Heirarchy in groundwork

Kesa's good because it is an easy transition from a standard or high lapel grip throw. But once you're actually on the ground kuzure kesa is superior in virtually every way--it's much harder to escape and your center of mass is in a better place.

Res Judicata wrote:Kesa's good because it is an easy transition from a standard or high lapel grip throw. But once you're actually on the ground kuzure kesa is superior in virtually every way--it's much harder to escape and your center of mass is in a better place.

It takes more skill to pin someone with the "standard" kuzure version, but it is more versatile for sure.

Res Judicata wrote:Kesa's good because it is an easy transition from a standard or high lapel grip throw. But once you're actually on the ground kuzure kesa is superior in virtually every way--it's much harder to escape and your center of mass is in a better place.

Agree. Also even if you have a solid understanding of any pin, none of them are easy to escape from if the guy on top knows what he is doing.

Res Judicata wrote:Kesa's good because it is an easy transition from a standard or high lapel grip throw. But once you're actually on the ground kuzure kesa is superior in virtually every way--it's much harder to escape and your center of mass is in a better place.

Again its all down to bodytypes/strength and whether its fully on. For me as a lightweight kuzure kesa is a no no control of the trunk is difficult if the person is larger. Control of head and arm much better, easy to apply strength on neck and arm and relax rest off body for 25sec's, using head/legs to post/swap and if escape is close twist and change the hold. I can hang on to the best for 25sec providing their not over 20kg heavier or have immense strength to free the arm and bench press me off.

Especially for beginners the scarf hold is like poison for their progression. Working with the underhook like in kuzure kesa or yoko shiho is more effective and learns them about basic control.

That said, are you nearing purple belt level and you can pull off the kesa gatame, by all means do so. Its just not something I would ever teach to beginners. And mind you, neither does judo, its kuzure kesa gatame that is in the kata.

Dutch Budo wrote:Especially for beginners the scarf hold is like poison for their progression. Working with the underhook like in kuzure kesa or yoko shiho is more effective and learns them about basic control.

That said, are you nearing purple belt level and you can pull off the kesa gatame, by all means do so. Its just not something I would ever teach to beginners. And mind you, neither does judo, its kuzure kesa gatame that is in the kata.

Don't disagree(poison!)one learns how to use what they have for judo time restraints. BJJ is a different animal.

Kuzure kesa and basic kesa are taught normally within the first coloured belt in most judo associations.

These days Munegatame tends to be the prefered early teaching then clock rotation progression to kuzurekesa/yokoshio/kamishio/ushirokesa/ back to kesa.

Katame no Kata is not needed in most syllabus's to green or brown/dan, depends on teacher or association. Exposure is hit and miss. so it has no precedence in it being early teaching in katame waza.

Dutch Budo wrote:Especially for beginners the scarf hold is like poison for their progression. Working with the underhook like in kuzure kesa or yoko shiho is more effective and learns them about basic control.

That said, are you nearing purple belt level and you can pull off the kesa gatame, by all means do so. Its just not something I would ever teach to beginners. And mind you, neither does judo, its kuzure kesa gatame that is in the kata.

I rarely see Kuzure Kesa Gatame taught to beginners...especially kids. Katame no Kata is not usually taught to kids, or even adults/teens at all...but I think you are on track as to why it is in the Katame No Kata.

I tend to teach a Yoko Shiho Gatame (usually some mune gatame varation first), because it's easier to learn and feel using your weight on uke. If combined with De Ashi Barai with uke and tori moving towards tori lapel hand, the transition from throwing is easy.

Ben Reinhardt wrote:

Dutch Budo wrote:Especially for beginners the scarf hold is like poison for their progression. Working with the underhook like in kuzure kesa or yoko shiho is more effective and learns them about basic control.

That said, are you nearing purple belt level and you can pull off the kesa gatame, by all means do so. Its just not something I would ever teach to beginners. And mind you, neither does judo, its kuzure kesa gatame that is in the kata.

I rarely see Kuzure Kesa Gatame taught to beginners...especially kids. Katame no Kata is not usually taught to kids, or even adults/teens at all...but I think you are on track as to why it is in the Katame No Kata.

I tend to teach a Yoko Shiho Gatame (usually some mune gatame varation first), because it's easier to learn and feel using your weight on uke. If combined with De Ashi Barai with uke and tori moving towards tori lapel hand, the transition from throwing is easy.

Ukigoshi/ogoshi 20yrs ago, were throws taught to beginners, gripping around back both high and low which when followed through to katame waza landed you in kuzurekesa. Now days beginners are rarely taught the hand behind back techniques it does not represent contest judo!

I still teach uki/ogoshi with the hand behind the back. Anyone interested in shiai still has to learn the basics.

medo wrote:

Ben Reinhardt wrote:

Dutch Budo wrote:Especially for beginners the scarf hold is like poison for their progression. Working with the underhook like in kuzure kesa or yoko shiho is more effective and learns them about basic control.

That said, are you nearing purple belt level and you can pull off the kesa gatame, by all means do so. Its just not something I would ever teach to beginners. And mind you, neither does judo, its kuzure kesa gatame that is in the kata.

I rarely see Kuzure Kesa Gatame taught to beginners...especially kids. Katame no Kata is not usually taught to kids, or even adults/teens at all...but I think you are on track as to why it is in the Katame No Kata.

I tend to teach a Yoko Shiho Gatame (usually some mune gatame varation first), because it's easier to learn and feel using your weight on uke. If combined with De Ashi Barai with uke and tori moving towards tori lapel hand, the transition from throwing is easy.

Ukigoshi/ogoshi 20yrs ago, were throws taught to beginners, gripping around back both high and low which when followed through to katame waza landed you in kuzurekesa. Now days beginners are rarely taught the hand behind back techniques it does not represent contest judo!

Not sure where you do Judo, but O Goshi and Uki Goshi are commonly taught to beginners in the US, especially kids.

I use De Ashi Barai moving sideways first because it's easier for tori to do and easier fall for uke and works as a sequence from doing solo to partner supported yoko ukemi waza.

Lots of ways to skin a cat, but that one works well for me.

tafftaz wrote:I still teach uki/ogoshi with the hand behind the back. Anyone interested in shiai still has to learn the basics.

Besides, there are lots of uses for behind the back gripping in shiai...anyone not familiar with them does so at their own risk.

Ben Reinhardt wrote:

tafftaz wrote:I still teach uki/ogoshi with the hand behind the back. Anyone interested in shiai still has to learn the basics.

Besides, there are lots of uses for behind the back gripping in shiai...anyone not familiar with them does so at their own risk.

Indeed

from a different point of view...

I find Kesa Gatame the 'easiest' hold to get out of generally speaking
then Tate Shiho Gatame
Then Yoko Shiho
Then Kami Shiho.... I hate Kami Shiho

of course all competitors are different so someone might have a great kesa but a crappy yoko.. if I knew that then Id rather be in their yoko..

my favorite position just to hold a pin is Kami.. my favorite pin to get a sub would yoko shiho

Ben Reinhardt wrote:I think a lot of confusion arises because Q seems to be writing about actually fighting (as in "da street, bra" type of fighting, not sport fighting). And no, I'm not making the whole false dichotomy thing.

However, knowing how to take and hold the back is a critical grappling skill, as well as how to move from there to other positions. Or put handcuffs on a guy, or whatever. regardless of the situation.

There is a lot of fancy stuff we can do in Judo, BJJ, MMA, etc in the specific positions that probably isn't necessary to know in the simpler world of survival. Is that the wisdom Q is trying to impart?

Only Q knows...

Yeah, sry, I think I'm going off somewhere too vague unintentionally. I don't really mean fistfights and actually do lean mma. I happen to agree with a lot of what Pointy was saying, as well, so I'll say this... I believe that bjj has a more complete newaza. Many more practiced techs BUT I think beyond what judo teaches, it becomes more impractical. Still decent options tho. We've seen many, many wrestlers in mma take top control (even in guard) and they have, for all practical purposes, done just fine with it. This, I believe, is the result of going 110% for the pin or osaekomi even and not wasting energy on less practical tech. I believe if they(judoka/wrestlers) had a much more practiced/scored back control game, it would come at the expense of their top control game.

To be sure, I know bjjers are killers. I don't really mean to insult bjj as we could very well just speak about newaza concepts. But, I think the same bjjer would have been just as much a killer (if not moreso) with an all judo or wrestling concept newaza game.

We did do plenty back control in judo(you know this) albeit not near bjjs amount; but we focused massively on top control and there has been little, if any, mistake there imo....outside of bjj comps(only) that is. I think there is a huge payoff in judo and wrestling strategy to keep things simple.

aha, lol, I don't think the confusion comes from fistighting or mma; just the value of back-fighting compared to osaekomi, and I don't think it's remotely close. Sounds like maybe others do.lol

Ben Reinhardt wrote:

Dutch Budo wrote:Especially for beginners the scarf hold is like poison for their progression. Working with the underhook like in kuzure kesa or yoko shiho is more effective and learns them about basic control.

That said, are you nearing purple belt level and you can pull off the kesa gatame, by all means do so. Its just not something I would ever teach to beginners. And mind you, neither does judo, its kuzure kesa gatame that is in the kata.

I rarely see Kuzure Kesa Gatame taught to beginners...especially kids. Katame no Kata is not usually taught to kids, or even adults/teens at all...but I think you are on track as to why it is in the Katame No Kata.

I tend to teach a Yoko Shiho Gatame (usually some mune gatame varation first), because it's easier to learn and feel using your weight on uke. If combined with De Ashi Barai with uke and tori moving towards tori lapel hand, the transition from throwing is easy.

Same here. I can't recall even learning kuzure in judo. It was kesa, kata, yoko and kamo shiho. In that order.

tafftaz wrote:

Ben Reinhardt wrote:

tafftaz wrote:I still teach uki/ogoshi with the hand behind the back. Anyone interested in shiai still has to learn the basics.

Besides, there are lots of uses for behind the back gripping in shiai...anyone not familiar with them does so at their own risk.

Indeed

Yep had great success with a left Ogoshi when attacked with a loose right technique, although quite often the leg would lift (harai /uchimata) infact unless some had video’d it I could not say what I had done, instinctive from training 5 days a week plus weekend courses/comps for a long, long time.

The principle of not teaching Ogoshi/Uki with a round the back/armpit to beginners is to avoid the habit of beginners reverting to what they were first taught “the ogoshi dance”.

Try teaching beginners forward throws from day one, with a standard sleeve/lapel grip concentrating on correct use of arms. You may well see improvements fast in what beginners do in randori/shia. Once they have a good base on how to use sleeve/lapel grip then teach them around the back techniques. By then there not beginners and are able to use forward/side/rear techniques off the standard sleeve/lapel.

Again if you stick to the same association/same training camp all your Judo life then you end up only know what they know.

Medo, of course I teach the whole range of hip techniques, mostly using sleeve/lapel kumi kata. The point I was making is that I also teach back grips also for the same range of waza.
I have only ever been with WJA/BJA but that has not stopped me learning and improving my judo with a vast array of excellent judoka from all countries and associations.

tafftaz wrote:Medo, of course I teach the whole range of hip techniques, mostly using sleeve/lapel kumi kata. The point I was making is that I also teach back grips also for the same range of waza.
I have only ever been with WJA/BJA but that has not stopped me learning and improving my judo with a vast array of excellent judoka from all countries and associations.

Brill can not say been to many clubs in wales just one session with Neil 10yrs ago. But we have no doubt met then.

Just trying to put over another point of view but It would seem I'm a better person in person, than I am in this written format.

medo wrote:

tafftaz wrote:Medo, of course I teach the whole range of hip techniques, mostly using sleeve/lapel kumi kata. The point I was making is that I also teach back grips also for the same range of waza.
I have only ever been with WJA/BJA but that has not stopped me learning and improving my judo with a vast array of excellent judoka from all countries and associations.

Brill can not say been to many clubs in wales just one session with Neil 10yrs ago. But we have no doubt met then.

Just trying to put over another point of view but It would seem I'm a better person in person, than I am in this written format.

I know the feeling. Forums and real life are 2 different animals. Also if you are ever in South Wales you would be more than welcome to come along to any of our sessions as my guest

medo wrote:

tafftaz wrote:

Ben Reinhardt wrote:

tafftaz wrote:I still teach uki/ogoshi with the hand behind the back. Anyone interested in shiai still has to learn the basics.

Besides, there are lots of uses for behind the back gripping in shiai...anyone not familiar with them does so at their own risk.

Indeed

Yep had great success with a left Ogoshi when attacked with a loose right technique, although quite often the leg would lift (harai /uchimata) infact unless some had video’d it I could not say what I had done, instinctive from training 5 days a week plus weekend courses/comps for a long, long time.

The principle of not teaching Ogoshi/Uki with a round the back/armpit to beginners is to avoid the habit of beginners reverting to what they were first taught “the ogoshi dance”.

Try teaching beginners forward throws from day one, with a standard sleeve/lapel grip concentrating on correct use of arms. You may well see improvements fast in what beginners do in randori/shia. Once they have a good base on how to use sleeve/lapel grip then teach them around the back techniques. By then there not beginners and are able to use forward/side/rear techniques off the standard sleeve/lapel.

Again if you stick to the same association/same training camp all your Judo life then you end up only know what they know.

You bring up a good point regarding the "O Goshi" dance. I use a similar term "Osoto Gari Dance" to describe what one often sees in matches between small children.

I think it's important to consider the concept (fact really) of "reverting to first training under stress" when selecting "techniques" to teach to beginners. Of course, that will vary depending on age, ability, and purpose in doing Judo of said beginner.

I do teach standard forward throws to beginners, however, in the interests of learning ukemi and teaching the important concepts/habits of transition, ukemi, movement, cooperation between uke and tori, etc., I do mix things up. I do teach O Goshi, as it provides good control. However, I move to both hands on throwing ASAP control and ukemi are sufficient. That plus progressive throwing drills from tai sabaki, tsurikomi drills seems to work pretty well and avoid the "O Goshi dance".

I agree it's important (critical) to get outside of own's own pond, and I've done that and continue to do so.

Ben Reinhardt wrote:

medo wrote:

tafftaz wrote:

Ben Reinhardt wrote:

tafftaz wrote:I still teach uki/ogoshi with the hand behind the back. Anyone interested in shiai still has to learn the basics.

Besides, there are lots of uses for behind the back gripping in shiai...anyone not familiar with them does so at their own risk.

Indeed

Yep had great success with a left Ogoshi when attacked with a loose right technique, although quite often the leg would lift (harai /uchimata) infact unless some had video’d it I could not say what I had done, instinctive from training 5 days a week plus weekend courses/comps for a long, long time.

The principle of not teaching Ogoshi/Uki with a round the back/armpit to beginners is to avoid the habit of beginners reverting to what they were first taught “the ogoshi dance”.

Try teaching beginners forward throws from day one, with a standard sleeve/lapel grip concentrating on correct use of arms. You may well see improvements fast in what beginners do in randori/shia. Once they have a good base on how to use sleeve/lapel grip then teach them around the back techniques. By then there not beginners and are able to use forward/side/rear techniques off the standard sleeve/lapel.

Again if you stick to the same association/same training camp all your Judo life then you end up only know what they know.

You bring up a good point regarding the "O Goshi" dance. I use a similar term "Osoto Gari Dance" to describe what one often sees in matches between small children.

I think it's important to consider the concept (fact really) of "reverting to first training under stress" when selecting "techniques" to teach to beginners. Of course, that will vary depending on age, ability, and purpose in doing Judo of said beginner.

I do teach standard forward throws to beginners, however, in the interests of learning ukemi and teaching the important concepts/habits of transition, ukemi, movement, cooperation between uke and tori, etc., I do mix things up. I do teach O Goshi, as it provides good control. However, I move to both hands on throwing ASAP control and ukemi are sufficient. That plus progressive throwing drills from tai sabaki, tsurikomi drills seems to work pretty well and avoid the "O Goshi dance".

I agree it's important (critical) to get outside of own's own pond, and I've done that and continue to do so.

Back when I was a virgin dan grade a friend of mine started a club at a junior school phoned me at work to say his car had broken down was there any chance of taking the lesson “yes no probs” how many? half a dozen he replied.
So off I went a couple of 130/140 jackets/belts in bag when I got there word had gotten around as it was the second week, 20plus kids in tracksuit bottoms and tea shirts.
He had told me that ogoshi had been covered week one so after warm up/game/yoko ukemi/kesagatami, I made the mistake of doing a beginners ukigoshi where uki steps slightly off and falls by themselves with yoko ukemi. Well the six that had been taught ogoshi the week before dumped their partners before I could adjust what was wanted.
I had tears, angry parents the lot..

Since that time I have never taught any throw around the back for beginners. I carry 20 lightweight judo jackets/belts of all sizes in a large holdall I do not have anyone on my mat without a jacket, in doing so I only teach throws from sleeve/lapel to beginners and have done for years. I do not take a beginners class without a number of more advanced pupils who have developed control in their throwing and can ukemi efficiently. I do not have beginners practice with beginners. Until they become competent in controlling the throw and ukemi…

I have problems with the suggestion that beginners have more control with an ogoshi done with the hand around the back(maybe later!) Beginners tend to dump as they do not control the arm, and without a jacket holding the wrist is a recipe for disaster..
Pleased you also get out and about...

tafftaz wrote:

medo wrote:

tafftaz wrote:Medo, of course I teach the whole range of hip techniques, mostly using sleeve/lapel kumi kata. The point I was making is that I also teach back grips also for the same range of waza.
I have only ever been with WJA/BJA but that has not stopped me learning and improving my judo with a vast array of excellent judoka from all countries and associations.

Brill can not say been to many clubs in wales just one session with Neil 10yrs ago. But we have no doubt met then.

Just trying to put over another point of view but It would seem I'm a better person in person, than I am in this written format.

I know the feeling. Forums and real life are 2 different animals. Also if you are ever in South Wales you would be more than welcome to come along to any of our sessions as my guest

Thanks for the offer I have now completely retired although I am pestered to return frequently.

I have been unlucky and have worn my back out through constant hard practice over the years (My knees been sorted though ) three diclofenac and co-codamol each day just keeps me pliable until the next morning. They want to operate with one of these

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7bw5OrGmwI

Uggggg I'm stalling risk I might end up in wheel chair, so keep taking pills until I physically/mentally can't cope.

Would not change my past passion for judo and all the happy times I have had .

medo wrote:

Ben Reinhardt wrote:

medo wrote:

tafftaz wrote:

Ben Reinhardt wrote:

tafftaz wrote:I still teach uki/ogoshi with the hand behind the back. Anyone interested in shiai still has to learn the basics.

Besides, there are lots of uses for behind the back gripping in shiai...anyone not familiar with them does so at their own risk.

Indeed

Yep had great success with a left Ogoshi when attacked with a loose right technique, although quite often the leg would lift (harai /uchimata) infact unless some had video’d it I could not say what I had done, instinctive from training 5 days a week plus weekend courses/comps for a long, long time.

The principle of not teaching Ogoshi/Uki with a round the back/armpit to beginners is to avoid the habit of beginners reverting to what they were first taught “the ogoshi dance”.

Try teaching beginners forward throws from day one, with a standard sleeve/lapel grip concentrating on correct use of arms. You may well see improvements fast in what beginners do in randori/shia. Once they have a good base on how to use sleeve/lapel grip then teach them around the back techniques. By then there not beginners and are able to use forward/side/rear techniques off the standard sleeve/lapel.

Again if you stick to the same association/same training camp all your Judo life then you end up only know what they know.

You bring up a good point regarding the "O Goshi" dance. I use a similar term "Osoto Gari Dance" to describe what one often sees in matches between small children.

I think it's important to consider the concept (fact really) of "reverting to first training under stress" when selecting "techniques" to teach to beginners. Of course, that will vary depending on age, ability, and purpose in doing Judo of said beginner.

I do teach standard forward throws to beginners, however, in the interests of learning ukemi and teaching the important concepts/habits of transition, ukemi, movement, cooperation between uke and tori, etc., I do mix things up. I do teach O Goshi, as it provides good control. However, I move to both hands on throwing ASAP control and ukemi are sufficient. That plus progressive throwing drills from tai sabaki, tsurikomi drills seems to work pretty well and avoid the "O Goshi dance".

I agree it's important (critical) to get outside of own's own pond, and I've done that and continue to do so.

Back when I was a virgin dan grade a friend of mine started a club at a junior school phoned me at work to say his car had broken down was there any chance of taking the lesson “yes no probs” how many? half a dozen he replied.
So off I went a couple of 130/140 jackets/belts in bag when I got there word had gotten around as it was the second week, 20plus kids in tracksuit bottoms and tea shirts.
He had told me that ogoshi had been covered week one so after warm up/game/yoko ukemi/kesagatami, I made the mistake of doing a beginners ukigoshi where uki steps slightly off and falls by themselves with yoko ukemi. Well the six that had been taught ogoshi the week before dumped their partners before I could adjust what was wanted.
I had tears, angry parents the lot..

Since that time I have never taught any throw around the back for beginners. I carry 20 lightweight judo jackets/belts of all sizes in a large holdall I do not have anyone on my mat without a jacket, in doing so I only teach throws from sleeve/lapel to beginners and have done for years. I do not take a beginners class without a number of more advanced pupils who have developed control in their throwing and can ukemi efficiently. I do not have beginners practice with beginners. Until they become competent in controlling the throw and ukemi…

I have problems with the suggestion that beginners have more control with an ogoshi done with the hand around the back(maybe later!) Beginners tend to dump as they do not control the arm, and without a jacket holding the wrist is a recipe for disaster..
Pleased you also get out and about...

I can see why you do what you do based on the experience you describe...my process tends to avoid those sorts of problems. I move to sleeve and lapel throwing as soon as possible...if it's beginners only class with no other experienced uke, that is tough and takes more time for sure.

Seems like the criteria for creating a positional hierarchy in Judo would be about the same: what can you score points for and what can offer up opportunities to choke or submit. What gets you points in Judo is of course different, and you can win simply by maintaining a good position for 20 seconds, so the hierarchy would be a little different. I would say:

Kesakatame, Yokoshiho, Katakatame, Kamishio: Holds you can probably hang onto and will get you the win if you get them good and set, top of the hierarchy

Yokoshiho, Tateshiho: Holds that can be a little more difficult to maintain, some chance of an escape before time, but you can also work a lot of good submissions and transition to better holds fairly easily, and they have to fight off those transition, choke, and submission attempts while the clock continues to run.

Back mount: Won't score you any points, but you can work chokes and submissions with relative safety, and might be able to transition into tateshiho, kamishio, or almost any other position. Not as vital as in BJJ because you have a very limited amount of time to make something work.

Turtle, on top: Maybe not worth the energy and risk, but if you have a good opening attacking the turtle can lead to opportunities, especially with the new rules allowing for more time on the ground.

Half-Guard, on top: Close to passing and again with more time on the ground, the possibility of getting a hold from this position is higher.

Guard: Fairly neutral position.

I think that the Seiryoku Zenyo matters most, not the specific osaekomi or position.