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Ben Reinhardt
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    samsmith2424


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    Post by samsmith2424 Fri Nov 15, 2013 7:24 am

    I would like to ask at what age or stage in judo do people think is good to learn a technique such as one sided grip sumi gaeshi.

    Would you for example teach it to children or would it be better for them not to use such a grip when they are young and developing their throws from a more traditional grip?

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    Rightintheface


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    Post by Rightintheface Fri Nov 15, 2013 9:02 am

    Hi-
    I need to start with a bug disclaimer here. I am a long-ago kyu grade now in bjj, so from a judo standpoint, feel free to discount my opinion.
    One of my other hats, however, is that of a pediatric occupational therapist. In that frame of mind, my only opinion is that cementing a strong biomechanical foundation with kids is essential whatever task you're teaching. My inclination would be to teach many throws that have similar motions with only slight variations. That is, I would want the setup, kuzushi, fitting in, etc. to be as similar as possible.
    Now, what a dan grade would know that I don't is just exactly how far removed from that foundational base of movement a one handed sumi gaeshi is. I won't pretend to know that and thus will defer a direct answer to your question.
    In bjj I've heard the term "junk move" several times. We use it to refer to either a very simple technique that is so basic and silly it shouldn't work (like separating the elbows to block a gi choke) or alternately something crazy complex that comes from a weird angle. Something you would never expect someone to do (berimbolo). In my own learning, I would be inclined to use a 1-hand sumi gaeshi in the same way. As a junk move, something in my repertoire but not a regular part of my attacking scheme.
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    Post by still learning Fri Nov 15, 2013 10:17 am

    Learn the basics first and learn them well, traditional grips and traditional techniques. Only when such fundamentals have been grasped would I teach variations such as you describe. Too often short cuts are taken where techniques and strategies are taught for quick results in competitions which frequently inhibit the overall development of young judoka. This applies to many techniques, which is why we don't teach drop seoinage or makikomi in children's classes.
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    Post by hedgehogey Fri Nov 15, 2013 10:00 pm

    And how often do you see children throwing each other with traditional seoinage? Hell, how often do you see adults doing it?

    (I don't support teaching children drop seoinage either, but that's because of the future health issues it can lead to, not its adherence to subjective judo fundementals)
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    Post by judo66 Sat Nov 16, 2013 1:45 am

    hedgehogey wrote:And how often do you see children throwing each other with traditional seoinage? Hell, how often do you see adults doing it?

    (I don't support teaching children drop seoinage either, but that's because of the future health issues it can lead to, not its adherence to subjective judo fundementals)
    I see it very often for children since i teach them (at least until they are twelve) basic techniques you can find in the two first kyo. There are very useful techniques in those kyo: not only ippon seoi nage but o soto gari, de ashi barai, o uchi gari, ko uchi gari, o goshi, harai goshi, uchi mata, tai otoshi etc. some of the techniques from those kyo are the foundation for other techniques. It is also in those kyo that you will work with the most successful techniques in randori and shiaï.

    I'm not saying that something like yoko sumi gaeshi is not efficient but...it is more specialized. You have to be good at ne waza to use sutemi so you can use them as a trap if they don't work. For kids it's much better to learn basic stuff first.

    Just my 2 cts.
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    Post by Cichorei Kano Sat Nov 16, 2013 3:54 am

    I would echo some of the points that judo66 raises.

    It's getting old and we are starting to sound like grumpy old men who are constantly glorifying the past, but really the situation isn't good when it comes to fundamental skills. Even during world championships we often see that the elite lacks fundamental skills, which they compensate with extraordinary athletic and physical abilities. The reason is obvious when you visit clubs and national team workout. The teaching staff and many instructors increasingly lack those skills too, no longer are aware of their importance, and hence do not and cannot correct them in their students either.

    Developing proper kuzushi is a long process. It took me 17 years to master it, and I think that is very quick, for which I have to thank some truly outstanding gifted teachers. Children, consequently, don't and can't master those skills. At best they succeed in instinctive debana and domination in motor skills when compared to other children. Sutemi become a crutch. Why ? A crucial skill is to bring the center of mass under that of the opponent. This is essential to succeed a throw and requires coordination of arms and body and stability and debana. Because this is so difficult, children and most adults who lack proper skills will overcompensate the breaking of balance by applying force with their arms. This is a difficult and oftentimes unsatisfactory process, which is the reason that so many of the techniques they apply, will fail. In the case of sutemi these requirements are identical, but ... the fact that one goes in an extremely low position implies that there is easy appearance of getting that center of mass below that of the opponent. All judoka instinctively feel this which is why it is so tempting for people who can't properly do sutemi to do them so often nevertheless. These action regularly fail because even though the center of mass is lowered, doing so lack coordination and is not well implemented in the whole chain of sequential motor action. The result usually is a completely botched technique that resembles pulling someone to the ground rather than a representation of maximal efficiency at minimal effort. The complexity of sutemi is taught (which doesn't mean it is also mastered) only in the most advanced kata of judo.

    For that reason, sutemi ought to be discouraged in children and in anyone who has not achieve sufficient fundamental skills. In terms of "one-sided grip". People who have made it their area of expertise to study the motor development of children in judo as well as consider health consequences typically emphasize the use of standard grip even if it is just to avoid injuries in their partners who are not yet skilled to make ukemi from nonstandard grips.

    I think that for the teacher it is important to communicate clearly the objectives of judo as far as children can understand these. The objectives of judo are not at all to get your opponent on the ground no matter at what cost, certainly not in children, certainly not in recreational judo.
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    Post by hedgehogey Sat Nov 16, 2013 9:19 am

    judo66 wrote:
    I see it very often for children since i teach them (at least until they are twelve) basic techniques you can find in the two first kyo. There are very useful techniques in those kyo: not only ippon seoi nage but o soto gari, de ashi barai, o uchi gari, ko uchi gari, o goshi, harai goshi, uchi mata, tai otoshi etc. some of the techniques from those kyo are the foundation for other techniques. It is also in those kyo that you will work with the most successful techniques in randori and shiaï.


    Only in the most technical sense (compare the kyo osoto and seoinage with the ones that you actually see in competition).

    One thing that children teach me is that you can't approach them as a mass and teach them a standardized curriculum. Their little personalities and interests assert themselves no matter how much you try to stuff them all into the same box. So why teach them all the same way? Children should be let loose to explore judo. Otherwise they're not gonna have much fun and you're going to get a class full of clones.


    I'm not saying that something like yoko sumi gaeshi is not efficient but...it is more  specialized. You have to be good at ne waza to use sutemi so you can use them as a trap if they don't work. For kids it's much better to learn basic stuff first.
    Then teach them to be good at ne waza. A strong ne waza foundation takes as long to lay down as a tachi waza one, so you might as well start now.
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    Post by Ricebale Sat Nov 16, 2013 10:30 am

    Hey,

    Here is a short impromptu vid (with tech errors on review) I made and the end of our Sambo lesson. I had some guys who were attempting sumi gaeshi from the front on with mixed success so I showed them some side on and inverted version which are seen a lot in Sambo comps, mostly due to attempts against legs



    We had the jackets off here for a reason, I mostly get guys to try both with the theory that for all purposes you use the jacket to assist the throw of the person, the person being thrown with mechanical efficiency isthe whole point imo. I'm trying to impress angles of entry.

    See my method for Hane Goshi as an example of non regular entry.



    You'll see guys in the background using jackets to wrestle.

    Back to topic. For kids I don't see much utility doing these throws as they usuall don't grasp the basics of weight displacement (kuzushi) and overly rely on sitting down rather than making an entry under the gravity base of the opponent.

    Cheers
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    Post by Rightintheface Sat Nov 16, 2013 12:12 pm

    CK, I have a sneaking suspicion I used to be like hedgehog. Probably why I ruffled feathers so often in the old forum. Apologies, very very late.
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    Post by Cichorei Kano Sat Nov 16, 2013 12:52 pm

    Rightintheface wrote:CK, I have a sneaking suspicion I used to be like hedgehog. Probably why I ruffled feathers so often in the old forum. Apologies, very very late.
    Hey, RITF, as far as I can recall I never had any noteworthy collisions with you and you always were civil to me even if we there was something we disagreed about. So, certainly to me, no apologies are necessary. Besides, I would hope that any teacher prefers someone who is like you passionate, driven, cares, has the guts to speak up, than someone who never disagrees. Learning experiences go both sides. I also think that "way back" these Internet discussion forums were very much a new thing and conversations regularly turned into verbal randori. This is not just individuals to blame but the simple novelty of the experience. Today, I think we simply know the medium better. We know sometimes unintended consequences, we may be more aware that holding a conversation looks just like an E-mail, but isn't as it is read maybe by dozens if notes hundreds of thousands of people, some who are not even registered and lurk. I think there is less formation of factions and tribalism, although on the other side, maybe less passion too. But the latter, I think, more has to do with the fact that forums have now fulfilled that gap and build that bridge to knowledge and information that previously was not easily accessible for the average Joe. Many forums today are inactive, forums in other languages in other countries. This one remains one of the most active despite the numbers of people logged on are not remotely comparable to some numbers we had years ago.

    In any case, as you can see, people were very pleased to see you back after so long, and I suspect those include those whose feathers you might have ruffed. Even though most of us have never met you, many of us went through genuine excited meant as you were awaiting your first kid, and shared stories. If today we have learnt something than it is that we are all humans with our strengths and flaws but in time we we may learn to deal to coordinate these better in our interactions so that human interactions is remembered as joyful and valuable.
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    Post by judo66 Sat Nov 16, 2013 1:37 pm

    hedgehogey wrote:
    judo66 wrote:
    I see it very often for children since i teach them (at least until they are twelve) basic techniques you can find in the two first kyo. There are very useful techniques in those kyo: not only ippon seoi nage but o soto gari, de ashi barai, o uchi gari, ko uchi gari, o goshi, harai goshi, uchi mata, tai otoshi etc. some of the techniques from those kyo are the foundation for other techniques. It is also in those kyo that you will work with the most successful techniques in randori and shiaï.
    Only in the most technical sense (compare the kyo osoto and seoinage with the ones that you actually  see in competition).

    One thing that children teach me is that you can't approach them as a mass and teach them a standardized curriculum. Their little personalities and interests assert themselves no matter how much you try to stuff them all into the same box. So why teach them all the same way? Children should be let loose to explore judo. Otherwise they're not gonna have much fun and you're going to get a class full of clones.


    I'm not saying that something like yoko sumi gaeshi is not efficient but...it is more  specialized. You have to be good at ne waza to use sutemi so you can use them as a trap if they don't work. For kids it's much better to learn basic stuff first.
    Then teach them to be good at ne waza. A strong ne waza foundation takes as long to lay down as a tachi waza one, so you might as well start now.

    Where did i write that I teach a standardized curriculum? For exemple I don't teach uki goshi to 6 or 7 year old. I would be losing my time and theirs. It all depends of the age of the pupils. I don't know any experiences sensei who don't adapt the go kyo. I don't know any experienced sensei who is going to teach yoko tomoe nage if their pupils are not even able to (reasonnably master more basic techniques)when the pupil is 6 you teach them osae waza and things related to that. When you teach to someone who is 16...well it's another ball game. to be efficient on your feet require a lot of time above all if you want your pupil to come up with a fluid technique. Ne waza has to be linked to nage waza.

    In reading you post i believe that you have a very limited experience. Let them loose to explore judo? yes sometimes but most of the time they want to make sure they are improving and for that they need guidance.
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    Post by medo Sun Nov 17, 2013 8:17 am

    samsmith2424 wrote:I would like to ask at what age or stage in judo do people think is good to learn a technique such as one sided grip sumi gaeshi.

    Would you for example teach it to children or would it be better for them not to use such a grip when they are young and developing their throws from a more traditional grip?

    Some years ago I had a tall 14year old come to our Junior club after a few weeks in the junior group I suggested he stayed on for the senior session as he was a good deal taller and heavier than the biggest junior there.
    The senior session consisted of blues/browns/dan grades and he joined in with the seniors helping him and using him as a rest bite between randori.
    On one session sumigaeshi was covered with all variations that I knew, including wrong hand side entry against the bent over opponent, well he took to this like a duck to water, he graded quickly within the club to orange belt. He then attended an area grading, he was put in a pool of green belts and throw every one with sumigaeshi and held them. So he came away happy as a green belt with only four/five months training.
    The next grading we went to was a national grading a few months on, because of his size he was put in a large mixed pool of blues/browns although he was competent in a number of throws and combinations he reverted to Sumigaeshi and lost every fight to the more experienced grades, a few months on and he left. He had great potential and I regret introducing him to this technique and he would never have been introduce so early if I did not suggest he attend the senior session. Because under pressure that’s what he kept reverting back to.


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    Post by samsmith2424 Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:27 am

    Maybe you were wrong to put him in the grading so soon.

    Most of us when under pressure go back to what we feel most confident in.

    Before my son came to Switzerland i had taught him a lot of ne waza. He was fairly good at it for a 16 year old and he caught out a number of dan grades when he came here with it.

    However, his first competition was a club competition. Instead of throwing people as I had taught him. He would flop to the floor and do ne waza. I was very disappointed.

    Change did come eventually, but only after a lot of work.

    I wouldn't like to put someone in for a grading if a positive result was not almost certain.
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    Post by medo Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:51 am

    samsmith2424 wrote:Maybe you were wrong to put him in the grading so soon.

    Most of us when under pressure go back to what we feel most confident in.

    Before my son came to Switzerland i had taught him a lot of ne waza. He was fairly good at it for a 16 year old and he caught out a number of dan grades when he came here with it.

    However, his first competition was a club competition. Instead of throwing people as I had taught him. He would flop to the floor and do ne waza. I was very disappointed.

    Change did come eventually, but only after a lot of work.

    I wouldn't like to put someone in for a grading if a positive result was not almost certain.
    Hi Sam,

    Just trying to give my experiences which are either mistakes or good and maybe they will help someone, maybe not.

    When running a club and entering students into gradings/competitions its tough not to let a student have a go ever if instructor thought they would not do so well. At the national grading all the greens were a lot smaller and lighter, hence being put into the blue/brown pool another day and there may have been a some greens his size and he may have excelled, you don't know, his theory was ok for the grade he was going for.
    Mistake maybe! I took a mini bus full of Juniors and seniors to this grading so why not give him a chance I have taken students to gradings who I think will get there grade but due to size/strength and competing against national champions/squad members they failed. Someones always going to have a bad day or everyone would get there grade they where aiming for.

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    Post by samsmith2424 Mon Nov 18, 2013 4:35 am

    It is hard now to relate to competitive grading as here it is technical grading only for the Kyu grades. Thanks for writing your experience.
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    Post by medo Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:02 am

    samsmith2424 wrote:It is hard now to relate to competitive grading as here it is technical grading only for the Kyu grades. Thanks for writing your experience.
    Yes it seems common these days not to contest at grades of kyu level, the premise seems to be, not loose students before they start actively testing their learn't technical skill against other students of the same grade.

    Juries out if this improves judo all depends on the knowledge and technical ability of the person teaching and judging the techniques in there syllabus.

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    Post by samsmith2424 Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:25 am

    Here in Switzerland it seems to work in the competitive clubs, but in the club I am a member, only  demonstration throws are tested and kumi kata, various ways of breaking the balance are not. Also there is no randori neither in the above 14 years above group. I am trying to bring in changes (in the club) but it is hard.
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    Post by Ben Reinhardt Sat Nov 23, 2013 11:34 am

    samsmith2424 wrote:I would like to ask at what age or stage in judo do people think is good to learn a technique such as one sided grip sumi gaeshi.

    Would you for example teach it to children or would it be better for them not to use such a grip when they are young and developing their throws from a more traditional grip?

    I don't teach children sutemi waza...let alone one sided Sumi Gaeshi. You might want to define the age and skill level you are specifically referring to.

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    Post by Ben Reinhardt Sat Nov 23, 2013 11:48 am

    hedgehogey wrote:And how often do you see children throwing each other with traditional seoinage? Hell, how often do you see adults doing it?

    (I don't support teaching children drop seoinage either, but that's because of the future health issues it can lead to, not its adherence to subjective judo fundementals)
    You seem to be making a fundamental error.. It's common, though, so don't feel too special.

    The error is to equate importance of learning a particular technique with how often a given version of it is seen (in randori or competition).

    The basic techniques (like the standing seoi nage) focus on the basic principles involved in the throw. They are "stripped down" to the essentials so students can focus on what is important rather than on variations that are seen to be effective in randori/competition.

    I think that what is subjective is HOW the fundamentals of Judo are taught, more so than what the fundamentals are. A lot of judo teaching to kids (as you point out below) is pretty restrictive and boring. Hell, to adults for that matter, and (subjectively?) too focused on getting competition results (this for beginners and kids).

    There is a lot of bad pedagogy out there in Judo. Teaching fundamentals of anything doesn't have to be boring, it can be fun. Of course in kids, a lot of the fundamentals are just basic physical coordination and skills appropriate to their age and stage of development.

    "Drop Seoinage" (Seoi Otoshi) does teach and illustrate some important principles. However, it isn't the best way to do so especially for kids, for both health reasons as you rightfully point out, but also because of the tendency of kids to overly rely on it at the expense of learning proper foot/body placement for standing throws. This ties into coordination issues related to age and stage of physical development as well.

    I like how you are thinking, HH. Avoid being dogmatic and keep an open mind (right, I need to suggest that to you, LOL).



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    Post by Ben Reinhardt Sat Nov 23, 2013 11:58 am

    [quote="hedgehogey"]
    judo66 wrote:
    I see it very often for children since i teach them (at least until they are twelve) basic techniques you can find in the two first kyo. There are very useful techniques in those kyo: not only ippon seoi nage but o soto gari, de ashi barai, o uchi gari, ko uchi gari, o goshi, harai goshi, uchi mata, tai otoshi etc. some of the techniques from those kyo are the foundation for other techniques. It is also in those kyo that you will work with the most successful techniques in randori and shiaï.
    hedgehogey wrote:Only in the most technical sense (compare the kyo osoto and seoinage with the ones that you actually  see in competition).
    The "most technical sense" is very important though. The grasping of the principle, the "feel" of the technique comes from learning the fundamental forms, which allow a student to then apply those to the variations of the basic throw.

    I'm not making this up, it's my direct and personal experience with my own judo, and in teaching judo for many years. And no, I'm not engaging in "magister dixit" so don't go there. I'm sharing my real life experience with you.

    hedgehogey wrote:One thing that children teach me is that you can't approach them as a mass and teach them a standardized curriculum. Their little personalities and interests assert themselves no matter how much you try to stuff them all into the same box. So why teach them all the same way? Children should be let loose to explore judo. Otherwise they're not gonna have much fun and you're going to get a class full of clones.
    I'm not sure anyone advocated stuffing kids all into the same box. Some standardization is necessary, and kids will develop habits that are not conducive to later development of judo skill. Again, that's my direct experience. Hell, I developed some bad habits over the years and my teachers were very stict about fundamentals.

    hedgehogey wrote:hen teach them to be good at ne waza. A strong ne waza foundation takes as long to lay down as a tachi waza one, so you might as well start now.
    I totally agree with that for sure !

    What is most difficult and where many many fall short is in coming up with ways to instill fundamentals to kids (or anyone) in a non-boring way that does not stifle individual creativity and talent. I might be classified as mediocre at it on a good day, LOL !

    The Tai Sabaki thread by NBK is interesting...
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    Post by Ben Reinhardt Tue Nov 26, 2013 8:50 am

    medo wrote:
    samsmith2424 wrote:I would like to ask at what age or stage in judo do people think is good to learn a technique such as one sided grip sumi gaeshi.

    Would you for example teach it to children or would it be better for them not to use such a grip when they are young and developing their throws from a more traditional grip?

    Some years ago I had a tall 14year old come to our Junior club after a few weeks in the junior group I suggested he stayed on for the senior session as he was a good deal taller and heavier than the biggest junior there.
    The senior session consisted of blues/browns/dan grades and he joined in with the seniors helping him and using him as a rest bite between randori.
    On one session sumigaeshi was covered with all variations that I knew, including wrong hand side entry against the bent over opponent, well he took to this like a duck to water, he graded quickly within the club to orange belt. He then attended an area grading, he was put in a pool of green belts and throw every one with sumigaeshi and held them. So he came away happy as a green belt with only four/five months training.
    The next grading we went to was a national grading a few months on, because of his size he was put in a large mixed pool of blues/browns although he was competent in a number of throws and combinations he reverted to Sumigaeshi and lost every fight to the more experienced grades, a few months on and he left.  He had great potential and I regret introducing him to this technique and he would never have been introduce so early if I did not suggest he attend the senior session.  Because under pressure that’s what he kept reverting back to.
    This is an excellent example of why it is so important to have solid fundamentals from the beginning.
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    Post by sodo Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:27 am



    One thing that children teach me is that you can't approach them as a mass and teach them a standardized curriculum. Their little personalities and interests assert themselves no matter how much you try to stuff them all into the same box. So why teach them all the same way? Children should be let loose to explore judo. Otherwise they're not gonna have much fun and you're going to get a class full of clones.

    Good point, in a perfect world you would teach each child individually but unfortunately in the real world most of us do not have the resources and the kids will be lucky to get five minutes of individual instruction. For the most part the content of my kids classes (when I do them) are pretty much the same as in the adult classes just delivered differently. Kids need to have fun, the younger they are the more fun they need. It does not matter what technique you are teaching them it has to be taught properly, there is no real way around that and learning a technique properly can be boring (especially for younger students) that's why I try and keep these parts of the class to short five minute blocks indiisbursed with randori and games, for the wild and fun throws that I generally do not allow in randori such as sutemi waza we have "verrückte fünf minuten" (crazy five minutes) where the general rules of class are eased off and anything goes (so long as it is safe)


    Then teach them to be good at ne waza. A strong ne waza foundation takes as long to lay down as a tachi waza one, so you might as well start now.

    A strong foundation in ne waza can usually be built faster than with tachi waza and the older the student the longer they need to form the foundation in tachi waza. Moving on the ground comes naturally to most kids and for the majority of beginners is a lot more fun because they are moving in a familiar enviroment, the have no fear of falling and they can identify their success and feel progress faster.
    In our kids classes they spend at least half the time in ne waza. which is the way i think it should be.


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    tafftaz


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    Post by tafftaz Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:42 am

    medo wrote:
    samsmith2424 wrote:It is hard now to relate to competitive grading as here it is technical grading only for the Kyu grades. Thanks for writing your experience.
    Yes it seems common these days not to contest at grades of kyu level, the premise seems to be, not loose students before they start actively testing their learn't technical skill against other students of the same grade.

    Juries out if this improves judo all depends on the knowledge and technical ability of the person teaching and judging the techniques in there syllabus.  


    A month ago I had a 54 yr old test for his technical 1st dan. I can honestly say that his skill level and knowledge of NNK has improved immeasurably since he started training for his technical dan grade test. He had a very good score.
    I was old school gradings, line ups and then theory. But I was younger. Now, although I had some shiai points toward my third dan, I tested for it under the technical grading. High score, high pass, but I have always practised nnk,knk throughout my judo life. Most people only learn them to grade and their poor technique shows through in these gradings.
    I contested all my grades in shiai. So did my son and daughter. I can see the merit of both systems and any way of keeping people interested in judo should be embraced.
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    Post by medo Thu Dec 12, 2013 8:10 am

    tafftaz wrote:
    medo wrote:
    samsmith2424 wrote:It is hard now to relate to competitive grading as here it is technical grading only for the Kyu grades. Thanks for writing your experience.
    Yes it seems common these days not to contest at grades of kyu level, the premise seems to be, not loose students before they start actively testing their learn't technical skill against other students of the same grade.

    Juries out if this improves judo all depends on the knowledge and technical ability of the person teaching and judging the techniques in there syllabus.  


    A month ago I had a 54 yr old test for his technical 1st dan. I can honestly say that his skill level and knowledge of NNK has improved immeasurably since he started training for his technical dan grade test. He had a very good score.
    I was old school gradings, line ups and then theory. But I was younger. Now, although I had some shiai points toward my third dan, I tested for it under the technical grading. High score, high pass, but I have always practised nnk,knk throughout my judo life. Most people only learn them to grade and their poor technique shows through in these gradings.
    I contested all my grades in shiai. So did my son and daughter. I can see the merit of both systems and any way of keeping people interested in judo should be embraced.

    I understand that most with advancing age taking grades do so through the technical side, which is I believe should be the way.
    Problems I have with younger grades going through technical only grade, is just demonstrating techniques on a willing partner. Bearing in mind that modern day teachings tend to be speed/strength Judo missing out finer points such as kuzushi/tsuri/ tai sabaki/debana so its all down to the knowledge of the instructor or the person judging the techniques or “scoring”.

    If most kyu gradings are done at club level then perhaps we will have an even greater problem of retention at the 1st kyu/dan level when they find their instructors teaching is crap and they just wasted perhaps ten years learning a syllabus that they cannot pull of one technique against a resisting opponent.

    Just my two cents worth way off topic I know.
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    Post by samsmith2424 Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:43 pm

    In the club I attend the problem is not retention of people. It is that now that most of the instructors have gone through this system of not doing contest but only a technical grade. The normal judo with competition and randori now seems foreign.

    I tried to speak to the clubs technical leader, a new dan grade, but she did not seem understood the complexities and importance of grip, stance and movement and how that affected the entry of throws. This was because, in my opinion, only a demonstration throw is taught with a stationary opponent for the kyu grades.

    It also means that anaerobic fitness is not trained as there is no need for this.

    She said simply at the end of our meeting we are not a competitive club.

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