+13
JudoTerrier
Neil G
Dutch Budo
Davaro
Shindai Warrior
annmaria
Cichorei Kano
judoratt
genetic judoka
JudoStu
Stacey
Ricebale
afulldeck
17 posters
ufc ronda rousey vs liz carmouche
annmaria- Posts : 20
Join date : 2013-02-08
- Post n°26
Re: ufc ronda rousey vs liz carmouche
I asked her why she didn't do that. She said after Carmouche slipped out the first time when she was going into matwork and got on her back, she decided she was not going to attempt a second arm bar until she was able to lock it in really tight, so she didn't go for the ude garami because she didn't feel that she had Liz held as tightly as she would like to be 100% sure of the submission
genetic judoka- Posts : 541
Join date : 2012-12-30
Age : 37
Location : Florida
- Post n°27
Re: ufc ronda rousey vs liz carmouche
thanks, it's awesome to get some inside commentary.annmaria wrote:I asked her why she didn't do that. She said after Carmouche slipped out the first time when she was going into matwork and got on her back, she decided she was not going to attempt a second arm bar until she was able to lock it in really tight, so she didn't go for the ude garami because she didn't feel that she had Liz held as tightly as she would like to be 100% sure of the submission
genetic judoka- Posts : 541
Join date : 2012-12-30
Age : 37
Location : Florida
- Post n°28
Re: ufc ronda rousey vs liz carmouche
also while we're on the subject, is there any chance of talking Ronda into creating an account here?
Cichorei Kano- Posts : 1948
Join date : 2013-01-16
Age : 864
Location : the Holy See
- Post n°29
Re: ufc ronda rousey vs liz carmouche
genetic judoka wrote:also while we're on the subject, is there any chance of talking Ronda into creating an account here?
Rondadori rocks !!!
Shindai Warrior- Posts : 14
Join date : 2013-01-21
Location : Toon Town
- Post n°30
Re: ufc ronda rousey vs liz carmouche
annmaria wrote:I asked her why she didn't do that. She said after Carmouche slipped out the first time when she was going into matwork and got on her back, she decided she was not going to attempt a second arm bar until she was able to lock it in really tight, so she didn't go for the ude garami because she didn't feel that she had Liz held as tightly as she would like to be 100% sure of the submission
I thought the kesa gatame worked very well. Tactically, it allowed Rhonda to demonstrate control and dominance, to soften Carmouche a little physically but even more so psychologically.
After being held helplessly and realizing Rhonda could, with her free hand, punch her in the face at will, Carmouche began to sense her time to surrender was closing in and it did.
Dominating the mind of uke is, I believe, as much a purpose of a ground hold as is the physical domination.
Davaro- Posts : 224
Join date : 2013-01-04
Location : South Africa
- Post n°31
Re: ufc ronda rousey vs liz carmouche
Ricebale wrote:Ronda also spoke about the adjustment in mma whereby she doesn't have to rush submissions, she stated the reason she missed the first attempt was her judo reflex to attempt an immediate finish
Interesting this.... I have found the same, and received the same comments when I was training with some MMA/BJJ guys. I would try to rush the application and they would be all chess-like.
Also, when working in Gi, the "rush application" of techniques takes the guys a little off guard... But, causes me to gas quickly and then they just play around with me.
I followed this fight on twitter, with my phone, while fishing off the rocks around 6am Sunday morning here...
Refresh button a bit worn out on the old Blackberry. Esp when Liz had was sounded like an almost closed rear-naked at one point.
All the best to Ronda (Hope she starts an account here, would be great!)
Ricebale- Posts : 423
Join date : 2013-01-01
Location : Wollongong Australia
- Post n°32
Re: ufc ronda rousey vs liz carmouche
Stacey wrote:Ricebale wrote:
Ronda also spoke about the adjustment in mma whereby she doesn't have to rush submissions, she stated the reason she missed the first attempt was her judo reflex to attempt an immediate finish
Yeah, I heard that. Thought that was quite an important observation, and one that could only be made by a person accomplished in both sports. I'd love to hear more comparisons.
I did BJJ before I did Judo. I noticed this at Judo training and in my first Judo comp I was very taken aback by how I was forced to give up an advantage position due to "inactivity".
Since doing MMA I have found there is a balance as in MMA you get more time to apply a sub than Judo but not as much time as BJJ. You sort of need the set up of BJJ and the explosion of Judo subs to rip it off properly in modern MMA. Possibly why the straight arm bar is not used as much anymore, most subs are chokes either RNC or Guillotines.
JudoStu- Posts : 212
Join date : 2013-01-04
Age : 51
Location : UK
- Post n°33
Re: ufc ronda rousey vs liz carmouche
I was suprised by Ronda's use of Kesa-gatame and was worried that Liz was going to escape and take her back but what do I know
Davaro- Posts : 224
Join date : 2013-01-04
Location : South Africa
- Post n°34
Re: ufc ronda rousey vs liz carmouche
JudoStu wrote:I was suprised by Ronda's use of Kesa-gatame and was worried that Liz was going to escape and take her back but what do I know
I am not going to say its a myth, but I hear this often. I am of the opinion that a well executed Kesa is not easy to just reverse and "take the back"
Like forward throws as well... I hear often the argument that the back will be taken but I dont see this when people well versed do the throws. Sure, a loose throw, or a loose Kesa will probably result in the back being taken but not generally when done by experienced Judoka.
JudoStu- Posts : 212
Join date : 2013-01-04
Age : 51
Location : UK
- Post n°35
Re: ufc ronda rousey vs liz carmouche
Davaro wrote:JudoStu wrote:I was suprised by Ronda's use of Kesa-gatame and was worried that Liz was going to escape and take her back but what do I know
I am not going to say its a myth, but I hear this often. I am of the opinion that a well executed Kesa is not easy to just reverse and "take the back"
Not easy to do but probably easier without the gi, also there has to be a reason that we don't often see Kesa Gatame used in MMA
Dutch Budo- Posts : 95
Join date : 2013-01-03
Age : 38
Location : The Netherlands
- Post n°36
Re: ufc ronda rousey vs liz carmouche
Her tendency to grab around the head will cause her to lose a fight somewhere in the future. It almost happened in this one, which would have been disastrous for women mma. That or a well placed punch on closing the distance. These are two things she needs to work on.
Neil G- Posts : 117
Join date : 2013-01-23
Age : 62
Location : Saskatoon, SK, Canada
- Post n°37
Re: ufc ronda rousey vs liz carmouche
Regarding the wardrobe - I read that she was using her weigh-in bra at the request of somebody or other and it didn't work out. She said "So next time, bigger bra".
genetic judoka- Posts : 541
Join date : 2012-12-30
Age : 37
Location : Florida
- Post n°38
Re: ufc ronda rousey vs liz carmouche
her weigh in bra? really? wow. I mean how much weight difference is there between the heaviest non-novelty sports bra and the lightest?Neil G wrote:Regarding the wardrobe - I read that she was using her weigh-in bra at the request of somebody or other and it didn't work out. She said "So next time, bigger bra".
genetic judoka- Posts : 541
Join date : 2012-12-30
Age : 37
Location : Florida
- Post n°39
Re: ufc ronda rousey vs liz carmouche
one thing I've found in my admittedly brief time in BJJ, is that despite the commentary from green belt friends who also do BJJ elsewhere about it being dangerous, nobody can budge me when I get into kesa. I could stay there the whole round were it not for the emphasis on going for submissions. and yet I can take many people's backs fairly easily when they put me in kesa. I guess what it comes down to is being good at kesa.JudoStu wrote:Davaro wrote:JudoStu wrote:I was suprised by Ronda's use of Kesa-gatame and was worried that Liz was going to escape and take her back but what do I know
I am not going to say its a myth, but I hear this often. I am of the opinion that a well executed Kesa is not easy to just reverse and "take the back"
Not easy to do but probably easier without the gi, also there has to be a reason that we don't often see Kesa Gatame used in MMA
in fact I can say with reasonable confidence that a majority of the people who say don't go for kesa, are people who don't know how to actively move while on top in kesa. in fact why did she get her back taken? because the fence got in the way of moving properly.
one could say that rolling for a juji when you're on top is dangerous, because after all you're giving up top position for a sub that may or may not work. but if you're good at juji the risk is worth it because your odds are better. I guess it's the same concept really. if you're not good at something it's always dangerous to attempt against a skilled opponent.
Stacey- Posts : 554
Join date : 2013-01-17
Location : your worst nightmares
- Post n°40
Re: ufc ronda rousey vs liz carmouche
genetic judoka wrote:her weigh in bra? really? wow. I mean how much weight difference is there between the heaviest non-novelty sports bra and the lightest?Neil G wrote:Regarding the wardrobe - I read that she was using her weigh-in bra at the request of somebody or other and it didn't work out. She said "So next time, bigger bra".
It's not a matter of weight - it's a matter of styling and advertising. As she experienced, and as we saw with the "taking the back" bit, there's a difference between clothing meant for fighting and clothing that is merely a fashion statement.
Stacey- Posts : 554
Join date : 2013-01-17
Location : your worst nightmares
- Post n°41
Re: ufc ronda rousey vs liz carmouche
genetic judoka wrote:one thing I've found in my admittedly brief time in BJJ, is that despite the commentary from green belt friends who also do BJJ elsewhere about it being dangerous, nobody can budge me when I get into kesa. I could stay there the whole round were it not for the emphasis on going for submissions. and yet I can take many people's backs fairly easily when they put me in kesa. I guess what it comes down to is being good at kesa.JudoStu wrote:Davaro wrote:JudoStu wrote:I was suprised by Ronda's use of Kesa-gatame and was worried that Liz was going to escape and take her back but what do I know
I am not going to say its a myth, but I hear this often. I am of the opinion that a well executed Kesa is not easy to just reverse and "take the back"
Not easy to do but probably easier without the gi, also there has to be a reason that we don't often see Kesa Gatame used in MMA
in fact I can say with reasonable confidence that a majority of the people who say don't go for kesa, are people who don't know how to actively move while on top in kesa. in fact why did she get her back taken? because the fence got in the way of moving properly.
one could say that rolling for a juji when you're on top is dangerous, because after all you're giving up top position for a sub that may or may not work. but if you're good at juji the risk is worth it because your odds are better. I guess it's the same concept really. if you're not good at something it's always dangerous to attempt against a skilled opponent.
I think we don't see a lot of kesa because we don't see a lot of people knowledgeable about kesa. We don't see people like Ronda who really know how to apply kesa.
I think the fact that carmouche kept trying to hook the head with her legs demonstrates 1. the vast majority of people have no clue about a good kesa, and 2. as a result, they have no clue about even attempting to get out of kesa. Instead, they learn to try to hook the head - something that works with inexperienced kesa practitioners or in that short period of time when the practitioner is locking it in.
Ronda showed excellent control with her kesa, as well as the importance of her own head position. It was truly a clinic on the potency of a good kesa in MMA.
Dutch Budo- Posts : 95
Join date : 2013-01-03
Age : 38
Location : The Netherlands
- Post n°42
Re: ufc ronda rousey vs liz carmouche
Stacey wrote:genetic judoka wrote:one thing I've found in my admittedly brief time in BJJ, is that despite the commentary from green belt friends who also do BJJ elsewhere about it being dangerous, nobody can budge me when I get into kesa. I could stay there the whole round were it not for the emphasis on going for submissions. and yet I can take many people's backs fairly easily when they put me in kesa. I guess what it comes down to is being good at kesa.JudoStu wrote:Davaro wrote:JudoStu wrote:I was suprised by Ronda's use of Kesa-gatame and was worried that Liz was going to escape and take her back but what do I know
I am not going to say its a myth, but I hear this often. I am of the opinion that a well executed Kesa is not easy to just reverse and "take the back"
Not easy to do but probably easier without the gi, also there has to be a reason that we don't often see Kesa Gatame used in MMA
in fact I can say with reasonable confidence that a majority of the people who say don't go for kesa, are people who don't know how to actively move while on top in kesa. in fact why did she get her back taken? because the fence got in the way of moving properly.
one could say that rolling for a juji when you're on top is dangerous, because after all you're giving up top position for a sub that may or may not work. but if you're good at juji the risk is worth it because your odds are better. I guess it's the same concept really. if you're not good at something it's always dangerous to attempt against a skilled opponent.
I think we don't see a lot of kesa because we don't see a lot of people knowledgeable about kesa. We don't see people like Ronda who really know how to apply kesa.
I think the fact that carmouche kept trying to hook the head with her legs demonstrates 1. the vast majority of people have no clue about a good kesa, and 2. as a result, they have no clue about even attempting to get out of kesa. Instead, they learn to try to hook the head - something that works with inexperienced kesa practitioners or in that short period of time when the practitioner is locking it in.
Ronda showed excellent control with her kesa, as well as the importance of her own head position. It was truly a clinic on the potency of a good kesa in MMA.
Except when her back got taken.
Trust me, she better unlearn this technique.
genetic judoka- Posts : 541
Join date : 2012-12-30
Age : 37
Location : Florida
- Post n°43
Re: ufc ronda rousey vs liz carmouche
in summary, what we learned here is kesa is a bad position to go into when a wall or fence/cage limits your motion.Dutch Budo wrote:
Except when her back got taken.
Trust me, she better unlearn this technique.
Ricebale- Posts : 423
Join date : 2013-01-01
Location : Wollongong Australia
- Post n°44
Re: ufc ronda rousey vs liz carmouche
The kazure kesa is the usual mma position to avoid this
JudoTerrier- Posts : 16
Join date : 2013-01-10
Location : North Carolina, USA
- Post n°45
Re: ufc ronda rousey vs liz carmouche
[quote="Dutch Budo"][quote="Stacey"][quote="genetic judoka"]
Ronda's back got taken on the first kesa because she was so close to the cage that Carmouche was able to use it to climb up and over. No such luck on the second time around. I was watching it and thinking "sorry hon, judoka live here and you're not gonna get anywhere flailing your legs like that...."
However, this was much more of an actual fight that her previous ones. I'm glad Carmouche tapped out instead of getting her arm broken.
Erika
JudoStu wrote:Davaro wrote:
Ronda showed excellent control with her kesa, as well as the importance of her own head position. It was truly a clinic on the potency of a good kesa in MMA.
Except when her back got taken.
Trust me, she better unlearn this technique.
Ronda's back got taken on the first kesa because she was so close to the cage that Carmouche was able to use it to climb up and over. No such luck on the second time around. I was watching it and thinking "sorry hon, judoka live here and you're not gonna get anywhere flailing your legs like that...."
However, this was much more of an actual fight that her previous ones. I'm glad Carmouche tapped out instead of getting her arm broken.
Erika
Stacey- Posts : 554
Join date : 2013-01-17
Location : your worst nightmares
- Post n°46
Re: ufc ronda rousey vs liz carmouche
JudoTerrier wrote:
Ronda's back got taken on the first kesa because she was so close to the cage that Carmouche was able to use it to climb up and over. No such luck on the second time around. I was watching it and thinking "sorry hon, judoka live here and you're not gonna get anywhere flailing your legs like that...."
However, this was much more of an actual fight that her previous ones. I'm glad Carmouche tapped out instead of getting her arm broken.
Erika
me too. finally, somebody figured out it's better to tap than suffer through a snap.
judoratt- Posts : 309
Join date : 2012-12-30
Age : 66
Location : Seattle
- Post n°47
Re: ufc ronda rousey vs liz carmouche
it did hyperextend a bit I wonder how she's feeling today.She probably drilled tapping out almost as much as she drilled arm bar defense.
afulldeck- Posts : 377
Join date : 2012-12-30
- Post n°48
Re: ufc ronda rousey vs liz carmouche
I thought the women stole the show. There was no running away like Lyoto, no laying praying like Brendan and they were trying to finish the fight unlike Court. Very impressive fight overall.
Stacey- Posts : 554
Join date : 2013-01-17
Location : your worst nightmares
- Post n°49
Re: ufc ronda rousey vs liz carmouche
judoratt wrote:it did hyperextend a bit I wonder how she's feeling today.She probably drilled tapping out almost as much as she drilled arm bar defense.
Did you see her position herself and get ready to tap the moment she knew the arm was lost? Bet you're right - somebody said, "you know what? just in case, let's work on tapping. You really don't want to deal with the kind of damage some of these other women have suffered"
Decades of juji v. marine corps training; somebody in her camp was thinking.
Do look forward to carmouche's development as a fighter, but i also think it's going to be a long time before she's able to really challenge Rowdy, especially once Rowdy gets her gear situation settled.
You know, the good thing about MMA as opposed to judo is that Ronda's probably not dealing with a ton of gi burn to her chin today.
judoratt- Posts : 309
Join date : 2012-12-30
Age : 66
Location : Seattle
- Post n°50
Re: ufc ronda rousey vs liz carmouche
Very well said. Some of her previous opponents were ill prepared for Juji and suffered greatly because poor preparation and coaching.Stacey wrote:judoratt wrote:it did hyperextend a bit I wonder how she's feeling today.She probably drilled tapping out almost as much as she drilled arm bar defense.
Did you see her position herself and get ready to tap the moment she knew the arm was lost? Bet you're right - somebody said, "you know what? just in case, let's work on tapping. You really don't want to deal with the kind of damage some of these other women have suffered"
Decades of juji v. marine corps training; somebody in her camp was thinking.
Do look forward to carmouche's development as a fighter, but i also think it's going to be a long time before she's able to really challenge Rowdy, especially once Rowdy gets her gear situation settled.
You know, the good thing about MMA as opposed to judo is that Ronda's probably not dealing with a ton of gi burn to her chin today.
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