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    Translation of techniques in Katame-no-ura-waza

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    techman

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    Translation of techniques in Katame-no-ura-waza Empty Translation of techniques in Katame-no-ura-waza

    Post by techman on Sat Mar 30, 2013 12:12 am

    not sure of the translation of part of this kata, can anyone help.

    Ude-tori-kuzure kesagatame.
    Kaeshi-hon kesagatame
    Gyaku-te-hadaka-jime
    gyaku-te seoi otoshi to gatame
    Ude hishigi teko gatame
    Ude tori ushiro kesagatame

    Kaeri oki osaekomi
    Oshi taoshi kesagatame
    hidari kata sumi ho
    Ude tori makikomi
    Understand the translation of the other parts of the kata, but the above I could use some help with
    Jonesy
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    Translation of techniques in Katame-no-ura-waza Empty Re: Translation of techniques in Katame-no-ura-waza

    Post by Jonesy on Sun Mar 31, 2013 3:37 am

    Ude-tori-kuzure kesagatame = Arm holding modified (broken) scarf hold
    Kaeshi-hon kesagatame = Reverse (basic) scarf hold
    Gyaku-te-hadaka-jime = Reverse hand naked choke
    Gyaku-te seoi otoshi to juji gatame = Reverse hand shoulder drop to cross armlock
    Ude hishigi teko gatame = Arm taking lever lock
    Ude tori ushiro kesagatame = Arm holding reverse scarf hold

    Kaeri oki osaekomi = Return big hold down
    Oshi taoshi kesagatame = Push down scarf hold
    hidari kata sumi ho = Left single side method
    Ude tori makikomi = Arm holding winding
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    techman

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    Translation of techniques in Katame-no-ura-waza Empty Re: Translation of techniques in Katame-no-ura-waza

    Post by techman on Sun Mar 31, 2013 9:39 pm

    Jonesy wrote:Ude-tori-kuzure kesagatame = Arm holding modified (broken) scarf hold
    Kaeshi-hon kesagatame = Reverse (basic) scarf hold
    Gyaku-te-hadaka-jime = Reverse hand naked choke
    Gyaku-te seoi otoshi to juji gatame = Reverse hand shoulder drop to cross armlock
    Ude hishigi teko gatame = Arm taking lever lock
    Ude tori ushiro kesagatame = Arm holding reverse scarf hold

    Kaeri oki osaekomi = Return big hold down
    Oshi taoshi kesagatame = Push down scarf hold
    hidari kata sumi ho = Left single side method
    Ude tori makikomi = Arm holding winding

    Getting closer Jonesy to trying to figure out this Kata, many thaks again for your help. cheers
    NBK
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    Translation of techniques in Katame-no-ura-waza Empty Re: Translation of techniques in Katame-no-ura-waza

    Post by NBK on Mon Apr 01, 2013 7:41 pm

    Ude hishigi teko gatame = Arm taking lever lock
    should read:
    Ude hishigi kote gatame = Arm taking wrist lock

    I always translate 'hishigi' as crushing, don't really know what is used otherwise.

    Also, we were discussing this waza sequence at the dojo this weekend.  There was a group from the German Judo Federation that have been at the Kodokan for a couple of wks.  This is not a Kodokan recognized series - yet.  

    The waza was worked out by the Mifune faction at the KDK.  One of his senior students was Dr. Ito Kazuo, KDK 9dan, IMAF 10dan.  Ito sensei wrote the book describing this kata, and his uke for it was Sato Shizuya sensei, formerly of the Kodokan International Division, and later Managing Director, International Martial Arts Federation (IMAF).  Mifune sensei was also a senior member of IMAF.  

    Ito sensei told Sato sensei that Mifune sensei would see the countertechniques in his dreams, then try them out in the dojo.  Despite having many counters, he never organized them.  

    His bio:
    Dr. Ito Kazuo sensei was born in 1898 in Shinjo City, Yamagata Prefecture. He studied the art of jujutsu from childhood with his father.

    Upon graduation from Meiji University and the High Grade Judo Instructor School of the Kodokan, he entered the Kodokan as a judo 1st dan in April 1920. In May 1922 he entered the Mifune jukuto study under Mifune Kyuzo, who became the senior technical instructor of the Kodokan for many years.

    Postwar, Ito sensei was one of the first group of judo instructors to get certification from the Japan Ministry of Culture and Education allowing them to teach judo in public schools after the postwar Occupation ban of budo in public schools and facilities throughout Japan. In May 1958 he was awarded 9th dan by the Kodokan. A senior instructor of the Kodokan, he was a member of the Council of the Kodokan, Vice Chairman, All Japan High Rank Judoka Association (全日本柔道高段者会), an advisor of the Tokyo Judo Association, and an advisor to the American Embassy Judo Club, U.S. Embassy, Tokyo, Japan (www.usejc.com).

    He was a professor at Seijo Gakuen (now Seijo University), Meiji University, and Nippon Athletic University (now Nippon Sport Science University); a lecturer at Kogakuin University and Toyoko Gakuen Women's College.

    Ito sensei's later books note his academic credentials as Doctor of Science (理学博士).

    Ito sensei had five books on judo published:
    ○ 柔道敎書- -Judo Kyosho -Judo Instruction Book
    ○ This is Judo -1964 (English)
    ○ This is Judo for Women - 1968 (English)
    ○ 女子柔道・護身術- 1972 Joshi Judo -Goshinjutsu(Women's Judo -Self Defense)
    ○ 柔道の投げと固めの裏技- 1972 Judo no Nage to Katame no Urawaza (Counter Techniques to Judo Throws and Pins)

    Ito sensei studied the Counter Techniques under Mifune sensei and organized them into the current form (source: numerous conversations with Sato Shizuya sensei, American Embassy Judo Club, Tokyo, Japan, 1992-2011) as found in his text below and as transmitted by Sato Shizuya sensei.
    The forward was written by Ishii Mitsujirou 石井光次郎, the then Chairman, Japan Amateur Sports Association (now the Japan Sports Association), which was founded and chaired in July 1911 by Kano Jigoro shihan, the founder of Kodokan judo. Mr. Ishii was the former Speaker of the House of Representatives of Japan, an aikidoka, and a Kodokan Judo 6th dan. http://www.japan-sports.or.jp/english/tabid/104/Default.aspx
    A brief bio of Mr. Ishii adopted from Aikido Journal follows:

    Mitsujiro Ishii (1889-1981)was an early student of Morihei Ueshiba sensei, the founder of aikido, beginning around 1927 when Ueshiba was being actively promoted by Admiral Isamu Takeshita in Tokyo. In 1933, he provided the introduction that led to Ueshiba becoming the martial arts instructor of the Osaka branch of the Asahi News. Ishii was a managing director of the Asahi News company headquartered in Tokyo, and wielded a tremendous amount of influence in the Asahi company. He was a mentor and supporter of Takuma Hisa, and helped in the formation of the Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu Takumakai after the war.

    Ishii would later become an important figure in Japanese postwar politics. At one point, in 1957, he was one of the top candidates to become prime minister of Japan. Ishii served as a cabinet member in several administrations from the late 1940s through the early 1960s. He was also a golf enthusiast and served as president of the Japan Golf Association. Parenthetically, Ishii was the father of Yoshiko Ishii, a famous Japanese chanson singer who was a Japanese star for many years, and was also well-known in France and performed in major European venues.

    Adopted from <http://members.aikidojournal.com/public/historical-photo-time-machine-back-to-osaka-in-1935-by-stanley-pranin/>

    Sato Shizuya 佐藤静弥 was Ito sensei's uke for the photos in the book and many other publications. Sato sensei was Judo 10th dan, the founder of Nihon Jujutsu (www.nihonjujutsu.com) and Director, International Martial Arts Federation, 1982-2011.

    Sato sensei's father and Ito sensei were childhood friends, and when Sato sensei's father died at an early age, Ito sensei, who had no children of his own, and Sato sensei formed a very close personal and professional relationship that lasted until Ito sensei's death in 1974. In particular, Ito sensei and Sato sensei practiced the Nage to Katame no Urawaza together for decades, demonstrated it at many IMAF events, and Sato sensei continued its instruction at the American Embassy Judo Club.  IMAF Meijin including Mifune sensei, Dr. Ito sensei

    Japan Sports Assoc. / Mr. Ishii
    Cichorei Kano
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    Translation of techniques in Katame-no-ura-waza Empty Re: Translation of techniques in Katame-no-ura-waza

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Mon Apr 01, 2013 9:58 pm

    NBK wrote:Ude hishigi teko gatame = Arm taking lever lock
    should read:
    Ude hishigi kote gatame = Arm taking wrist lock

    I always translate 'hishigi' as crushing, don't really know what is used otherwise.

    Hishigi 挫ぎ --> 'overstretching' (litt. 'spraining' which is an injury resulting from overstretching structures rather than from overcompressing or crushing anatomical structures), as opposed to garami 絡み --> twisting (entangling) of a joint. Kôdôkan jûdô does not really contain 'crushing' (uchi-kudaku 打ち砕く) of a joint, though a number of atemi in the sense of "crushing blows" to body surfaces or vital points does occur in some kata (uchi-kudaki in koshiki-no-kata, yoko-uchi in kime-no-kata and joshi-goshinhô, naname-uchi in goshinjutsu and jû-no-kata, ushiro-uchi in joshi-goshinhô).

    That being said, the book edited by Itô actually does not list 'hishigi' 挫ぎ, but uses an alternative pronunciation, namely 'kujiki' 挫き, as indicated by the furigana on page 9. Similarly, the description of the technique on pages 66-67, does not list Ude-hishigi-kote-gatame 腕挫ぎ小手固, but Ude-kujiki-kote-gatame 腕挫きテコ固. Sorry.

    Ude hishigi kote gatame = "Arm taking wrist lock" ? That sounds like awkward English to me. The ude-hishigi-kote-gatame (or in this case, per Itô's own words and furigana, ude-kujiki-kote-gatame) is essentially a (ude-hishigi-) waki-gatame, but the control with both hands is more distal than in canonical waki-gatame hence why rather than just the arm, also the wrist (kote) is controlled, so really "arm-overstretching with wrist control". It isn't a wrist lock. The actual lock is applied at the elbow, thus an overstretching, just like it is in waki-gatame. This armbar is done in reaction to kuzure-kami-shihô-gatame. Katame-waza-ura-no-kata does not contain any movements that are not allowed in shiai. A true wrist lock would not be allowed, although likely many referees would erroneously consider this movement as a violation of shiai rules too, which it isn't.

    Lots of potential for confusion there. There are thus two different names that occur in the kata, namely Ude-kujiki-teko-gatame (NOT Ude-hishigi-teko-gatame) [see page 74 or page 9] and Ude-kujiki-kote-gatame (NOT Ude-hishigi-kote-gatame). 'Teko' in this case, as written in katakana, indicates "resisting", thus Ude-kujiki-teko-gatame. This is a movement which is done in reaction to okuri-eri-jime. The 'teko' refers to "resisting the attacker's arm action under your left armpit". After having resisted this action (thus the 'teko' action), and holding on to the attacker's arm, to make it even more confusing, you apply a te-gatame, but hold rather distal just as in the description in the previous paragraph for waki-gatame, hence why Itô refers to the armbar again at that point as Ude-kujiki-kote-gatame. In other words, the name of the main reaction movement is "Ude-kujiki-teko-gatame" [page 74] which he then concludes with "Ude-kujiki-kote-gatame" [page 75] but which does not appear to lend its name to the reaction movement. Sorry, but this is quite obvious from the description on pages 74-75. To label the 'teko' (written in katakana) as an error of 'kote' (written in kanji) would require evidence to support that claim.


    Last edited by Cichorei Kano on Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:32 am; edited 5 times in total


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    techman

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    Translation of techniques in Katame-no-ura-waza Empty Re: Translation of techniques in Katame-no-ura-waza

    Post by techman on Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:52 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    NBK wrote:Ude hishigi teko gatame = Arm taking lever lock
    should read:
    Ude hishigi kote gatame = Arm taking wrist lock

    I always translate 'hishigi' as crushing, don't really know what is used otherwise.

    Hishigi 挫き --> 'overstretching' (litt. 'spraining' which is an injury resulting from overstretching structures rather than from overcompressing or crushing anatomical structures), as opposed to garami 絡 --> twisting (entangling) of a joint. Kôdôkan jûdô does not really contain 'crushing' (uchi-kudaku 打ち砕く) of a joint, though a number of atemi in the sense of "crushing blows" to body surfaces or vital points does occur in some kata (uchi-kudaki in koshiki-no-kata, yoko-uchi in kime-no-kata and joshi-goshinhô, naname-uchi in goshinjutsu and jû-no-kata, ushiro-uchi in joshi-goshinhô).

    Ude hishigi kote gatame = "Arm taking wrist lock" ? That sounds like awkward English to me. The ude-hishigi-kote-gatame is essentially a waki-gatame, but the control with both hands is more distal than in canonical waki-gatame hence why rather than just the arm, also the wrist is controlled, so really "arm-overstretching with wrist control". It isn't a wrist lock. The actual lock is applied at the elbow, thus an overstretching, just like it is in waki-gatame. Katame-waza-ura-no-kata does not contain any movements that are not allowed in shiai. A true wrist lock would not be allowed, although likely many referees would erroneously consider this movement as a violation of shiai rules too, which it isn't.

    May I take the opportunity to thank everyone who has helped me with learning a lot more about this Kata. In particular C.K. and Jonesy. I think that until I get to see a demonstration of this Kata ,or indeed a book which shows it in detail, I will be unable to proceed any further. The rather awkward english translations make it difficult for me to relate the written counters to actual techniques which I would feel confident in attempting to reproduce.Please continue to update me with any new information which will eventually result in me being able to do the kata(to the best of my ability) study
    NBK
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    Translation of techniques in Katame-no-ura-waza Empty Re: Translation of techniques in Katame-no-ura-waza

    Post by NBK on Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:56 am

    I was in a hurry and screwed that up - thanks. I thought the kote gatame an odd name but that's what is used. I have a part of the book translated.

    I don't know how in the world you'd ever figure this out with just the names.

    And some of the moves have two counters. as CK noted.
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    Translation of techniques in Katame-no-ura-waza Empty Katame Waza Ura-no-Kata revisited

    Post by Kuden on Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:32 pm

    On 7th May this year, Doyukai decided to review Katame Waza Ura no Kata in a seminar and those "oldies" who knew Ito-sensei in person have started to refresh their memories since last Autumn. The book says you could practice it as kata but obviously it was not made as kata for the sake of kata. So the text contains ambiguities and even at some point it does not match the pictures attached to it. Never mind those "oldies" tried to bring back their memories and tried it this way or that way, finally affirming that oh, it was this way that we were taught.

    Last night on 7th fl. of the Kodokan, they started to examine some actions and in no time there were some 30 or more senior judoka around watching it. Some even volunteered to correct the movements!! which was all fun. Usually if you`d do that on the 7th floor, Kodokan officers would rush to you to stop it. I`m preparing some new photos to match the text which also needs to be rephrased for better clarity.

    To keep Ito-sensei fresh in memory, Doyukai has Nage waza Ura no Kata on 5th & 19th Nov. Also in memory of Ito-sensei, Umezu-sensei organizes a tournament every year on 3rd May. So Ito-sensei is well remembered within the Doyukai. But there are fewer and fewer judoka around the Kodokan who knew him in person. Last year we were asked to take away the Go boards in the old building of the Kodokan, which obviously Ito-sensei used. So no more ....
    NBK
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    Translation of techniques in Katame-no-ura-waza Empty Re: Translation of techniques in Katame-no-ura-waza

    Post by NBK on Wed Mar 04, 2015 10:54 pm

    So shall we all pass..... even Kanô sensei's teachings are often ignored today.

    I wish I could join the Dôyûkai regularly ... these are fun and important lessons to keep these special asides of jûdô alive.

    NBK
    Jonesy
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    Translation of techniques in Katame-no-ura-waza Empty Re: Translation of techniques in Katame-no-ura-waza

    Post by Jonesy on Thu Mar 05, 2015 5:23 am

    Kuden wrote:On 7th May this year, Doyukai decided to review Katame Waza Ura no Kata in a seminar and those "oldies" who knew Ito-sensei in person have started to refresh their memories since last Autumn. The book says you could practice it as kata but obviously it was not made as kata for the sake of kata. So the text contains ambiguities and even at some point it does not match the pictures attached to it. Never mind those "oldies" tried to bring back their memories and tried it this way or that way, finally affirming that oh, it was this way that we were taught.

    Last night on 7th fl. of the Kodokan, they started to examine some actions and in no time there were some 30 or more senior judoka around watching it. Some even volunteered to correct the movements!! which was all fun. Usually if you`d do that on the 7th floor, Kodokan officers would rush to you to stop it. I`m preparing some new photos to match the text which also needs to be rephrased for better clarity.

    To keep Ito-sensei fresh in memory, Doyukai has Nage waza Ura no Kata on 5th & 19th Nov. Also in memory of Ito-sensei, Umezu-sensei organizes a tournament every year on 3rd May. So Ito-sensei is well remembered within the Doyukai. But there are fewer and fewer judoka around the Kodokan who knew him in person. Last year we were asked to take away the Go boards in the old building of the Kodokan, which obviously Ito-sensei used. So no more ....
    This sounds a wonderful occasion.

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