Jihef wrote:
    petrip wrote:Well, that is just as problematic. You call something kubi-nage then just about no one can be expected to know what you mean.  Judo is by proper name Kodokan Judo and that is the common language
    Hello again.
    Did you really read my post ? Neutral

    Two things, here :

    1— Yes, Judo is Kodokan Judo. And Kodokan terminology is, indeed, the common language.
    Now that this out of our way :

    2— I mentioned we practice Kubi-nage per Kawaishi tradition. This means that you can actually find reference of what a Kubi-nage is in “Kawaishi” Judo (Which is just an older version of Kodokan judo).

    And that it is not just some obscure move, but a judo throw that once was commonly known and practiced all over Europe. And that is STILL practiced today in some “traditional” Clubs.

    * Kubi-nage is detailed in Kawaishi's “my method of judo” book. Available in french and english versions.
    If you search for it, I am pretty sure you will find it someplace online.

    Kawaishi Method is certainly different from garden variety Kodokan Judo.  I'm not sure I would say it is "older than".  At best you can say that some of the jujutsu it's derived from predates Kodokan Judo but that's true of most things in Judo.

    So here's the problem.  In the OP you didn't state you practice Kawaishi Method, nor that you're drawing your terminology from Kawaishi Method and not from the Kodokan.  You just threw a non-standard term into the fray and expected everyone to understand you.

    This is a Judo forum.  Everyone speaks in accepted Kodokan jargon.  Now Kawaishi Method did use to be pretty common but it's clearly pretty fringe now.  Even in France.

    I think that answers your question though.  I don't think there's anything wrong with the technique per-se, but most people competing at high level are being trained at clubs belonging to IJF associated governing bodies where Kodokan standards are the norm.  Most people just haven't learned that throw.

    I know in my location we still teach the standard Kodokan version of Koshi Guruma (your Kawaishi version looks like a mangled Tai otoshi:  Link KG) but we have to modify it for the kids.  Modified rules for the younger age groups here prohibit encircling the neck.  This means a standard Koshi Guruma or what you're calling Kubi Nage would earn them a penalty.  Not sure what the rules are everywhere else, but when you grow up avoiding a certain throw, it doesn't necessarily become your go-to technique later on.
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    Post by petrip on Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:49 pm

    after having seen this kawaishi-version I can see why is not main common. I attack with wide legs then grapping over the neck (or to opposite shoulder in games for young people below age limit where direct pressure to neck is not allowed) just servers to reduce mobility of the attacker. Far better is tai otoshi and if you want increase head control: elbow up and showel fist down to neckline.

    Kawaishi style goshi-guruma or kubi-nage are more things to after initial attack manages to mode so roll over hip is not doable and to stop evasion attacker moves leg to side and continues rotation to finish. So I am quite sure that if see enough high level matches you will see it. Just that not the most common as goshi-guruma is not most common anyway
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    Post by Jihef on Tue Apr 23, 2019 6:55 pm

    Y-Chromosome wrote:
    Jihef wrote:
    petrip wrote:Well, that is just as problematic. You call something kubi-nage then just about no one can be expected to know what you mean.  Judo is by proper name Kodokan Judo and that is the common language
    Hello again.
    Did you really read my post ? Neutral

    Two things, here :

    1— Yes, Judo is Kodokan Judo. And Kodokan terminology is, indeed, the common language.
    Now that this out of our way :

    2— I mentioned we practice Kubi-nage per Kawaishi tradition. This means that you can actually find reference of what a Kubi-nage is in “Kawaishi” Judo (Which is just an older version of Kodokan judo).

    And that it is not just some obscure move, but a judo throw that once was commonly known and practiced all over Europe. And that is STILL practiced today in some “traditional” Clubs.

    * Kubi-nage is detailed in Kawaishi's “my method of judo” book. Available in french and english versions.
    If you search for it, I am pretty sure you will find it someplace online.
    Kawaishi Method is certainly different from garden variety Kodokan Judo.  I'm not sure I would say it is "older than".  At best you can say that some of the jujutsu it's derived from predates Kodokan Judo but that's true of most things in Judo.
    Hello Y-Chromosome,
    let me be more precise, to avoid further misunderstandings : Kawaishi's judo nomenclature is older than the actual Kodokan one, for the simple reason that the Kodokan is still active, and that MK's method dates from the 1940's and is a witness from the past.

    Y-Chromosome wrote:So here's the problem.  In the OP you didn't state you practice Kawaishi Method, nor that you're drawing your terminology from Kawaishi Method and not from the Kodokan.  You just threw a non-standard term into the fray and expected everyone to understand you.

    This is a Judo forum.  Everyone speaks in accepted Kodokan jargon.  Now Kawaishi Method did use to be pretty common but it's clearly pretty fringe now.  Even in France.

    I think that answers your question though.  I don't think there's anything wrong with the technique per-se, but most people competing at high level are being trained at clubs belonging to IJF associated governing bodies where Kodokan standards are the norm.  Most people just haven't learned that throw.
    You seem to confuse me with the OP. I am only a mere participant in this thread. And I believe I tried to be clear enough in what I wrote.

    Ah, this is nice, though, makes me regret the long gone original judoforum, where subjects like these would inflame passions for days.  Very Happy

    Y-Chromosome wrote:I know in my location we still teach the standard Kodokan version of Koshi Guruma (your Kawaishi version looks like a mangled Tai otoshi:  Link KG) but we have to modify it for the kids.  Modified rules for the younger age groups here prohibit encircling the neck.  This means a standard Koshi Guruma or what you're calling Kubi Nage would earn them a penalty.  Not sure what the rules are everywhere else, but when you grow up avoiding a certain throw, it doesn't necessarily become your go-to technique later on.
    As I stated previously, we do teach both versions of koshi-guruma. Personally I like kubi-nage as a possible follow-up to koshi-guruma, if uke blocks the entry, like in tsuri-komi-goshi in the NNK, for example.

    BTW, I did NOT illustrate Kubi-nage. I wish I could find a decent version on Youtube to do so, but I haven't. Neutral


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    Post by Y-Chromosome on Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:26 am

    Jihef wrote: You seem to confuse me with the OP. I am only a mere participant in this thread. And I believe I tried to be clear enough in what I wrote.

    Ah, this is nice, though, makes me regret the long gone original judoforum, where subjects like these would inflame passions for days.  Very Happy Neutral

    Ooooh yah... but then PTNippon or Cichorei Kano would step in and tell everyone to shut the F*¢< up and Hanon would start decrying the fact that we couldn't all just get along...

    Sorry for the misunderstanding.  By "older than" I understood "predated" which would imply that Kawaishi method judo was around before Kodakan Judo so I hope you understand my confusion.

    I guess "obsolete" is a weird concept when the thing that supplants the obsolete thing actually predates it.
    I think Kawaishi had some good ideas, but for the life of me I can't see the point of numbering throws.
    The last bits of it seem to have been weeded out over here.
    Even the longstanding "French camp" vs "Japanese camp" dispute/feud/rivalry seems to have been largely settled in favor of the Japanese camp.
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    Post by Jihef on Wed Apr 24, 2019 9:33 pm

    Y-Chromosome wrote: Sorry for the misunderstanding.  By "older than" I understood "predated" which would imply that Kawaishi method judo was around before Kodakan Judo so I hope you understand my confusion.

    I guess "obsolete" is a weird concept when the thing that supplants the obsolete thing actually predates it.
    I think Kawaishi had some good ideas, but for the life of me I can't see the point of numbering throws.
    The last bits of it seem to have been weeded out over here.
    Even the longstanding "French camp" vs "Japanese camp" dispute/feud/rivalry seems to have been largely settled in favor of the Japanese camp.
    Hello,
    Kawaishi was indeed a Kodokan judoka, but… he learned in the “good old days” of judo, with serious teachers, some of whom also had other ju-jutsu experience, in parallel with their judo.
    So the judo he teached in the West was pre-war judo, much closer to a martial art then, than nowadays competition-oriented sport.

    The numbered waza thing was probably a much easier way to teach the various techniques to the french-speaking people from then, to whom japanese language must've been really hard to get.
    Altough in the "my method" manual, the japanese names were always given, together with the numbered name.

    The funny thing though, is that I learned Kubi-nage (for example) from my sensei, who got it from our Club founder, who learned it (and got all his Dan)… from Jean de Herdt and Kawaishi himself.
    So, in a personal way, I feel attached to it. Very Happy

    BTW, the Club I practice in is not a “Kawaishi” Club* per se, just a “traditional” one, which is rare enough.
    *I still know of at least one judo teacher who teaches “Kawaishi” judo in Brussels, but all the other Clubs are gone nowadays.


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    Post by Brainjutsu on Wed May 08, 2019 8:56 pm

    Why stop at Kawaishi when we can go even further into the past. Enter Yoshiaki Yamashita:

    http://credo.library.umass.edu/view/collection/muph006

    Klick "all digital" and see not just "kubi nage" but also some other interesting details.

    Btw, I learned "kubi nage" when learning jujutsu, not judo. I was told that "kubi nage" was considered unsafe for regular judo practice for being unsafe. And I have to say that both as tori and uke I did feel it to be harder than koshi guruma or tai otoshi probably because the throwing action seems more straight to the ground so you can't really break the fall as in regular judo techniques. However, I've also seen that term being used for techniques much different the one I learned.



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    Post by Jihef on Wed May 08, 2019 9:14 pm

    Brainjutsu wrote:Why stop at Kawaishi when we can go even further into the past. Enter Yoshiaki Yamashita:

    Klick "all digital" and see not just "kubi nage" but also some other interesting details.

    Btw, I learned "kubi nage" when learning jujutsu, not judo. I was told that "kubi nage" was considered unsafe for regular judo practice for being unsafe. And I have to say that both as tori and uke I did feel it to be harder than koshi guruma or tai otoshi probably because the throwing action seems more straight to the ground so you can't really break the fall as in regular judo techniques. However, I've also seen that term being used for techniques much different the one I learned.
    Great old pictures,
    where it is obvious that the “kube nage” pictured here has nothing to do with the Kawaishi waza, which is a variation of :
    Jihef wrote: koshi-guruma.
    Personally I like kubi-nage as a possible follow-up to koshi-guruma, if uke blocks the entry, like in tsuri-komi-goshi in the Nage-no-Kata, for example.


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    Post by finarashi on Fri May 10, 2019 5:54 am

    Please try not to confuse things. Kodokan names only "principles" not variations. Kodokan consideres kubi nage a variation (depending of the principle) and not a principle of throw by its own right.

    We know what it means when we talk of laats, khabarelli, ken ken uchi-mata, but we do NOT in Kodokan judo claim that they are different principles of throws.

    In ne-waza this creates a lot of confusion as even in the very early texts se e.g Oda there are number of ways to do things like turn uke or lock uke's arm, but they are not different in principle (e.g. in the end the uke's arm is locked the same way) so they do not have the official different name.

    e.g. The A to Z of Judo, Hoare, Sydney R. (1939 - 2017), London, United Kingdom, Ippon Books, 2000, 192p. Lists all various names we see techniques in the West.

    You can see the way Kodokan uses for naming in the Kodokan Judo : Throwing techniques, Daigo, Toshirō (1926 - ), White, Francoise, Tokyo, Japan Kodansha Europe, 2005, 285p where under each technique (i.e. principle of throwing) are listed various variations (pun intended) and even explanations and comparisons to other old techniques i.e. why a throw named that belongs actually to the group of throws using the principle named xxx.



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    Post by Jihef on Fri May 10, 2019 5:33 pm

    finarashi wrote:Please try not to confuse things. Kodokan names only "principles" not variations. Kodokan consideres kubi nage a variation (depending of the principle) and not a principle of throw by its own right.
    Hello Finarashi,
    where you adressing me ? Question

    Because we write the same thing : Kubi-nage (Kawaishi style) is a variation of Koshi-guruma. Smile


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