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    Koshiki-no-kata with actual throwing

    Cichorei Kano
    Cichorei Kano

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    Koshiki-no-kata with actual throwing Empty Koshiki-no-kata with actual throwing

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sun Feb 17, 2013 6:47 am

    I am posting this clip to allow people interested in learning or studying Koshiki-no-kata to see that one indeed is supposed to actually throw in this kata rather than following the today more common mannerist copycat approach that makes no sense. Kata is still performed without the Kotani-introduced diagonal positions for movement 5 through, and the kata is at least alive not concerned with metric replication. Most important is that one learns how to appreciate the actual principles that underpin a throw when one actually throws; one learns to comprehend what is possible and what not and why. I encourage you to appreciate the positive things in the clip, rather than on the things that need improvement. That is really all I want to mention. For the rest it really is mastering the actual throwing that helps you consolidate grasping the basis of this kata. Inner calm, ki, and higher principles are to build on that, not the other way around. Enjoy !



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    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
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    Hanon

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    Post by Hanon on Sun Feb 17, 2013 7:12 am

    Who taught them that kata?

    There are-where only a handful of sensei on this earth who could have taught them that. I know three of them. That style is definitive.

    Mike


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    WARNING. I write as a pupil of judo. what I write should be researched by the reader and not accepted as in any way factual or correct.

    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge" S Hawking.
    Jonesy
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    Post by Jonesy on Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:25 am

    Hanon wrote:Who taught them that kata?

    There are-where only a handful of sensei on this earth who could have taught them that. I know three of them. That style is definitive.

    Mike
    Who are your 3 sensei then? Awazu, Daigo , Kobayashi??
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    Hanon

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    Post by Hanon on Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:56 am

    Jonesy wrote:
    Hanon wrote:Who taught them that kata?

    There are-where only a handful of sensei on this earth who could have taught them that. I know three of them. That style is definitive.

    Mike
    Who are your 3 sensei then? Awazu, Daigo , Kobayashi??

    Awazu sensei some 40 years ago. Henri Monducci(sp) some 30 years ago. Michigami sensei some 35 years ago. I would also imagine Clause sensei also being well able in this kata but don't know.

    Daigo sensei has been kodokanised (judo castrated by obedience through absolute loyalty). Kobayashi sensei, no idea?

    In the Budokwai some many years ago there where a couple who performed this kata, taught by Leggett sensei. One of them was Warwick Steptoe the other ??????? Having written that it may have been the Renshuden?(sp)

    The greatest, most dynamic and formidable kata team I have ever been honoured to see where Matsushita Saburo and again the chap I cannot think of the name of. John.....??? Died rather young? That was the randori no kata. Sublime.

    Mike



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    WARNING. I write as a pupil of judo. what I write should be researched by the reader and not accepted as in any way factual or correct.

    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge" S Hawking.
    Jonesy
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    Post by Jonesy on Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:04 am

    John Newman?

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/obituary-john-newman-2324239.html
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    Hanon

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    Post by Hanon on Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:20 am

    Jonesy wrote:John Newman?

    That name rings bells but I could not swear to it. I think the person I am thinking of was a university judoka? Same era as Sweeney sensei?
    I need to get my notes out and have a read up.

    I also need to get some Betamax tapes copied onto DVD. Now I mention it I have a ton of photos I could try and download here. All I have to do is find out how! Very Happy Arrow Me and my big mouth.

    I will mention another name who had a fantastic knowledge of this kata and all the others, Guy Pelletier (sp?) also the old chap Parisi sensei. I was his uke for some of his kata going back 40 odd years, I have the physical and psychological scars to prove it AND SOME PHOTOS! bounce

    Mike


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    WARNING. I write as a pupil of judo. what I write should be researched by the reader and not accepted as in any way factual or correct.

    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge" S Hawking.
    Jonesy
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    Post by Jonesy on Sun Feb 17, 2013 9:47 am

    Here is the GB team from the Tokyo Olympics - from L-to-R: Jacks, Hoare, Sweeney, Petherbridge and Newman (Team Manager):

    Koshiki-no-kata with actual throwing Judo-tokyo-olympic-games-1964

    Guy Pelletier 9 dan (Kodokan 8 dan) was a great man - he died, age 90, in April 2011:

    Homage a Guy Pelletier

    For many years he was the highest Kodokan graded judoka of non-Japanese descent in the world. Too many of the Western judo greats are now passing away and that void of knowledge that they will leave can not be filled the next generation of Westerners. Very sadly, the same will also happen to the Kodokan 10 dan holders too.

    For the other French judoka I guess you mean Pariset not Parisi, and that specifically you mean Bernard Pariset who too is sadly dead. I had the privilege of training under his brother, Daniel Pariset. Tough training - great man.
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    Hanon

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    Post by Hanon on Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:14 am

    Jonesy wrote:Here is the GB team from the Tokyo Olympics - from L-to-R: Jacks, Hoare, Sweeney, Petherbridge and Newman (Team Manager):

    Koshiki-no-kata with actual throwing Judo-tokyo-olympic-games-1964

    Guy Pelletier 9 dan (Kodokan 8 dan) was a great man - he died, age 90, in April 2011:

    Homage a Guy Pelletier

    For many years he was the highest Kodokan graded judoka of non-Japanese descent in the world. Too many of the Western judo greats are now passing away and that void of knowledge that they will leave can not be filled the next generation of Westerners. Very sadly, the same will also happen to the Kodokan 10 dan holders too.

    For the other French judoka I guess you mean Pariset not Parisi, and that specifically you mean Bernard Pariset who too is sadly dead. I had the privilege of training under his brother, Daniel Pariset. Tough training - great man.

    I am rapidly going off this thread. Everyone I mention is dead! affraid

    Mike Sad


    _________________
    WARNING. I write as a pupil of judo. what I write should be researched by the reader and not accepted as in any way factual or correct.

    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge" S Hawking.
    Cichorei Kano
    Cichorei Kano

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    Koshiki-no-kata with actual throwing Empty Re: Koshiki-no-kata with actual throwing

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:14 am

    Jonesy wrote:
    Hanon wrote:Who taught them that kata?

    There are-where only a handful of sensei on this earth who could have taught them that. I know three of them. That style is definitive.

    Mike
    Who are your 3 sensei then? Awazu, Daigo , Kobayashi??

    How do you arrive at Daigo or Kobayashi ? Both are totally impossible options.


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    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
    Jonesy
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    Post by Jonesy on Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:17 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Jonesy wrote:
    Hanon wrote:Who taught them that kata?
    There are-where only a handful of sensei on this earth who could have taught them that. I know three of them. That style is definitive.
    Mike
    Who are your 3 sensei then? Awazu, Daigo , Kobayashi??
    How do you arrive at Daigo or Kobayashi ? Both are totally impossible options.
    Only speculating who Hanon-sensei might have met?
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    Hanon

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    Post by Hanon on Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:25 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Jonesy wrote:
    Hanon wrote:Who taught them that kata?

    There are-where only a handful of sensei on this earth who could have taught them that. I know three of them. That style is definitive.

    Mike
    Who are your 3 sensei then? Awazu, Daigo , Kobayashi??

    How do you arrive at Daigo or Kobayashi ? Both are totally impossible options.

    Very Happy Sorry, that is my fault, I took the thread of topic and started to reminisce. We have ended up talking at cross purposes. Again my fault. Embarassed

    BTW who was the sensei responsible for that rendition?

    Mike


    _________________
    WARNING. I write as a pupil of judo. what I write should be researched by the reader and not accepted as in any way factual or correct.

    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge" S Hawking.
    Cichorei Kano
    Cichorei Kano

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    Post by Cichorei Kano on Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:28 am

    Jonesy wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Jonesy wrote:
    Hanon wrote:Who taught them that kata?
    There are-where only a handful of sensei on this earth who could have taught them that. I know three of them. That style is definitive.
    Mike
    Who are your 3 sensei then? Awazu, Daigo , Kobayashi??
    How do you arrive at Daigo or Kobayashi ? Both are totally impossible options.
    Only speculating who Hanon-sensei might have met?

    Unfortunately, that does not work. You need to cross-reference to style and personal understanding of the kata.

    Most people of this generation have known Daigo only as teaching this kata but have never actually seen Daigo perform it when he still could. It dates from before they were sufficiently advanced to study this kata. Daigo's approach has been one characterized by an obsession to replicate to the outside world the inner calm which Kano dispayed in the famous George Méliés B&W film with no sound. This is obvious in his 1980s demonstrations, such as those with Takeuchi Yoshinori (of which recordings exist; he was 8th dan then). The focus on being perceived by the audience as someone who is calm is tangible, and already then the effectiveness of technique is being sacrificed just for the sake of "looking calm". In Kanô the outward calm appearance is the result of a truly present inner calm (not just some 'appearance') and of his long training in Kitô-ryû. It's an effect, not an origin. Daigo in his teaching gives the impression as he almost wants to skip expecting his students to go through all the steps of mastering the techniques and dozens of years of learning before finally achieving that calm, and instead forces them to move in slow motion (today's "geriatric style of koshiki-no-kata performances") so that superficially they look calm while in reality they are as tense as the string of a bow trembling sometimes to make sure they don't make any mistakes against that what is expected. This is the paradox. One of the reasons Kanô actually IS mentally calm is because he couldn't care less about satisfying a particular person or making sure he didn't make one pass more or less and did master the techniques, and of course because he actually understood the kata which novice students in this kata (from whom Daigo nevertheless seems to have this impossible expectation of inner calm) do not and cannot. So the suggestion Daigo is simply not possible.

    The option Kobayashi is hardly possible either. To the best of my knowledge, Kobayashi like Mifune, was far more into itsutsu-no-kata than koshiki-no-kata.



    Last edited by Cichorei Kano on Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:41 am; edited 2 times in total


    _________________
    Koshiki-no-kata with actual throwing Dry

    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
    avatar
    Hanon

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    Koshiki-no-kata with actual throwing Empty Re: Koshiki-no-kata with actual throwing

    Post by Hanon on Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:35 am

    You are very serious tonight! Shocked

    Mike Wink


    _________________
    WARNING. I write as a pupil of judo. what I write should be researched by the reader and not accepted as in any way factual or correct.

    "The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge" S Hawking.
    budoitaly
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    Koshiki-no-kata with actual throwing Empty Re: Koshiki-no-kata with actual throwing

    Post by budoitaly on Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:33 am

    Hanon wrote:Who taught them that kata?


    His teacher was Barioli Cesare!
    Stevens
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    Koshiki-no-kata with actual throwing Empty Re: Koshiki-no-kata with actual throwing

    Post by Stevens on Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:48 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:I am posting this clip to allow people interested in learning or studying Koshiki-no-kata to see that one indeed is supposed to actually throw in this kata rather than following the today more common mannerist copycat approach that makes no sense. Kata is still performed without the Kotani-introduced diagonal positions for movement 5 through, and the kata is at least alive not concerned with metric replication. Most important is that one learns how to appreciate the actual principles that underpin a throw when one actually throws; one learns to comprehend what is possible and what not and why. I encourage you to appreciate the positive things in the clip, rather than on the things that need improvement. That is really all I want to mention. For the rest it really is mastering the actual throwing that helps you consolidate grasping the basis of this kata. Inner calm, ki, and higher principles are to build on that, not the other way around. Enjoy !

    This looks cool and realistic. Is this old school (Kawaishi, Awazu, Michigami)? Is this Kito-Ryu? Are there more examples?

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