Taisabaki - who teaches it?

I was reading a portion of the 1941 "A Detailed Exposition of Judo" 柔道精義 and noticed that there is a very detailed section on taisabaki 体捌き.  

It starts immediately after the formalities of bowing in, before ukemi, and it is cited as fundamental to judo, something that must be mastered to learn judo.

This is incidental to my private discovery over years that many problems in judo and kata can be addressed by first starting with, literally, first steps.  Newbies tend to focus on their hands, and get their steps all wrong.  I practice with a number of senior Japanese judo sensei - 7, 8 dans - and they, too, tend to teach focusing on hands and gross body movements instead of starting with the steps.  But after watching me deconstruct techniques and kata movements starting with taisabki, and often resolving problems that their instruction often did not address, I think I've made a couple of converts.

Taisabaki is very basic to my primary martial art, Nihon den Jujutsu Nihon Jujutsu homepage , and its later cousin, Shodokan Aikido (AKA 'Tomiki aikido') http://shodokanaikido.com/en/ , and practice always starts with taisabaki drills (pretty simple in NJJ, very complex in Shodokan Aikido) and integrated hand movements, releases, strikes, kicks, etc.  In fact, the series in  "A Detailed Exposition of Judo" seems very close to a Tomiki sensei exposition and some of his prewar writings.  So, it's sort of second nature to me, but doesn't seem to be taught as a basic in most judo classes I see.  In fact, I've said for some time if I had full control of a dojo curricula, I would start with walking lessons, even before ukemi.

My question: does anyone teach taisabaki fundamentals as part of an integrated judo introductory level course?  If so, how?  Do you you materials you could share?

Thanks!

NBK

Yes, I teach it. It was a major issue in the instructions of all of my jûdô teachers.

No, no materials to share, although a large part of what I wrote in the thread on kyûshindô would be relevant. Unfortunately when I wrote that post my screen froze and it is all gone. I also addressed it at length in a paper I wrote last year on Hirano Tokio's kuzushi. Originally it was the idea that this paper would be published like that but then became part of a book project.

As you know, the grammar of jûdô is contained in kata. Taisabaki is clearly a crucial point in jû-no-kata, which in itself is greatly inspired by Kitô-ryû, the latter of which the kata are also greatly inspired by tai-sabaki, but the concept itself part of a wider framework. Tai-sabaki is also an important part in TSYR jûjutsu which is from where Kanô 'lent' some of his relevant pedagogical tools such as the happô-no-kuzushi.

We only start getting into it when testing for Shodan. Here they call it "go" and "ju"-shen tai-sabaki where one has to demonstrate using about 8-10 throws the different ways of "hard" and "soft" tai-sabaki.

I start teaching it at about 5th to 4th Kyu - where I concentrate on it, having randori sessions where tori attacks and uki can only use tai-sabaki to evade and explain how after. I then follow with a lecture on the subject.

Davaro wrote:We only start getting into it when testing for Shodan. Here they call it "go" and "ju"-shen tai-sabaki where one has to demonstrate using about 8-10 throws the different ways of "hard" and "soft" tai-sabaki.

I start teaching it at about 5th to 4th Kyu - where I concentrate on it, having randori sessions where tori attacks and uki can only use tai-sabaki to evade and explain how after. I then follow with a lecture on the subject.

I like the exercise notion.

Thanks - but 'go' and 'ju'-shen tai-sabaki? I don't understand. Is there an agreed definition?

Is that meant to be 'shin', as in (well, one of a dozen different kanji / meanings) 'spirit' or 'heart'?

Tai-Sabaki is an integral part of the "Warm Up" session at my club
and always led by our resident 4th Dan, Mr David Soucy.

Steve Leadbeater wrote:Tai-Sabaki is an integral part of the "Warm Up" session at my club
and always led by our resident 4th Dan, Mr David Soucy.

Hello Steve,
Would you care to elaborate, please. What kind of "routine" do you use ?

NBK wrote:

Davaro wrote:We only start getting into it when testing for Shodan. Here they call it "go" and "ju"-shen tai-sabaki where one has to demonstrate using about 8-10 throws the different ways of "hard" and "soft" tai-sabaki.

I start teaching it at about 5th to 4th Kyu - where I concentrate on it, having randori sessions where tori attacks and uki can only use tai-sabaki to evade and explain how after. I then follow with a lecture on the subject.

I like the exercise notion.

Thanks - but 'go' and 'ju'-shen tai-sabaki?  I don't understand.  Is there an agreed definition?

Is that meant to be 'shin', as in (well, one of a dozen different kanji / meanings) 'spirit' or 'heart'?

Well I put it in "" as I said, that's how it is defined here. I do not claim to have any knowledge whatsoever of kanji and can only comment that the way it is explained is that "go-shen" is supposed to be a block (as in hard) and "ju-shen" is supposed to be soft (as in evading, or causing the technique to miss) - I had previously on the old forum a long time ago when I was testing for shodan, asked about this and no-one could quite explain it to me. I then asked our grading commission who explained it as I have now. And yes, it is probably "Shin" and not "Shen"

I am sorry but it is quite embarrassing to explain it like this, using terms I know don't really exist in Japanese... like the "made up" terms we have heard from other syllabi all the time. Quite like saying I pulled off a "kesa-gatame-makikomi" or something like that?  

Davaro wrote:

NBK wrote:

Davaro wrote:We only start getting into it when testing for Shodan. Here they call it "go" and "ju"-shen tai-sabaki where one has to demonstrate using about 8-10 throws the different ways of "hard" and "soft" tai-sabaki.

I start teaching it at about 5th to 4th Kyu - where I concentrate on it, having randori sessions where tori attacks and uki can only use tai-sabaki to evade and explain how after. I then follow with a lecture on the subject.

I like the exercise notion.

Thanks - but 'go' and 'ju'-shen tai-sabaki?  I don't understand.  Is there an agreed definition?

Is that meant to be 'shin', as in (well, one of a dozen different kanji / meanings) 'spirit' or 'heart'?

Well I put it in "" as I said, that's how it is defined here. I do not claim to have any knowledge whatsoever of kanji and can only comment that the way it is explained is that "go-shen" is supposed to be a block (as in hard) and "ju-shen" is supposed to be soft (as in evading, or causing the technique to miss) - I had previously on the old forum a long time ago when I was testing for shodan, asked about this and no-one could quite explain it to me. I then asked our grading commission who explained it as I have now. And yes, it is probably "Shin" and not "Shen"

I am sorry but it is quite embarrassing to explain it like this, using terms I know don't really exist in Japanese... like the "made up" terms we have heard from other syllabi all the time. Quite like saying I pulled off a "kesa-gatame-makikomi" or something like that?  

Don't be embarrassed - at best you know what you're taught. I was just curious as to what they meant. I've never heard of 'hard' and 'soft' taisabaki in judo. Interesting notion but seems novel in Japanese.

Jihef wrote:

Steve Leadbeater wrote:Tai-Sabaki is an integral part of the "Warm Up" session at my club
and always led by our resident 4th Dan, Mr David Soucy.

Hello Steve,
Would you care to elaborate, please. What kind of "routine" do you use ?

Mr Soucy leads the class in Tsugi Ashi, Suri Ashi, Okuri Ashi, Hiraki Ashi and Ayumi Ashi steps
which are used to improve posture, balance, speed and technique, and to teach students to
stay off their heels and rather, use the balls of their feet.
These are done moving Forward, Backward, Sideways (to Left and Right) and at a diagonal
across the mats, included in this part of the program are 180 and 360 degree turns, just as
would be performed during contest.

Steve Leadbeater wrote:Mr Soucy leads the class in Tsugi Ashi, Suri Ashi, Okuri Ashi, Hiraki Ashi and Ayumi Ashi steps
which are used to improve posture, balance, speed and technique, and to teach students to
stay off their heels and rather, use the balls of their feet.
These are done moving Forward, Backward, Sideways (to Left and Right) and at a diagonal
across the mats, included in this part of the program are 180 and 360 degree turns, just as
would be performed during contest.

That essentially captures the sequences in the book I mentioned.

There is a "Tai-Sabaki" exercise in Kodokan Joshi Goshin-Ho with 8 movements: Tai-no-Ido (body movement), Tsugiashi (foot following), Migi/Hidari-Sabaki (right/left movement), Migi/Hidari Mae Sabaki (right/left forward movement), Migi/Hidari-Harai (right/left sweep), Migi/Hidari-Maware (right/left turn about), Mae/Migi/Hidari -Shizume (Front/right/left sinking down) and Hiza-Ate (knee strike). We practice it as warm up for kata classes. When I was younger I did not understand the importance of the Tai-Sabaki exercise or Tandoku-renshu. Now that I'm older it makes sense when you study kata. It can be found in Ms. Fukuda's book "Born for the Mat." Now that I'm older kata makes sense to study in relation to randori and shiai (thanks to Mrs. Shepherd's teaching).

JudoDad8 wrote:(thanks to Mrs. Shepherd's teaching).

The last time I posted "crickets" the post was pulled.  So maybe "go" will work where "ju" did not.

Anyone care to argue with JudoDad?  Oh c'mon, I can hear you out there telepathically. It's giving me a headache.

I teach it as an integral part of each step for beginners. For example, I work with new students the first day and have a senior mudansha take the others to practice uchikomi. I show the new guys how to walk, how to move backwards, forwards, side-to-side, and in circles. There are usually a lot of giggles as they shuffle around with their feet swishing on the tatami. They always feel silly at first. Then I pair them up, show them a standard grip and have them practice moving with a partner. They always say it looks like dancing at first, which brings more giggles as they shuffle around.

Next, usually in that same session, I'll introduce happo-no-kuzushi. Once they get the idea that throwing requires you to get your uke off-balance, I have them go back to moving around with their partner, trying to move and off-balance at the same time. Of course, it will take them weeks to begin to get the feel of this, but they become conscious of it right away.

Whenever I teach nage-waza, I try to show students the "natural" kuzushi that results from tai sabaki. For example, sasae tsurikomi ashi I'll have uke grip tori, but will tell tori to keep his hands at his sides. I'll teach them the foot movement necessary for the throw and they see, when you make that pivot step to the side, how uke will tilt off-balance, even without tori pulling him. As long as he maintains a grip on tori, uke will lose balance if tori steps into the right position. All you have to add to that is a little pull with the hands once you have your grip to make it exponentially more effective and block the foot. The throw becomes almost magical when they realize that.

A similar thing happens with o goshi, which is usually the first forward throw I teach them. I start with foot placement. I have uke stand still with his feet about shoulder width apart and show tori where his feet should be when he's throwing. I have them practice making the turn over and over, with the feet in proper position, heels off the floor, etc. Then I move on to stepping in while spiraling down and bending the knees. Once they have that part somewhat comfortable, we practice with the hands involved. When they get the feet right, hip placement becomes more natural. Again, even without tori holding on during the first part of the practice, when he makes the turn and lowers his hara, uke's balance gets broken if he doesn't release his grip.

I'm sure that there is much more to teaching tai sabaki. I just teach it the way my sensei did. It's one of those fundamental things that I can't imagine leaving out.

NBK wrote:I was reading a portion of the 1941 "A Detailed Exposition of Judo" 柔道精義 and noticed that there is a very detailed section on taisabaki 体捌き.  

It starts immediately after the formalities of bowing in, before ukemi, and it is cited as fundamental to judo, something that must be mastered to learn judo.

This is incidental to my private discovery over years that many problems in judo and kata can be addressed by first starting with, literally, first steps.  Newbies tend to focus on their hands, and get their steps all wrong.  I practice with a number of senior Japanese judo sensei - 7, 8 dans - and they, too, tend to teach focusing on hands and gross body movements instead of starting with the steps.  But after watching me deconstruct techniques and kata movements starting with taisabki, and often resolving problems that their instruction often did not address, I think I've made a couple of converts.

Taisabaki is very basic to my primary martial art, Nihon den Jujutsu Nihon Jujutsu homepage , and its later cousin, Shodokan Aikido (AKA 'Tomiki aikido') http://shodokanaikido.com/en/ , and practice always starts with taisabaki drills (pretty simple in NJJ, very complex in Shodokan Aikido) and integrated hand movements, releases, strikes, kicks, etc.  In fact, the series in  "A Detailed Exposition of Judo" seems very close to a Tomiki sensei exposition and some of his prewar writings.  So, it's sort of second nature to me, but doesn't seem to be taught as a basic in most judo classes I see.  In fact, I've said for some time if I had full control of a dojo curricula, I would start with walking lessons, even before ukemi.

My question: does anyone teach taisabaki fundamentals as part of an integrated judo introductory level course?  If so, how?  Do you you materials you could share?

Thanks!

NBK

I have been teaching basic tai sabaki for many years. I made observations similar to yours and reached similar conclusions (to what you posted here, anyway).

I don't have any material though. I picked up some basic terms from Dr. David Matsumoto's book "Introduction to Kodokan Judo: History and Philosophy" many years ago, and found references in other sources I know but cannot recall titles.

Essentially I would tried to build the students judo from the ground up instead of from the top down, as I observed a lot of very poor general movement habits in many, many judoka over the years. Lots of upper body with no "base"...

I found this worked pretty well, and modified it over the years, linking the various tai sabaki to different throws, and had various sequences of solo and partner drills for people to do.

GregW wrote:I teach it as an integral part of each step for beginners.  For example, I work with new students the first day and have a senior mudansha take the others to practice uchikomi.  I show the new guys how to walk, how to move backwards, forwards, side-to-side, and in circles.  There are usually a lot of giggles as they shuffle around with their feet swishing on the tatami.  They always feel silly at first.  Then I pair them up, show them a standard grip and have them practice moving with a partner.  They always say it looks like dancing at first, which brings more giggles as they shuffle around.

Next, usually in that same session, I'll introduce happo-no-kuzushi.  Once they get the idea that throwing requires you to get your uke off-balance, I have them go back to moving around with their partner, trying to move and off-balance at the same time.  Of course, it will take them weeks to begin to get the feel of this, but they become conscious of it right away.

Whenever I teach nage-waza, I try to show students the "natural" kuzushi that results from tai sabaki.  For example, sasae tsurikomi ashi  I'll have uke grip tori, but will tell tori to keep his hands at his sides.  I'll teach them the foot movement necessary for the throw and they see, when you make that pivot step to the side, how uke will tilt off-balance, even without tori pulling him.  As long as he maintains a grip on tori, uke will lose balance if tori steps into the right position.  All you have to add to that is a little pull with the hands once you have your grip to make it exponentially more effective and block the foot.  The throw becomes almost magical when they realize that.  

A similar thing happens with o goshi, which is usually the first forward throw I teach them.  I start with foot placement.  I have uke stand still with his feet about shoulder width apart and show tori where his feet should be when he's throwing.  I have them practice making the turn over and over, with the feet in proper position, heels off the floor, etc.  Then I move on to stepping in while spiraling down and bending the knees.  Once they have that part somewhat comfortable, we practice with the hands involved.  When they get the feet right, hip placement becomes more natural.  Again, even without tori holding on during the first part of the practice, when he makes the turn and lowers his hara, uke's balance gets broken if he doesn't release his grip.  

I'm sure that there is much more to teaching tai sabaki.  I just teach it the way my sensei did.  It's one of those fundamental things that I can't imagine leaving out.

This is quite similar in principle and practice to what I've done over the years, especially the Sasae Tsurikomi Ashi example.

That and an emphasis on nagekomi over uchikomi (particularly static uchikomi) seemed to work pretty well.

BillC wrote:

JudoDad8 wrote:(thanks to Mrs. Shepherd's teaching).

The last time I posted "crickets" the post was pulled.  So maybe "go" will work where "ju" did not.

Anyone care to argue with JudoDad?  Oh c'mon, I can hear you out there telepathically.  It's giving me a headache.

Does she teach taisabaki?

NBK wrote:Does she teach taisabaki?

Indeed.

Ju no kata was designed by Kano shihan to teach the basics of combative reactions - coordinated blocks, grasps, and taisabaki to counter a variety of attacks. I think one of the interesting points is that the motions can be very small yet effective - sometimes I am reminded of advanced karate kata where tori's defensive movements seem insufficient but uke always misses by a tiny bit.

So if she teaches ju no kata, surely she teaches taisabaki - anyplace else?

NBK wrote:Ju no kata was designed by Kano shihan to teach the basics of combative reactions - coordinated blocks, grasps, and taisabaki to counter a variety of attacks.   I think one of the interesting points is that the motions can be very small yet effective - sometimes I am reminded of advanced karate kata where tori's defensive movements seem insufficient but uke always misses by a tiny bit.

So if she teaches ju no kata, surely she teaches taisabaki - anyplace else?

Well, she's usually only here one or maybe two weekends a year, so I can't recall a moment where she ever said "now we are going to practice taisabaki."  But as you note it's built into the kata and into the goshinjutsu ... so yeah Mr. NBK ... everyone and not just me got a huge dose of "move arms and legs together" this past event.

Note: Before the comments start, posted or unposted, this is an exercise incorporating taisabaki practice, not muneoshi.


Edit:  Our more "chronologically advanced" members often do mention the term "taisabaki" and are probably disappointed with the lack of familiarity.  That said, my comment is that connecting taisabaki as an important element and not a "step here, step there" exercise unconnected to everything else is probably not as useful as it could be.  Teaching how to teach beyond rote is the piece that probably failed before the wheel came off entirely.

NBK wrote:

Steve Leadbeater wrote:Mr Soucy leads the class in Tsugi Ashi, Suri Ashi, Okuri Ashi, Hiraki Ashi and Ayumi Ashi steps
which are used to improve posture, balance, speed and technique, and to teach students to
stay off their heels and rather, use the balls of their feet.
These are done moving Forward, Backward, Sideways (to Left and Right) and at a diagonal
across the mats, included in this part of the program are 180 and 360 degree turns, just as
would be performed during contest.

That essentially captures the sequences in the book I mentioned.  

What is "Hiraki Ashi".

Ben Reinhardt wrote:What is "Hiraki Ashi".

It is one of the ashi-sabaki as explained earlier. It involves a diagonal movement. Hiraku means something like: to open. Correct me if I am wrong but I believe this sabaki is used during a traditional sasae-tsurikomi-ashi or hiza-guruma.

Interesting topic. I was thinking last night (first class for a new batch of beginners) whether to specifically lay the seeds for happo-no-kuzushi or simply set the scene and let them derive the obvious. I ended up going with the latter (teaching ogoshi & kosoto gari). I think though that I would like to make the taisabaki & kuzushi thing more obvious at some point (say, in a month or three when we've gone thru the first set of the gokyo). IOW, give them the 'problem', let them work out solutions, then let's discuss how/why it works like that.

I think the issue with HNK is that it in part assumes rigid body mechanics (like tipping a cube over a corner). This type of thing is pretty easy to counter (imagine that same cube standing on a furniture cart, so that when you try to tip it, the wheels would roll back and the whole thing slides out of the way), so I think it might be of limited use ultimately.

Actually, that might make for an interesting set of explorations / drills. HNK, followed by counters to HNK. Not for a while though!

Come to think of it, the biggest issue I'm having is trying to distill years of experience and knowledge into something that's easy to pick up for someone brand new, without trying to do an instant brain dump. It seems to be a delicate balance between 'here's the situation and here are the constraints...I'm not going to explicitly tell you what to do; work it out' and 'pay attention and do exactly as I say'.

In terms of taisabaki, at this point I'm approaching it covertly, using mirroring. For example, teach kouchigari in one lesson, then de ashi barai the next, using similar entry mechanics to highlight the 'open door, let them go past you, help them on the way out' idea.

I might like to introduce judo taiso at some point, too, as a warmup / take home and practice exercise. I realize that's a Tomiki aikido exercise but I think it's one of the better ways of (overtly) introducing some of this stuff.

Creamy creamy baileys wrote:Interesting topic. I was thinking last night (first class for a new batch of beginners) whether to specifically lay the seeds for happo-no-kuzushi or simply set the scene and let them derive the obvious. I ended up going with the latter (teaching ogoshi & kosoto gari). I think though that I would like to make the taisabaki & kuzushi thing more obvious at some point (say, in a month or three when we've gone thru the first set of the gokyo). IOW, give them the 'problem', let them work out solutions, then let's discuss how/why it works like that.

I think the issue with HNK is that it in part assumes rigid body mechanics (like tipping a cube over a corner). This type of thing is pretty easy to counter (imagine that same cube standing on a furniture cart, so that when you try to tip it, the wheels would roll back and the whole thing slides out of the way), so I think it might be of limited use ultimately.

Actually, that might make for an interesting set of explorations / drills. HNK, followed by counters to HNK. Not for a while though!

Come to think of it, the biggest issue I'm having is trying to distill years of experience and knowledge into something that's easy to pick up for someone brand new, without trying to do an instant brain dump. It seems to be a delicate balance between 'here's the situation and here are the constraints...I'm not going to explicitly tell you what to do; work it out' and 'pay attention and do exactly as I say'.

In terms of taisabaki, at this point I'm approaching it covertly, using mirroring. For example, teach kouchigari in one lesson, then de ashi barai the next, using similar entry mechanics to highlight the 'open door, let them go past you, help them on the way out' idea.

I might like to introduce judo taiso at some point, too, as a warmup / take home and practice exercise. I realize that's a Tomiki aikido exercise but I think it's one of the better ways of (overtly) introducing some of this stuff.

Link simple tai sabaki to the throw you will be teaching, via solo practice of the tai sabaki, then pairs doing tai sabaki together (say without grips, then with sleeve grip, then with lapel grip, then with both grips).

For example, you want to teach O Goshi, or work on a specific deficiency you have observed.
Prep with brief demo of what you will be doing, with goal (O Goshi)
1.) Start with simple solo drill of back turning tai sabaki, static, no hand action (I usually have them start with hands at side). Repeat, correct as needed/appropriate.
2.) Same as above, but introduce lowering weight as turning (aka bending knees/spiralling down).
3.) Hands up, same thing
4.) I usually move to doing this while moving backwards, then introduce partner training of basic movement
5.) You can switch to partner training with hand dropping to waist for O Goshi
You see where I'm going with this by now, I'm sure.

Other intermediate steps are or may be necessary (ukemi, how to control uke, etc, before any throwing happens






4.) Switch to partner t

Those taiso video are for Tomiki Ryu Aikido, not judo. Not saying they would not have value for judoka...

Please correct me if I'm wrong !

Ryvai wrote:

Ben Reinhardt wrote:What is "Hiraki Ashi".

It is one of the ashi-sabaki as explained earlier. It involves a diagonal movement. Hiraku means something like: to open. Correct me if I am wrong but I believe this sabaki is used during a traditional sasae-tsurikomi-ashi or hiza-guruma.

Kendo term then...sure, basically same for the two throws you mention.