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    How the goshin jutsu became a Kata

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    yarielz

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    Post by yarielz on Sat Apr 06, 2019 10:30 am

    Greetings and respects for everybody. I am new in this forum but I will like to make a question. In 1956 we saw Kenji Tomiki and Tadao Otaki gave the first public demonstration of the Goshin Jutsu at the Kagami Biraki at the Nippon Budokan It was the end of more of three years of research and if you see the video looks more like a street fight than a Kata. Nevertheless, soon the concept change and they decide to make the whole system a Kata and made part of the Kodokan curriculum. Does anyone know who or why they decide to make this change?
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    NBK2

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    Post by NBK2 on Wed Apr 10, 2019 5:25 pm

    There are a number of posts on this forum that describe the change, i think.

    'They' would be the Kodokan Kata Committee. After adopted it as a series of techniques to be used as a point of departure for the study of self defense, I'm not sure there was ever a single decision to 'make it a kata' but the instruction in it was in the form of a kata, then people demonstrated it, then it was graded as a kata.... and today there is not a single class in self defense in the Kodokan that I know.
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    Post by noboru on Fri Apr 12, 2019 6:38 pm

    NBK2 wrote:After adopted it as a series of techniques to be used as a point of departure for the study of self defense,

    interesting. Thank you
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    yarielz

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    Post by yarielz on Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:52 pm

    Thank you for your time and collaboration I was waiting to see; If there was any special moment or directive of the Kodokan that marked the decision of the Kodokan Goshin Jutsu were trained in a more formal way.
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    Post by finarashi on Sun Apr 14, 2019 5:44 pm

    Greetings, a good point to think about as we can not know the rationale of people involved.
    IMHO Kodokan, by its nature is a commercial organization. To exist it must get funding. In the 1950's self-defence was popular and Kodokan looked at possibilities to emphasize the self-defence part of the Judo. The old kata were not very appropriate for modern self defence. So they tried a different path.
    Then 1960 Olympics, Judo as a sport and huge popularity. There was no need for self-defence. Self-defence was delegated to only as part of grading curriculum for higher belts. So the required learning reduced to kata type of learning.
    With revival of interest in wider curricula and especially to kata then the kata form of goshin-jutsu became popular.
    IMHO some start to perform it with intensity seen before i.e realistic attack, realistic defense.


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    Post by Jonesy on Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:36 pm

    Kodokan-goshinjutsu is not a formal kata, it does not carry the suffix “-no-kata”. No deliberate change to make the informal self defence exercise a kata took place, however it was revised on a number of occasions, with the defences evolved - see the last gun defence sequence.

    With the advent of kata competitions things got a lot lot more formal to enable judging. There is a great, comprehensive paper on the KGJ by Jones, Gatling and Savage - worth a read.....


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    porl

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    Post by porl on Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:34 am

    It looks rougher, but still the same kinds of unrealistic strikes that Aikido demonstrations are known for (not surprising given Tomiki's input).

    I think it is interesting from a historical point of view, but I think it is misleading to promote it as useful for self defence (any more than saying Kime no Kata is useful for self defence).

    Bit off topic sorry, but I was secretly hoping that the old video would show some more realism.

    Video here for reference in case others haven't seen it.


    Edit: Sorry I should clarify that I wasn't pointing at anyone here to say they are claiming its usefulness, I was just speaking about people in Judo in general that may believe and teach that.
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    Post by Jonesy on Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:44 am

    porl wrote:It looks rougher, but still the same kinds of unrealistic strikes that Aikido demonstrations are known for (not surprising given Tomiki's input).

    I think it is interesting from a historical point of view, but I think it is misleading to promote it as useful for self defence (any more than saying Kime no Kata is useful for self defence).

    Bit off topic sorry, but I was secretly hoping that the old video would show some more realism.

    Video here for reference in case others haven't seen it.


    Edit: Sorry I should clarify that I wasn't pointing at anyone here to say they are claiming its usefulness, I was just speaking about people in Judo in general that may believe and teach that.
    Will you explain why you do not think KGJ is useful, please?


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    Post by porl on Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:50 am

    Because, like most of Aikido it is practiced and assumes attacks are done in very unrealistic manners. People do not generally punch, kick or stab in the ways done in the KGJ. This is prevalent in arts like Aikido and "traditional martial arts" (of course we know that most "traditional arts" are anything but) that are not pressure tested in randori/sparring.

    These counters often leave you open for follow up strikes or are just not realistic against hard aggressive resistance.

    In something like the Nage no Kata, an unrealistic strike isn't a problem so much - it is there to show a principle of kuzushi. But in the KGJ it is being taught as a strike that you will be able to defend in this way. This is a great way to get people hurt.
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    Post by yarielz on Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:34 am

    As you said this type of discussion exceeds the theme of this poster. However, If you think that the Kodokan Goshin Jutsu is an obsolete and impractical kata for self-defense I feel compelled to show you some things. So let's take the example of Krav Maga, which I hope will be a modern self-defense system that meets your expectations. In one of its main techniques, Tori dodges Uke’s attack with one hand, and at the same time hits Uke's face with the other. The same movement is present in the first technique of the group of defense against staff, which certainly is not a movement of Aikido, and you are right, where the blows are somewhat choreographed, but from their predecessor the Aiki Jujitsu. Before Morihei Ueshiba transformed it into a “way of transcending” to break the dichotomy he had between the teachings from the Omoto kyo sect about world harmony and peace, and the violent and aggressive instincts of his Aiki jujitsu Master Sokaku Takeda.

    That’s why  I recommend you to take  a second look at the Kodokan Goshin Jutsu not from the point of view of the observer, but the practitioner, use a skillful Uke and try the techniques one by one without interest in the sequence of the kata, until you dominated each one of them, and little by little you will begin to discover new things and principles that have always been there, but that you have never noticed.
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    NBK2

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    Post by NBK2 on Thu Apr 18, 2019 2:43 am

    Again I point out that KGJ was originally meant to be a point of departure for the study of self-defense.

    There are many different sorts of martial arts - some like Kyokushin karatedo posit a very skillful, determined, strong opponent. Others assume an unskilled attacker, not a cool boxer or experienced martial artist looking for an opening for a deadly attack, but rather a hot headed and unskilled attack.

    Confusing the differences does not make anything more clear.

    But a capable judoka with some experience and the right tools should be able to present a decent showing.
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    porl

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    Post by porl on Thu Apr 18, 2019 10:44 am

    Hi Yarielz

    I have practiced the Goshin Jutsu so am not talking just from an observer point of view (though given how often people do I can understand that assumption).

    I am not really a fan of Krav Maga. There is too much hypotheticals and too much "do this and you'll disable them" type practice and not enough live training. This is the same issue with virtually any "street" art. I have not seen anything from Aiki Jitsu/ Aiki Jujtusu that has looked anything approaching practical, however I admit I have not bothered to dig very deep.

    The problem with having to train the techniques of the goshin jutsu over and over to discover the "secrets" contained within is that those principles and concepts are much more readily trainable in more efficient manners, and many of the concepts are too limited in scope due to out-dated assumptions of opponent movement and motivation.

    If you can show me these movements being used against people that are seriously trying to strike etc. properly (NOT choreographed no matter how "realistic" the speed) then I could change my mind. However when practicing uke 's role for the goshin jutsu I had to consistently go completely against my instinct and understanding of striking in order to feed the technique correctly.

    This is not a problem when used in something like the nage no kata where it is just used to demonstrate the moment of kuzushi, however the goal of the Kodokan was to develop something that was useful for "modern" self defence, and even if that is a misunderstanding of some actual intention to somehow encode somewhat modern self defence concepts into something different on the surface that is not the best thing to promote to people these days as being a good way to train to keep safe "on the streets".

    I see no difference with this as I do Kime no Kata. No one in their right mind should think that if a new student came looking for training to keep themselves safe then the best thing is to show them kime no kata. Goshin jutsu should have the same focus - interesting from a historical view, some interesting principles contained within (when you ignore the actual technique itself and just look at what the technique uses underneath), but definitely not a good way to train for self defence.


    EDIT: Just saw NBK2's post. Are you suggesting I am confusing the differences? Apologies if I am missing your point, could you clarify what is being confused? Thanks
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    Post by yarielz on Sat Apr 20, 2019 1:01 pm

    Hello porl

    I am not indifferent to your claims, the person who taught me this great kata was a Professor of Judo and self-defense to the point that he ended up creating his own self-defense system, he confessed to me after finished teaching me the Kata “I don’t think the Kodokan had done a good job with this kata and I don’t see the usefulness of these techniques”. Although he consciously or unconsciously used the principles of the defenses against pistol to elaborated those of his self-defense system.

    The Kodokan goshin jutsu isn’t a kata to learn self-defense or either to teach it. I have studied this kata for over 25 years and taught self-defense for over 20 years and I believe that I have never used any technique directly from the kata, although I have used its principles. This Kata is more like the DNA of self-defense where the codes necessary to develop any self-defense system are preserved.

    Why the secret? Let me explain something to you. Just finished World War II Japan lost and is controlled by the United States, that decides what should be done and not in Japan. At that time the Kodokan decided to create what Kano for fear, that it ended up being used by the military, had opposed, a system of modern self-defense. Moreover, form a Committee with the task of creating a bridge between all those ancestral traditions of strategies and tactics of the Jutsu “not the Do”, and adapt them to the modern way. This happened under the gaze of the Americans and considering that many of those who participated in the development this kata like Sumiyuki Kotani, Tadao Otaki, Kenji Tomiki between others taught self-defense within the Strategic Air Command (SAC) program to the US troops, his sworn enemies only 5 years ago. Next to the damn obsession of the whole East of never say things directly as the West, but only “the meaning”, explains the secret and apparently inoperability of the system. If not look at the Itsusu No Kata and the Koshiki no Kata.

    Why the aggressive Uke? This is a personal recommendation when I try the Kata techniques against soft attacks and it works. but against the strongest attacks didn’t. Example: the defense against Mae Geri, when I was trying to catch the foot of an experienced Karateka seemed an impossible and laughable task, but I assumed that I was doing the technique incorrectly, and I worked the subtleties until I achieved a result that met my expectations.

    Another myth is that the attacks are typical of people without experience. I grew up in a bad neighborhood, the memories of my childhood always imply being fighting with someone. However, when I started training Judo with just a yellow belt, I gained a great advantage against my attackers, so you don’t need a Yon Dan in Judo and a Kodokan Kata to defend yourself against an inexperienced attacker; Therefore, this kata is to prepare you against highly training attackers. I don’t say “ninjas”, but close. Let's see some examples of the attacks of the second group “When attacked from distance”. First attack Naname Uchi, hit the temple, effect KO or death, Second attack Ago Tsuki, hit the chin, effect KO, Third attack, Gammen Tsuki, hit the face, effect KO, Fourth attack, Mae Geri, kick to the hypogastrium, effect KO, Fifth attack Yoko Geri, kick to the liver, effect KO or death. The only thing more effective than this would be a Magnum 357.

    In conclusion, I think I have an idea of what you want to see, but unfortunately I did not find the appropriate images and the closest thing is this video of Taiho Jutsu, which was at that time the Japanese police self-defense system developed at the same time of the Kodokan goshin jutsu if you see the whole video they give it as a transition from the ancient to the modern arts. In this demonstration to prepare the police in real time, you will see many of the techniques of the goshin jutsu in different applications.



    Note: This is the kind of demonstration I would like to show you. In one of your previous comments, you were talking about the ineffectiveness of the techniques of the Nage no Kata for a real-time situation. This video shows you a 100 percent effective real-time application of the Second movement of Nage no Kata.

    Ippon seoi nage

    I hope this will help you to understand my point of view of this kata and applications.


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    Post by porl on Sat Apr 20, 2019 8:38 pm

    the person who taught me this great kata was a Professor of Judo and self-defense to the point that he ended up creating his own self-defense system, he confessed to me after finished teaching me the Kata “I don’t think the Kodokan had done a good job with this kata and I don’t see the usefulness of these techniques”. Although he consciously or unconsciously used the principles of the defenses against pistol to elaborated those of his self-defense system.

    I'm not saying the kata does not include principles, merely that it is an extremely ineffective means to transmit this information. Beyond its historical interest it is not a "useful" method of teaching self defence concepts. All of the principles are teachable with more relevant methods and techniques. These principles are not unique to the kata and the fact that your teacher taught self defence that included principles common with it is not surprising.

    The Kodokan goshin jutsu isn’t a kata to learn self-defense or either to teach it. I have studied this kata for over 25 years and taught self-defense for over 20 years and I believe that I have never used any technique directly from the kata, although I have used its principles. This Kata is more like the DNA of self-defense where the codes necessary to develop any self-defense system are preserved.

    My main point is that people believe that it is a means of teaching self defence. Again, using principles that are in the kata does not equate to having learnt the principles purely from it. I do not see at all how one could realistically use it as a base to develop any "system". It is just too far removed from reality to be useful in this context. It is the same as saying you could develop a "grappling system" by studying Aikido and applying its "hidden principles". Arguing that Aikido "contains" some of the principles that more effective grappling does is in no way an argument to say that Aikido is a good base to build grappling from. This is the exact same situation: the kata contains some useful principles but they are so deeply buried under the ineffective movements and assumptions that they are only useful to people that already are exposed to these principles elsewhere (that is, not at all useful).


    Why the secret? Let me explain something to you. Just finished World War II Japan lost and is controlled by the United States, that decides what should be done and not in Japan. At that time the Kodokan decided to create what Kano for fear, that it ended up being used by the military, had opposed, a system of modern self-defense. Moreover, form a Committee with the task of creating a bridge between all those ancestral traditions of strategies and tactics of the Jutsu “not the Do”, and adapt them to the modern way.

    "Modern way" is the problem I have with this. There is nothing modern about the training methodology, the assumptions being made (apart from some barely passable gun defence) and nothing modern about the principles it supposedly provides.


    This happened under the gaze of the Americans and considering that many of those who participated in the development this kata like Sumiyuki Kotani, Tadao Otaki, Kenji Tomiki between others taught self-defense within the Strategic Air Command (SAC) program to the US troops, his sworn enemies only 5 years ago.
    The hand-to-hand combat systems of the US troops (especially back this far in time) are far from ideal. There are many reasons these systems were scrapped in favour of MCMAP (itself having issues) and re-investigating things with more modern methodologies, i.e. pressure testing.


    Next to the damn obsession of the whole East of never say things directly as the West, but only “the meaning”, explains the secret and apparently inoperability of the system. If not look at the Itsusu No Kata and the Koshiki no Kata.

    This is definitely true, but in the same way that Ju no Kata and Nage no Kata are not the only (nor necessarily best way) of teaching the concept of Kuzushi, Goshin Jutsu is not the best way to teach these self defence principles.


    Why the aggressive Uke? This is a personal recommendation when I try the Kata techniques against soft attacks and it works. but against the strongest attacks didn’t. Example: the defense against Mae Geri, when I was trying to catch the foot of an experienced Karateka seemed an impossible and laughable task, but I assumed that I was doing the technique incorrectly, and I worked the subtleties until I achieved a result that met my expectations.

    This one of the major the problems with it I am trying to explain. You needed to train properly against someone that was attacking properly before you could then bring the technique "back into" the kata. It did not teach the correct instincts, as it is a poor tool for this. It taught you a technique in a way, but you needed to train it outside the scope of the kata for it to become useful. Having said that I will concede that this movement is one of the few reasonable techniques in the kata (though the "finish" of pushing uke away makes no sense, one could argue that it is symbolic as you have already mentioned so I can look past that as just an artefact of "hiding" the "true" techniques).


    Therefore, this kata is to prepare you against highly training attackers. I don’t say “ninjas”, but close.

    Strongly disagree. If that it is its purpose then I will say it fails utterly.


    ...hit the temple, effect KO or death, ... hit the chin, effect KO, ... hit the face, effect KO, ... kick to the hypogastrium, effect KO, ... kick to the liver, effect KO or death. The only thing more effective than this would be a Magnum 357.

    No no no. These are oft-repeated myths that have no basis in reality. Ignoring the fact that the strikes as performed in this kata have absolutely no power behind them, people get hit in the temple, chin, face, hypogastrium, liver etc. many times by highly trained fighters and extremely few of those result in immediate KOs and there are a statistically insignificant number of immediate deaths resulting from these when not "sucker punched" (and even then the vast majority of them do not result in either effect).

    More importantly though, show me literally one example of a trained person performing an upper-cut type punch to the chin by stepping forward on the same foot as the strike. It is not how a trained person strikes at all, and completely removes all power from the strike. The other strikes are performed in the same unrealistic way. Once cannot say that these attacks are designed to represent trained attacks. Neither do they represent the chaotic (but much simpler to defend as you mentioned) movements of an untrained attacker. The only place I've seen similar movements is in the movements of uke feeding tori in Aikido and offshoots. No amount of training against these will give you useful instincts for a real situation.


    In conclusion, I think I have an idea of what you want to see, but unfortunately I did not find the appropriate images and the closest thing is this video of Taiho Jutsu, which was at that time the Japanese police self-defense system developed at the same time of the Kodokan goshin jutsu if you see the whole video they give it as a transition from the ancient to the modern arts. In this demonstration to prepare the police in real time, you will see many of the techniques of the goshin jutsu in different applications.

    I see the same issues here as in the Goshin Jutsu.



    Note: This is the kind of demonstration I would like to show you. In one of your previous comments, you were talking about the ineffectiveness of the techniques of the Nage no Kata for a real-time situation. This video shows you a 100 percent effective real-time application of the Second movement of Nage no Kata.

    Ippon seoi nage

    I did not mean to say the techniques in the Nage no Kata are ineffective - seoi nage is obviously an effective technique in and of itself as has been proven in pressure testing time and time again. The "strike" uke does is nonsense, but since the point is to show the over-reaching motion of uke that could be achieved in other ways it is not an issue. The Nage no Kata at no point is claimed to be teaching how to defend against a strike, it just uses a stylised one to show an idea. Goshin Jutsu is not in the same category here - it is claimed to contain self defence techniques. Saying that the "real" concepts are just hidden in it is no different to saying the true effectiveness of Aikido is hidden from the lay-person and only diving deeper and deeper into it do you eventually realise how useful it is. Unfortunately reality does not work that way and it is in my opinion just a way to cover over the fact that it was not as useful as first hoped (again, in the same way Aikido has been shown to be).
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    Post by yarielz on Sun Apr 21, 2019 6:32 am



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