Harai Makikomi

I don't know why, but I absolutely love this throw. I think for most people, Uchi Mata is the ultimate throw (I've even heard it referred to as the 'throw of the kings'), but for me, seeing a well executed Harai Makikomi just gives me goosebumps!

Like this one:



Having said that, I've never really tried doing it. I am a 4th Kyu and Makikomi throws are only introduced in the 2nd Kyu syllabus. It also looks like one of those throws where you can really injure your uke if you don't know what you're doing and that is the last thing I want to do!
So last night we got out the crashmats for the last 15 mins of class and I thought what the hell, lets give it a go! I was pleasantly surprised at how quickly I got it. I suppose when you remove the fear of injuring uke, it also makes you "go for it" a bit more.
Our sensei told me that he was impressed and that I had very good control when I'm in the middle of executing the throw, which just made my day. He also said that he will work with me to just make some minor adjustments (or as he said: with you being an ex-wrestler, we just need to add some finesse!) and then there is all the possibility that I can make it "my throw".

Needless to say, I went home a very happy boy!

What are the board elders' take on this throw? Do you like it/do it?

sydvicious wrote:I don't know why, but I absolutely love this throw. I think for most people, Uchi Mata is the ultimate throw (I've even heard it referred to as the 'throw of the kings'), but for me, seeing a well executed Harai Makikomi just gives me goosebumps!

Like this one:



Having said that, I've never really tried doing it. I am a 4th Kyu and Makikomi throws are only introduced in the 2nd Kyu syllabus. It also looks like one of those throws where you can really injure your uke if you don't know what you're doing and that is the last thing I want to do!
So last night we got out the crashmats for the last 15 mins of class and I thought what the hell, lets give it a go! I was pleasantly surprised at how quickly I got it. I suppose when you remove the fear of injuring uke, it also makes you "go for it" a bit more.
Our sensei told me that he was impressed and that I had very good control when I'm in the middle of executing the throw, which just made my day. He also said that he will work with me to just make some minor adjustments (or as he said: with you being an ex-wrestler, we just need to add some finesse!) and then there is all the possibility that I can make it "my throw".

Needless to say, I went home a very happy boy!

What are the bored elders' take on this throw? Do you like it/do it?

As a not so bored younger elder I would question your sensei as to introducing such a throw to a 4th kyu even with tweaks you will find it may work on grades/weight equal/less than, it is easily telegraphed unless you run onto it as in the giff posted.

Learn how to throw of standard grips, it takes time and a good instructor, experiment with Makikomi latter.

medo wrote:

sydvicious wrote:I don't know why, but I absolutely love this throw. I think for most people, Uchi Mata is the ultimate throw (I've even heard it referred to as the 'throw of the kings'), but for me, seeing a well executed Harai Makikomi just gives me goosebumps!

Like this one:



Having said that, I've never really tried doing it. I am a 4th Kyu and Makikomi throws are only introduced in the 2nd Kyu syllabus. It also looks like one of those throws where you can really injure your uke if you don't know what you're doing and that is the last thing I want to do!
So last night we got out the crashmats for the last 15 mins of class and I thought what the hell, lets give it a go! I was pleasantly surprised at how quickly I got it. I suppose when you remove the fear of injuring uke, it also makes you "go for it" a bit more.
Our sensei told me that he was impressed and that I had very good control when I'm in the middle of executing the throw, which just made my day. He also said that he will work with me to just make some minor adjustments (or as he said: with you being an ex-wrestler, we just need to add some finesse!) and then there is all the possibility that I can make it "my throw".

Needless to say, I went home a very happy boy!

What are the bored elders' take on this throw? Do you like it/do it?

As a not so bored younger elder I would question your sensei as to introducing such a throw to a 4th kyu even with tweaks you will find it may work on grades/weight equal/less than, it is easily telegraphed unless you run onto it as in the giff posted.

Learn how to throw of standard grips, it takes time and a good instructor, experiment with Makikomi latter.    

Firstly, I made a spelling mistake in the OP. It should have been Board elders, not Bored elders!   

Secondly, my sensei did not introduce it. I decided that I wanted to try it. He didn't expect me to do it, hence why he said he was impressed. I'm not trying to blow my own trumpet here, but if I am able to perform a specific technique, why should I not do it?

sydvicious wrote:I'm not trying to blow my own trumpet here, but if I am able to perform a specific technique, why should I not do it?

Not meaning to put too much of a dampner on your enthusiasm, but because ...

... you may hurt uke;
... you may hurt yourself;
... you may start trying this technique in less controlled, unsupervised circumstances;
... you may focus on this more advanced technique to the detriment of your development of more fundamental waza;
... you are unlikely to have a proper grasp of the specifics and intricacies of the technique

The list goes on.  

Attempting a technique, first-time, once-off, in a controlled, supervised session, with crash mats and a compliant uke, without hurting yourself or uke in no way means that you can "perform" a technique. Give it time and a lot more practice, under your sensei's supervision, before claiming to be able to "perform" this technique.

Crash mats

When I said: "if I can perform a technique", I wasn't saying that I've already perfected it. My sensei is 6th dan, so I think he is experienced and knowledgable enough not to let me do something stupid. Whenever a novice player tries to work on something above their grade, he actually forbids it to be used in randori. It is worked on under his strict supervision.

sydvicious wrote:When I said: "if I can perform a technique", I wasn't saying that I've already perfected it. My sensei is 6th dan, so I think he is experienced and knowledgable enough not to let me do something stupid. Whenever a novice player tries to work on something above their grade, he actually forbids it to be used in randori. It is worked on under his strict supervision.

Sounds to me as if you are going about it the correct way and have a sensei to help you the right way.

I love the throw but find it very difficult to pull off in shiai (because of my specific favoured gripping and general "style", if that makes sense)

As a lighter weight, the makikomi type throws are a bit more difficult to pull off (for me) but when the timing is right, they work very well.

I say you should practise it (with your senseis supervision as you state) and you can only gain from this.

There is nothing wrong with practising something as long as its not to the detriment of your normal learning curve.

I would rather see someone practise makikomi under supervision than attempt it under their own volition, if they have not done it before.
The problem with winding techniques (for kyu grades and some dan grades I know of) is that they become *a lazy attempt". I omitted the word throw because some people do not get that far. They just try to wrap ukes arm, turn in and flop to the floor. Invariably with their opponent either still standing ,or taking the attackers back to attack with a strangle. All because they have not taken the time to learn it correctly.
I have a shodan who tries this constantly because he is big and strong. Never works on anyone above 1st kyu because he cannot do it correctly. Drop and flop everytime. I have shown him many times on how to enter for the throw correctly, but he still makes the same error over and over again, all because he does not want to "lose" in randori. Russian mindset is a swine to get over. He gets thrown repeatedly and beaten regularly because of this attitude.
So Syd, by all means practise. Have fun. No-one knows you better than your sensei. If he is good with it, then who are we to argue??
I will say however, that as this is a public forum, when people post things like this there will always be a vast difference of opinion, so I can understand the logic behind some of the more negative replies to your post.

Davaro wrote:

sydvicious wrote:When I said: "if I can perform a technique", I wasn't saying that I've already perfected it. My sensei is 6th dan, so I think he is experienced and knowledgable enough not to let me do something stupid. Whenever a novice player tries to work on something above their grade, he actually forbids it to be used in randori. It is worked on under his strict supervision.

Sounds to me as if you are going about it the correct way and have a sensei to help you the right way.

I love the throw but find it very difficult to pull off in shiai (because of my specific favoured gripping and general "style", if that makes sense)

As a lighter weight, the makikomi type throws are a bit more difficult to pull off (for me) but when the timing is right, they work very well.

I say you should practise it (with your senseis supervision as you state) and you can only gain from this.

There is nothing wrong with practising something as long as its not to the detriment of your normal learning curve.

Exactly. Like I said, I don't want to hurt uke either and that is why I only tried it when we got the crashmats out. I think, realistically, when you try to do it in shiah, it will probably work best when someone runs on to you like the gif in the OP and let's face it, that is very likely to happen in the lower grades. Even I found myself doing it!
As stated, my sensei just seem to think that I "got" the general mechanics of the throw, hence why he wants to work on it with me. His view is that if he can see that, with a bit of 'fine tuning', someone will be able to perform a technique then they shouldn't have to wait untill they do the grading to work on it. If you take myself as an example, if he feels that I'll be able to do it, he is going to help me to achieve it and not wait for months (probably a year actually) untill I have to do the 2nd Kyu syllabus. He wants to help people to realise their potential and not hold them back.
Everyone works at their own pace and we all "get" certain techniques quicker than others. Some are lucky and are able to almost master difficult techniques early on. There is a guy who started roughly the same time as me and he has a deadly Sode-Tsuri-Komi-Goshi. He catches dan grades with it every week, yet he is still struggling with O-Soto-Gari. He was just able to grasp all the mechanics of Sode-Tsuri-Komi-Goshi, eventhoug it is a 1st Kyu throw.

tafftaz wrote:I would rather see someone practise makikomi under supervision than attempt it under their own volition, if they have not done it before.
The problem with winding techniques (for kyu grades and some dan grades I know of) is that they become *a lazy attempt". I omitted the word throw because some people do not get that far. They just try to wrap ukes arm, turn in and flop to the floor. Invariably with their opponent either still standing ,or taking the attackers back to attack with a strangle. All because they have not taken the time to learn it correctly.
I have a shodan who tries this constantly because he is big and strong. Never works on anyone above 1st kyu because he cannot do it correctly. Drop and flop everytime. I have shown him many times on how to enter for the throw correctly, but he still makes the same error over and over again, all because he does not want to "lose" in randori. Russian mindset is a swine to get over. He gets thrown repeatedly and beaten regularly because of this attitude.
So Syd, by all means practise. Have fun. No-one knows you better than your sensei. If he is good with it, then who are we to argue??
I will say however, that as this is a public forum, when people post things like this there will always be a vast difference of opinion, so I can understand the logic behind some of the more negative replies to your post.

I should've been clearer in the OP about my sensei's involvement, so I fully understand why I got negative responses. Hopefully, I've cleared it up.
About the Drop and Flop you spoke of. That is what I thought was happening when I first took an interest in the throw, but it was only when I saw how it is really supposed to be done when I really wanted to try it!

Here I am again walking where angels fear to tread.    AGAIN!

There is so much to write and explain. So many generalisations I fear I will make as judo is seldom B+W.

First. Are you all certain what you see in that clip is harai makikomi? Barai, the art of sweeping? Can you see a barai or do you see a block? By that I mean look at the Right leg of tori is there a barai?..................regardless, onward.

Is maki komi an attack, a waza in its own right?
If we use Kudo sensei's book Dynamic judo volume 1 the only mention of makikomi is as a renraku waza. There is no section where they are given their own status as a nage waza?
Daigo Sensei, however, in his book gives both options. Daigo sensei writes in most of his comments that the maki komi is a continuation of a broken throw BUT then goes on to write detailed instructions as to how to make a makikomi one's attacking waza?

I was taught that a makikomi is the result of a broken attack, a failed attack, a renraku waza. NOT a waza in its own right.
Makikomi was taught at the end of the kyu rank syllabus as the salvaging of a failed technique, a henka waza. eg one tries harai goshi, the waza lacks some component to complete the phase of kake so tori, rather than abandon his attack, continues by modifying his grip and sacrificing his balance in a last ditch attempt to throw or avoid a kaeshi waza.

Before we learn to run, learn to walk. before we learn to give away our balance, learn how to preserve it. To that end makikomi in MY dojo are taught toward the end of the kyu grade syllabus when my pupils have learned the importance of keeping balance and control while throwing. This balance I speak of entails tori maintaining his own balance and control over his own body while maintaining control over the body of his uke, this takes years to accomplish in most cases.

I am trying very hard to avoid generalisations. May I make a few and chalk it down to my own incompetence to do better?   There was a phase in judo shobu where an awful lot of makikomi where used as 'first line attacks'. They where bloody awful and generally meant tori would latch on to one of ukes arms and throw themselves in front of uke trying to pull them on the floor for a point of two. I hated seeing this. It failed in the true sense of maximum efficiency through minimum effort, it was the incorrect use of power and weight as apposed to technique.

For this reason I still, to this day, only ever teach makikomi as a salvage waza and never ever as a manner of direct attack.

This could be a book on its own but. I am aware what I write is not so welcome today as it is not popularist teaching.
I am in judo for the long term I want my pupils to be the same, to make use of what they use on the tatami off the tatami in terms of how they face life's daily difficulties. To that end I want them to make an appropriate reaction to what they encounter on and off the mat. It is unwise on and of the mat to sacrifice ones balance when one can do otherwise. I speak here of physical also psychological balance. Remember judo is a life's time study and that study has only one classroom, that being the dojo on the tatami, there is no substitute for time spent on a tatami with peers and a sensei.

So, before you learn to give away your physical balance in shobu first learn how to maintain it and utilise it. In terms of self defence it in unwise to sacrifice ones balance and go to the floor. I realise judo shiai is not self defence but we have to develop our habits somewhere and that practice area is in randori and shiai on a tatami.

Just read my post and have no idea what you will make of it?

Crash mats are a way to practice inappropriate level waza. If we learn judo from A through to Z we need never use a crash mat? Why would we? After all the hardest falls in judo from throws such as Yoko gake etc cannot be practiced using a crash mat. Stop the short cuts, judo is not a VISA art its a life's times commitment. WE should celebrate that and not see this heavy, step learning curve as a negative and this try to make short cuts. Oh, last thing practice ukemi EVERY lesson after taiso!

My very best wishes to one and all.

Mike

One problem with harai makikomi is that it is difficult to practice safely without a crash mat as it is a more committed technique than soto makikomi with your blocking leg planted. Soto makikomi allows you to practice that winding motion in a more controlled manner so that you aren't burying uke on every rep.

Neil G wrote:One problem with harai makikomi is that it is difficult to practice safely without a crash mat ...  

????

Dang, I wonder how I (and most of my contemporaries) ever learnt or demonstrated the technique ...

Oh wait, there is also something like control in judo.


Let the trolling begin !   

Cichorei Kano wrote:

????

Dang, I wonder how I (and most of my contemporaries) ever learnt or demonstrated the technique ...

Oh wait, there is also something like control in judo.


Let the trolling begin !    

I thought Control was loose here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQfurGjH1cs
Now you tell me it has taken over Judo too?

Thanks for starting this topic Syd. It sounds like you have a good instructor and the ability to advance quickly. I like your enthusiasm for judo. It is always great to feel like you get a throw, even if only once. The crash pad may allow you to do more difficult techniques with improved safety, and it seems to have helped give you a quick feel of the throw. That better understanding can at least pay off in terms of defending yourself against the same attack.

I love the responses so far and there is something to be considered in each one. Personally, I can't remember ever teaching harai makikomi. Yet all my students that made it to shodan have been able to perform it. I think the reason is that skill in harai makikomi comes from a natural progression from thoroughly learning a variety of throwing principles and specifically other sutemi waza first, then get introduced to simpler forms of makikomi where you can learn the control necessary for harai makikomi which is probably at the top of the chain of soto makikomi, osoto makikomi, uchi makikomi, and maybe even uchimata makikomi or hane makikomi. Many of us have seen injuries from careless improper application of this type of throw, so we caution against jumping right to it, but your harai goshi and other makikomi waza must also be skillfull (honed in randori, not just on crashpads).

You have a ways to go yet. The fact that your throwing experience whetted your appetite for this journey is great. I can remember some of my ippons from tournaments 40 years ago, the first time I thought I really figured out osoto gari, and some techniques that I had been trying to improve which actually worked in randori for the first time. These moments are valuable in showing you the possibilities and to encourage you to keep up your training.

Cheers.

The more senior instructors here have given some very good advice. i just wanted to add, for the OP, that your instructor will take you through the gokyo no waza in a way that builds upon skills previously learned. Students will want to have a really good feel for haraigoshi, uchimata, and hanegoshi before attempting the makikomi versions of those throws.

Tactically, makikomi throws are like sacrifice throws. If they fail, tori is a sitting duck. The other standing techniques allow tori to stay on his feet and transition to a follow-on attack. For example, if tori misses the haraigoshi because uke hops over the extened leg, he can follow up with ouchigari, osotogari, tai otoshi, or some other technique because he is still standing. Personally, I want to have as many attack options open to me.

The OP mentioned that he is a wrestler, and perhaps his ground work is very strong. A makikomi technique might appear to just be a takedown so you can get to his strongest part of the game. I would encourage students to develop a strong standing technique. Learn the makikomi throws at the proper time and use them as a last resort, as Hanon Sensei mentioned, when tori has committed himself to a series of attacks and they have failed.

Excuse my English because it is not my first language and my grandson is who is English major in university is helping me translate. Throw in video is henka ashi guruma. Throw is not harai goshi makikomi. Learning and teaching makikomi throw is very, very difficult. I teach judo to children in small dojo near Osaka. I never teach makikomi throw until at least 3 year experience and 16 to 17 years old.

Crash pad can not be used to learn makikomi throw. Makikomi throw require precise rotation and judgment of distance from execution of kake to finish on floor. Since crash raise height of landing surface, makikomi throw never can be learned correctly if using crash pad. We use crash pad in kata training only for nage no kata, kata-guruma. Only throw crash pad is used for is kata guruma. This help uke take many throw from kata guruma from tori.

So please understand makikomi is very difficult to learn. Makikomi throw must use precise rotation of tori in connection with distance control. Please be very careful using makikomi throw in practice.

Mitsuru
Retired Osaka Police and Osaka Police Judo Teacher

Welcome among us Nozomi senseï.

nothing to add other than Makikomi's are not particularly pleasant for Uke. Just bare this in mind when doing randori especially as you are a big dude.

Nozomi wrote:Excuse my English because it is not my first language and my grandson is who is English major in university is helping me translate.  Throw in video is henka ashi guruma. Throw is not harai goshi makikomi. Learning and teaching makikomi throw is very, very difficult.  I teach judo to children in small dojo near Osaka. I never teach makikomi throw until at least 3 year experience and 16 to 17 years old.

Crash pad can not be used to learn makikomi throw. Makikomi throw require precise rotation and judgment of distance from execution of kake to finish on floor.  Since crash raise height of landing surface, makikomi throw never can be learned correctly if using crash pad.  We use crash pad in kata training only for nage no kata, kata-guruma. Only throw crash pad is used for is kata guruma. This help uke take many throw from kata guruma from tori.

So please understand makikomi is very difficult to learn. Makikomi throw must use precise rotation of tori in connection with distance control. Please be very careful using makikomi throw in practice.

Mitsuru
Retired Osaka Police and Osaka Police Judo Teacher

Quoted for truth !

JudoStu wrote:nothing to add other than Makikomi's are not particularly pleasant for Uke. Just bare this in mind when doing randori especially as you are a big dude.

If done with good control, throws using makikomi are not so horrible.

It's the usual lack of control that makes the fall so hard.

Hanon wrote:Here I am again walking where angels fear to tread.    AGAIN!

There is so much to write and explain. So many generalisations I fear I will make as judo is seldom B+W.

First. Are you all certain what you see in that clip is harai makikomi? Barai, the art of sweeping? Can you see a barai or do you see a block? By that I mean look at the Right leg of tori is there a barai?..................regardless, onward.

Is maki komi an attack, a waza in its own right?
If we use Kudo sensei's book Dynamic judo volume 1 the only mention of makikomi is as a renraku waza. There is no section where they are given their own status as a nage waza?
Daigo Sensei, however, in his book gives both options. Daigo sensei writes in most of his comments that the maki komi is a continuation of a broken throw BUT then goes on to write detailed instructions as to how to make a makikomi one's attacking waza?

I was taught that a makikomi is the result of a broken attack, a failed attack, a renraku waza. NOT a waza in its own right.
Makikomi was taught at the end of the kyu rank syllabus as the salvaging of a failed technique, a henka waza. eg one tries harai goshi, the waza lacks some component to complete the phase of kake so tori, rather than abandon his attack, continues by modifying his grip and sacrificing his balance in a last ditch attempt to throw or avoid a kaeshi waza.

Before we learn to run, learn to walk. before we learn to give away our balance, learn how to preserve it. To that end makikomi in MY dojo are taught toward the end of the kyu grade syllabus when my pupils have learned the importance of keeping balance and control while throwing. This balance I speak of entails tori maintaining his own balance and control over his own body while maintaining control over the body of his uke, this takes years to accomplish in most cases.

I am trying very hard to avoid generalisations. May I make a few and chalk it down to my own incompetence to do better?   There was a phase in judo shobu where an awful lot of makikomi where used as 'first line attacks'. They where bloody awful and generally meant tori would latch on to one of ukes arms and throw themselves in front of uke trying to pull them on the floor for a point of two. I hated seeing this. It failed in the true sense of maximum efficiency through minimum effort, it was the incorrect use of power and weight as apposed to technique.

For this reason I still, to this day, only ever teach makikomi as a salvage waza and never ever as a manner of direct attack.

This could be a book on its own but. I am aware what I write is not so welcome today as it is not popularist teaching.
I am in judo for the long term I want my pupils to be the same, to make use of what they use on the tatami off the tatami in terms of how they face life's daily difficulties. To that end I want them to make an appropriate reaction to what they encounter on and off the mat.  It is unwise on and of the mat to sacrifice ones balance when one can do otherwise. I speak here of physical also psychological balance. Remember judo is a life's time study and that study has only one classroom, that being the dojo on the tatami, there is no substitute for time spent on a tatami with peers and a sensei.

So, before you learn to give away your physical balance in shobu first learn how to maintain it and utilise it. In terms of self defence it in unwise to sacrifice ones balance and go to the floor. I realise judo shiai is not self defence but we have to develop our habits somewhere and that practice area is in randori and shiai on a tatami.

Just read my post and have no idea what you will make of it?

Crash mats are a way to practice inappropriate level waza. If we learn judo from A through to Z we need never use a crash mat? Why would we? After all the hardest falls in judo from throws such as Yoko gake etc cannot be practiced using a crash mat. Stop the short cuts, judo is not a VISA art its a life's times commitment. WE should celebrate that and not see this heavy, step learning curve as a negative and this try to make short cuts. Oh, last thing practice ukemi EVERY lesson after taiso!

My very best wishes to one and all.

Mike

Bolded section is my experience as well...so true, so true...