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    Altered perception

    Reinberger
    Reinberger


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    Post by Reinberger Tue Jul 07, 2015 3:12 am

    johan smits wrote:Come to think of it. Are these not also the somewhat grandiose stories about the founder of aikido, Morihei Ueshiba? About him being able to dodge bullets? Maybe these were ordinary changed percepton of time incidents and had Tengu nothing to do with them. Basketball

    Happy landings.

    Johan, I don't know, what Aikidō's Ō-sensei was or wasn't able to do, but rest assured, that I don't believe, that I would "be able to dodge bullets".

    That doesn't mean, that, if an appropriate situation occurs, and that altered perception sets in, so that I would have some (perceived) time to decide, the result wouldn't be, that exactly that would be the best thing to try in the given situation. If there would be any chance to succeed with that, is a completely different question. I choose to keep sceptical. Wink
    Reinberger
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    Post by Reinberger Tue Jul 07, 2015 4:34 am

    DougNZ wrote: ...  Another poster on this forum a number of years ago said that his many streetfights happened in complete silence and he was completely devoid of emotion, like a stone.

    DougNZ, during the incidents I've described, I always only - albeit to different extents - experienced that altered perceptions of time. Never were there any alterations of seeing, hearing, or other (physical) feelings or perceptions involved, in my case.

    However, what I experienced at incident numbers 2. and 6., and especially at the accident specified under 4., was an unusual type of "emotion", or, perhaps, "lack of emotion".

    Ice-cold and crystal-clear

    I would like to describe my state during that incidents as being "ice-cold" (not regarding temperature, but referring to my "mood"), pertaining to the situation as a whole. As I told, that didn't exclude a feeling of anger, first regarding the screams, and then regarding the awkwardness of the driver and other passengers, to leave the wreck immediately, on a somewhat "different", and "lower level" of consciousness. I don't know, if "lower level" really is the best way to describe what I mean. The "coolness" always was there, as determinant mood, whereas the "anger" happened on a less important, superficial level.

    The second thing I have to describe, is a feeling of absolute acuteness, of thought, as well as of evaluation of reality. It felt, as if I immediately knew everything there was to know about the situation, and that every decision I made was exactly the best I could make. Or, no, it didn't just "feel" like that, it really and truly WAS so. Every single decision was absolutely beyond doubt for me, something, that is significantly different to my experiences in "normal" life. The feeling was, that it simply was not possible for me to draw any wrong conclusion or to take any wrong decision in that state. Everything seemed to be crystal clear.

    I wonder, if that kind of condition couldn't even alter the "well-known assumptions" (not to have to call it "secured knowledge" this time), of what one might be able to, or might not be able to apply in highly dangerous situations. I know, that I'm moving at highly speculative ground now, but nevertheless ...

    I think, such considerations might offer a possible explanation at least, for some of the stories from the past or from present, everybody hears or reads from time to time, but only a few believe.

    And they also might give hints for an explanation of stories and phenomenons like some of the historical "Samurai",  former "Kamikaze" and contemporary suicide attackers as well.
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    johan smits


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    Post by johan smits Tue Jul 07, 2015 6:28 am

    Robert,

    Compared to your experiences my incident was a minor one but I do recall 'not being afraid' indeed as a certain knowledge it would turn out okay (during faling).

    Being in danger (even on a regular basis) alone will indeed not suffice I think. Some kind of structural training should be available, maybe even to act as some sort of vessel or channel (for lack of better words). But would this have to be a fighting art or would any intense physical art or training suffice?
    In a way a lifetime of training in judo and jujutsu makes one very aware of things (surroundings, other people) and one walks with a certain amount of confidence in one's abilities. Maybe such confidence is needed for such things to occur. Proper intense training over a long period or when the times dictate or shorter period will give one such confidence.
    Confidence in one's abillities makes one in a way relaxed (or at least not undue tensed up), maybe relaxation is a keyword.

    Oh by the by.
    My few words adressed to NBK on Kano taking a nap was, how shall I put it?
    Ein Versuch einen Witz zu machen? jocolor

    Gluckliche Landungen.



    NBK
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    Post by NBK Tue Jul 07, 2015 12:12 pm

    I'm reading one of the oldest complex judo texts. There is an entire treatment of how the mind and body work together - physical fitness and training affect the mind, and your mental attitude affects your physical abilities. The explicit notion is to place the body and mind under substantial, managed, increasing but controlled stress to build individuals capable of dealing with a wide array of mental and physical challenges. The maturity and portrayal of this concept seems quite advanced to me, given the early date.

    While I assume judo organizations in Japan (Kodokan, All Japan Judo Federation, etc) certainly know this, and individuals know this, I'm not aware if there is a clear articulation of such a complex notion these days. The Judo MIND program message is pretty broad but not so deep. Manners, Independence, Nobility, Dignity. A hundred years on and I'm not sure there is a broad appreciation of what judo was oringally meant to offer.

    NBK
    Reinberger
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    Post by Reinberger Tue Jul 07, 2015 12:35 pm

    Johan,

    I think, what we are talking about, are in fact three different things at least. Things, that may be related, but that are still different, and not one and the same. Firstly, the appearance of this phenomenon of altered perception itself, or at all. Secondly, the ability to perform necessary physical acts, and finally, the confidence in one's abilities, you had described, which may lead to some kind of deeper relaxation. I would think, that the ability to control that "level two" emotions, I talked about earlier, also fall into that category.

    What you say about an "intense physical art or training" may help in several ways, but it's principal value lies in providing one with a profound arsenal of techniques or movements, from which to draw in those cases of emergency. I think, that belongs to the second and third of the points mentioned above. However, while I think that it may help a lot in such situations, beside being useful in numerous other ways, I'm not even sure if it is really necessary, regarding the things we are discussing now. Perhaps it even might have been something along those lines, that Yagyū Tajima no kami alluded to, when he meant "you need no technical training" (in another version of the story, Yagyū sensei only declared, that the technical instruction would be a very easy and quick task, in consideration of the fact, that the single-most important lesson of the art already was learnt and mastered beforehand).

    But surely, I don't know, how my number 6. incident would have ended, hadn't I had years of regularly ukemi-practice behind me. On the other hand, the second incident I wrote about, but without details, included two decisions of performing physical acts, that clearly lay beyond my technical skills, after just a few days of novice-training at skiing. Firstly I had to jump several meters forward with the fastened skis, and then I had to take a 90 degree turn to the left as fast as possible, after landing, without falling down, of course. Both moves worked out, despite of the fact that I hadn't had done such things ever before in my life. And also never again, I would like to add. Also, in incident number four, there wasn't even any chance to meaningful apply any of the physical techniques I train/ed.

    However, if any such type of physical training, you're talking about, would be a prerequisite for the phenomenon itself to appear, at least my first two incidents couldn't have happened, as I was only training for a few months then, and that with not more than just one training-session of one hour per week. The phenomenons clearly must have been evoked by something else.

    But what kind of thing might this be? I believe, like it is claimed in the legend I quoted, the key is either to have no mortal fear, or at least to have the ability to control fear of death to a high degree. That, at least, prevents the possibility to panic. Panic, I believe, even in a milder form, would hinder the body and mind to change into that state in question, which otherwise might appear naturally. Therefore, I guess, that the most important way to develop the ability to  ALLOW  that phenomenon to appear, is to already overcome agony by some means or other, before the dangerous situation appears at all. That may be accomplished by different forms of psychical training, by meditation, or even by religious practices. In my case, nothing of that applied. But for reasons, that are beyond this discussion, I wasn't particularly "attached to life", from early age on. For me, that may be an explanation for the first few appearances of the phenomenon in question.

    Later, and especially around incident number 4, I already had read and contemplated, what was available to me at that time, like Nitobe's "Bushidō, the soul of Japan", Suzuki's "Zen and Japanese Culture", as well as his "Der Westliche und der Östliche Weg" (I'm not sure if that book appeared in English, too) and other texts. I think, that the reason, such writings appealed to me despite of my relatively young age, was that attitude of defiance of death (but not daredevilry!), that (kind of incidentally) was already present within me.

    Now, that I've discussed point two (the means that partly are/were necessary) and point one (how and why the phenomenon might appear at all) of my itemization, point three is still missing. It's the other form of emotion control, that one, that you addressed with the description "confidence in one's abilities".

    Until now, you might have asked me: "If you believe, that that altered perception in times of need could only occur, as you didn't really feel mortal fear, how is it possible then, that you, yourself, talked about the fear you felt during some incidents?"

    Now, I think, that the type of fear I addressed in point one, is different from the type of fear I talk about now, in point three. It happens on that other, more superficial level, I earlier described, when I talked about some anger I felt during the car accident. The fear I mean now, is a fear happening on that same level. One other example, I can give, is the following: I was, and still am, able to get (sometimes even very) upset about all kinds of bits and bobs. But I'm also able to stay perfectly calm, when it's about more important things. I think, that physical training can help to become able to control emotions appearing at that level. I don't think, that it necessarily has to be budō training, but I also don't think, that it doesn't matter at all, which kind of training it is. Every training might address it's own goals. Budō training, naturally, will especially increase the "confidence in one's ability", regarding physical altercations with other persons, or even animals. That is my explanation, why I had felt that kind of fear during the incidents that happened at the begin of my training, but not during later confrontations. I even suspect, that that might have been the reason, why my body didn't "feel the need" to change into that "special mode" at occasions, where, to me, it would have been "rational" to do so. But, perhaps, the level of physical harassment I had perceived unconsciously, may simply haven't been "high enough".

    Please be aware of the fact, that everything I wrote now and earlier in this thread - and it was not easy for me, to discuss this in English, I hope I was able to find expressions and wordings, that made clear what I mean, most of the times -  are only my opinions, based on the personal experiences I've made, and my thoughts about them. I have no idea, if any of that opinions is scientifically tenable.
    Reinberger
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    Post by Reinberger Tue Jul 07, 2015 7:50 pm

    NBK wrote:I'm reading one of the oldest complex judo texts.  There is an entire treatment of how the mind and body work together - physical fitness and training affect the mind, and your mental attitude affects your physical abilities.  The explicit notion is to place the body and mind under substantial, managed, increasing but controlled stress to build individuals capable of dealing with a wide array of mental and physical challenges.  The maturity and portrayal of this concept seems quite advanced to me, given the early date.  

    While I assume judo organizations in Japan (Kodokan, All Japan Judo Federation, etc) certainly know this, and individuals know this, I'm not aware if there is a clear articulation of such a complex notion these days.  The Judo MIND program message is pretty broad but not so deep. Manners, Independence, Nobility, Dignity.   A hundred years on and I'm not sure there is a broad appreciation of what judo was oringally meant to offer.

    NBK

    NBK,

    I find it funny and interesting, that you have included "manners" in your last paragraph.

    Actually, I often talk to students about, and try to explain the significance of everyday- and special dōjō reiho and reishiki even for contemporary cases of emergency or self-defence situations on the street, or even on battlefield; something, that I think is not very accepted or even known  these days, due to it's SEEMINGLY insignificance. I think that to be a loss of wisdom, something, rather typical for budō, that is thrown away in negligence, while many seem to apply all kinds of newer, scientific knowledge only, because it is better known today. But with developments like that, possibly even some of the most interesting and awesome aspects of budō might get lost.

    Yes, me too thinks, that budō is a very broad field, that has to offer a lot, and there's a lot more about many things, that may seem to be dispensable, unwanted additional tasks, originally included "only" due to their origin within a "different" culture, at first sight.
    NBK
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    Post by NBK Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:37 am

    Reinberger wrote:
    NBK wrote:I'm reading one of the oldest complex judo texts.  There is an entire treatment of how the mind and body work together - physical fitness and training affect the mind, and your mental attitude affects your physical abilities.  The explicit notion is to place the body and mind under substantial, managed, increasing but controlled stress to build individuals capable of dealing with a wide array of mental and physical challenges.  The maturity and portrayal of this concept seems quite advanced to me, given the early date.  

    While I assume judo organizations in Japan (Kodokan, All Japan Judo Federation, etc) certainly know this, and individuals know this, I'm not aware if there is a clear articulation of such a complex notion these days.  The Judo MIND program message is pretty broad but not so deep. Manners, Independence, Nobility, Dignity.   A hundred years on and I'm not sure there is a broad appreciation of what judo was oringally meant to offer.

    NBK

    NBK,

    I find it funny and interesting, that you have included "manners" in your last paragraph.

    Actually, I often talk to students about, and try to explain the significance of everyday- and special dōjō reiho and reishiki even for contemporary cases of emergency or self-defence situations on the street, or even on battlefield; something, that I think is not very accepted or even known  these days, due to it's SEEMINGLY insignificance. I think that to be a loss of wisdom, something, rather typical for budō, that is thrown away in negligence, while many seem to apply all kinds of newer, scientific knowledge only, because it is better known today. But with developments like that, possibly even some of the most interesting and awesome aspects of budō might get lost.

    Yes, me too thinks, that budō is a very broad field, that has to offer a lot, and there's a lot more about many things, that may seem to be dispensable, unwanted additional tasks, originally included "only" due to their origin within a "different" culture, at first sight.
    This oversight or ignorance of the importance of manners / etiquette (JA: reigi or reihô) seems to be most pronounced outside Japan. Within Japan, there is a reasonable effort to teach and require it be adhered to, at least to a bit. Just today I discussed with a member of the Kodokan staff how new students to the Kodokan should be shown the proper reigi.


    NBK
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    johan smits


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    Post by johan smits Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:02 am

    Robert,
    Many thanks for an, again very well thought out and written piece. is English also not my first language (obvious) and I very much feel like you do.
    I already stated I have some catching up to do on my reading on this subject. I am not sure as to why these altered time perceptions appear. People in distress? Maybe, but then we should find out if they only appear in people who are trained. If not they clearly belong to the general public and it might be on the same level as an adrenaline boost to help us survive a dangerous situation.
    If training (some sort of) is necessary than maybe any form of training will do.
    I am pragmatist I do not believe in systems with an vast array of techniques. The less techniques learned, the less confusion there will be when an emergency arises. I guess this is one of the points Doug makes and I agree with him.
    Your remarks on Reiho are spot on when you ask me. Absolutely right. The loss of Reiho , not so much in the dojo but in society (the dojo at large in a way) results in a lot of problems ranging from abusive behavior towards one another till terrorist attacks. It is actually more destructive than people realize.
    Happy landings.


    Come to think of it (see my earlier posts) Kano was probably not taking a nappy. Smile
    Reinberger
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    Post by Reinberger Wed Jul 08, 2015 7:13 pm

    Dear readers,

    when I, in some detail, described some of the situations I'd experienced, one of my reasons to do so was to possibly evoke memories about similar occurrences in other people. But, so far, it seems that only Johan and I had to share corresponding, personal experiences. I don't think that we are so special, and would be very interested in learning about other people's practical knowledge along those lines. Would you care to tell about your's?
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    johan smits


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    Post by johan smits Thu Jul 09, 2015 1:45 am

    Robert,

    I am sorry to say but I do not agree with you at all.
    I think we are very special pig

    But of course you are right it would be best if other people would chime in on this one. We all could probably learn a thing or two.

    Happy landings.
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    DougNZ


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    Post by DougNZ Wed Jul 15, 2015 10:41 pm

    Me again; not sharing any personal experiences but those of my instructor.

    My instructor has been in over 300 altercations. A number of them provoked altered perception. In three cases involving multiple opponents he experienced time distortion such that he felt he was moving at normal speed but the other people were moving noticeable slower than him. He believes the trigger was a perception of lethal danger and as soon as the danger subsided he returned to normal time.

    In a number of other cases where he knew other guards had his back and the altercation was of a one-on-one nature, he experienced tunnel vision with strong focus on the visible portion. He felt that because surroundings did not matter, they blurred into the background whereas the opponent was in sharp relief, almost as if he had been cut out of the background.

    He also recalls two other cases of time distortion. In the first, whilst driving his car over a bridge, an on-coming car crossed the centre line towards him. He was not wearing a seat belt. He said everything slowed down, which allowed him to measure the distance between the on-coming car and the side of the bridge, and to steer through. He lost both wing mirrors but the car was otherwise unscratched. In the second case, he was hit whilst riding a bicycle and flew over the handle bars. He said time suddenly slowed and he had time to consider his forward roll and execute it without any injury.

    He says he has never experienced sensory distortion in a dojo situation. Where time slowed, it was because of the perception of lethal danger.

    Reinberger wrote:Dear readers,

    when I, in some detail, described some of the situations I'd experienced, one of my reasons to do so was to possibly evoke memories about similar occurrences in other people. But, so far, it seems that only Johan and I had to share corresponding, personal experiences. I don't think that we are so special, and would be very interested in learning about other people's practical knowledge along those lines. Would you care to tell about your's?

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