My experiences as a judoka in BJJ

Dutch Budo wrote:

JudoStu wrote:I work with a guy who used to wrestle when he lived in the states (he is American), anyway I’ve just found out that didn’t just dabble with wrestling but was actually NCAA Division 1 and finished 4th in his last year of college.
He was interested when I told him I did BJJ the other night and is going to pay them a visit to see what it’s all about. Should he be upfront with the instructor before he takes to the mats? How do you think his wrestling will translate with a gi under BJJ rules?

White belts stand with white belts. The exception is if he is going to give a wrestling seminar or something, then he has the teaching role so he should stand with the teachers.

I don't think the question was where he stands in the lineup. The question is, if you have extensive wrestling experience is it a good idea to give the teacher a heads-up. I would think so, as long as it was done in a modest way. Similarly if I were to visit a BJJ class I would let the instructor know my judo experience.

He should stand next to the boxing coach

Neil G wrote:

Dutch Budo wrote:

JudoStu wrote:I work with a guy who used to wrestle when he lived in the states (he is American), anyway I’ve just found out that didn’t just dabble with wrestling but was actually NCAA Division 1 and finished 4th in his last year of college.
He was interested when I told him I did BJJ the other night and is going to pay them a visit to see what it’s all about. Should he be upfront with the instructor before he takes to the mats? How do you think his wrestling will translate with a gi under BJJ rules?

White belts stand with white belts. The exception is if he is going to give a wrestling seminar or something, then he has the teaching role so he should stand with the teachers.

I don't think the question was where he stands in the lineup. The question is, if you have extensive wrestling experience is it a good idea to give the teacher a heads-up. I would think so, as long as it was done in a modest way. Similarly if I were to visit a BJJ class I would let the instructor know my judo experience.

Yeah my questions wasn’t about where my Wrestler friend should stand it was more to do with whether he should tell the BJJ instructor and if his wrestling is likely to transmit well once wearing a gi and doing BJJ. I mean is an NCAA Division Wrestler likely to dominate white and blue belts or higher?

JudoStu wrote:
Yeah my questions wasn’t about where my Wrestler friend should stand it was more to do with whether he should tell the BJJ instructor and if his wrestling is likely to transmit well once wearing a gi and doing BJJ. I mean is an NCAA Division Wrestler likely to dominate white and blue belts or higher?

He'll likely spend his first few lessons holding all the blue belts in side control and being like "ummm... what do I do now?" Purple and up will be trickier at first, but wrestling is an amazing base for BJJ and he'll likely pick it up alarmingly quickly.

Doesn't do any harm to mention it to the instructor, but really it will be pretty obvious as soon as he steps on the mat. There's no reason he'd want to conceal his background, if that's what you're asking? BJJ doesn't have that kind of dysfunctional culture.

PointyShinyBurning wrote:

JudoStu wrote:
Yeah my questions wasn’t about where my Wrestler friend should stand it was more to do with whether he should tell the BJJ instructor and if his wrestling is likely to transmit well once wearing a gi and doing BJJ. I mean is an NCAA Division Wrestler likely to dominate white and blue belts or higher?

He'll likely spend his first few lessons holding all the blue belts in side control and being like "ummm... what do I do now?" Purple and up will be trickier at first, but wrestling is an amazing base for BJJ and he'll likely pick it up alarmingly quickly.

Doesn't do any harm to mention it to the instructor, but really it will be pretty obvious as soon as he steps on the mat. There's no reason he'd want to conceal his background, if that's what you're asking? BJJ doesn't have that kind of dysfunctional culture.

Well he does look like a Wrestler so i'm sure as soon as he walks in people will take notice of him especially when he puts on a white belt.
tbh I don't know the guy that well, I just chat with him in the work Gym. He often wears T-shirts with Wrestling slogans on them so I asked him one day if he wrestled. I only found out the level he wrestled at recently as he's not the type of guy to brag about his acheivements. Google backed up his story btw

genetic judoka wrote:
I can't say much about how hard it is to throw BJJ people, because I haven't successfully thrown any of them in competition yet.

Genetic, great read here...
This is my first post on this forum and I'm a Judo-gone BJJer so I really appreciate that you've shared your experiences. You've gone a lot further in Judo than I have as I'm only an Ikkyu, but I this comment has held true for my experiences competing in BJJ. The thing I find is that BJJ competitors do everything they can to avoid being set up for a big throw. They would get penalized to hell and back in a Judo tournament, and it doesn't matter because the rules are different. However, all the things that are illegal and penalized in Judo aside from dirty tactics are legal in BJJ. Cross lapel grip all day. Pistol grip at will. Attack the legs over and over again. etc... In my opinion, the stand up game that can be applied in BJJ is truer to Judo as it was in generations past. Next time you're preparing for a tournament, review all the things that are no longer allowed in Judo and bring them back into your game. Kata Guruma anyone?

Thanks again for the fun read!

MikeJudoBJJ wrote:

genetic judoka wrote:
I can't say much about how hard it is to throw BJJ people, because I haven't successfully thrown any of them in competition yet.

Genetic, great read here...
This is my first post on this forum and I'm a Judo-gone BJJer so I really appreciate that you've shared your experiences.  You've gone a lot further in Judo than I have as I'm only an Ikkyu, but I this comment has held true for my experiences competing in BJJ.  The thing I find is that BJJ competitors do everything they can to avoid being set up for a big throw.  They would get penalized to hell and back in a Judo tournament, and it doesn't matter because the rules are different.  However, all the things that are illegal and penalized in Judo aside from dirty tactics are legal in BJJ.  Cross lapel grip all day.  Pistol grip at will.  Attack the legs over and over again. etc... In my opinion, the stand up game that can be applied in BJJ is truer to Judo as it was in generations past.  Next time you're preparing for a tournament, review all the things that are no longer allowed in Judo and bring them back into your game.  Kata Guruma anyone?

Thanks again for the fun read!

....Especially the drop versions of Kata Guruma.

BJJ is notorious for stalling the standing up game. That said see this recent Tai Otoshi at this years PanAms...

Tai Otoshi in BJJ at the 2013 Pans - YouTube

So how it the BJJ  coming along------ any updates?

no noteworthy updates really. after I hurt my back I took some time off from BJJ (because that's where I hurt it). then my back started feeling better, and I caught a nasty stomach bug that stayed with me for a week, then I went back to judo and my back started hurting again. the end result was I didn't go to BJJ for a month and a half. last thursday was my first day back. and I'm considering skipping tonight because I'm having stomach troubles again. I feel like the after effects of that bug are still lingering 2 weeks later.

when I was there last week, the topic of belts came up. apparently they only do promotions once a year. I was told that I'll almost definitely be promoted to blue when they do them again in November. too bad I'm moving across the state in July, so that won't be happening. I really don't care that much though. nobody there treats me like I'm a white belt, so it's no big deal to me what belt I'm wearing.

genetic judoka wrote:no noteworthy updates really. after I hurt my back I took some time off from BJJ (because that's where I hurt it). then my back started feeling better, and I caught a nasty stomach bug that stayed with me for a week, then I went back to judo and my back started hurting again. the end result was I didn't go to BJJ for a month and a half. last thursday was my first day back. and I'm considering skipping tonight because I'm having stomach troubles again. I feel like the after effects of that bug are still lingering 2 weeks later.

when I was there last week, the topic of belts came up. apparently they only do promotions once a year. I was told that I'll almost definitely be promoted to blue when they do them again in November. too bad I'm moving across the state in July, so that won't be happening. I really don't care that much though. nobody there treats me like I'm a white belt, so it's no big deal to me what belt I'm wearing.

Did you hurt your back being stacked? As an older grappler (95Kilos) I often fight much bigger guys and I learned not to let anyone stack me----ever. I hurt my back the first year grappling and it was months in recovery. Now I make sure never to be stacked. It certainly has changed my game and for the better.

I think being stacked a lot contributed heavily to it, yes. I'm not entirely sure what the final straw was.

Genetic this is the best thread on here imo.  I keep hoping I'll come back and see like three extra new pages of discussion on this.  You really break it down for us and give the non-acquainted the view of BJJ from the mind of a Judo player, which is awesome.  Seriously you describe EXACTLY what I would want to know.

I start BJJ in two weeks (again, solely because it's too convenient to pass up) so I'll post about my experiences as well.  My thread'll be different in that my Judo ain't exactly stellar so I might entitle the thread "My experiences as a crappy Judoka in BJJ." 

But I'll be sure and post.

I'm basically a crappy BJJer in a Judo gi. This thread is pretty awesome.

NYCNewbie wrote:Genetic this is the best thread on here imo.  I keep hoping I'll come back and see like three extra new pages of discussion on this.  You really break it down for us and give the non-acquainted the view of BJJ from the mind of a Judo player, which is awesome.  Seriously you describe EXACTLY what I would want to know.

I start BJJ in two weeks (again, solely because it's too convenient to pass up) so I'll post about my experiences as well.  My thread'll be different in that my Judo ain't exactly stellar so I might entitle the thread "My experiences as a crappy Judoka in BJJ." 

But I'll be sure and post.

ahem.

poundsand wrote:

NYCNewbie wrote:Genetic this is the best thread on here imo.  I keep hoping I'll come back and see like three extra new pages of discussion on this.  You really break it down for us and give the non-acquainted the view of BJJ from the mind of a Judo player, which is awesome.  Seriously you describe EXACTLY what I would want to know.

I start BJJ in two weeks (again, solely because it's too convenient to pass up) so I'll post about my experiences as well.  My thread'll be different in that my Judo ain't exactly stellar so I might entitle the thread "My experiences as a crappy Judoka in BJJ." 

But I'll be sure and post.

ahem.

Haha- nice!  You're right- I need to keep my promises...

So here's what I'll do: I'll post here just briefly (I'm in a hurry right now) and then I'll start my own thread, since my experiences (considering the fact that I am a far lower-level Judo player than Genetic Judoka) are bound to be completely different than his.

Let me start out by saying that I LOVE BJJ and am so happy I began this journey- my GOD do I ever need help- the kind of help BJJ gives.  I love my Judo club with all my heart but there isn't a lot of teaching there- it's more of a "go at it and you'll figure it out"-type place, which for me isn't ideal.  At Jits there's far more step-by-step instruction, which I BADLY need.  

For example: you all know how, when you're on your back, that the leg closest to your opponent is supposed to be bent, with the foot (of the leg closest to your opponent) resting on the knee of the far leg (in order to guard against an attack and keep your opponent at bay)?  Well, I didn't know that- no one ever told me that in two and a half years of Judo.  But lo and behold, the first day in BJJ it was like "dude- just fyi- bend that leg to keep me away, otherwise it's too easy for me to control you."

Just basic, basic stuff like that I had no idea about...

Anyway, I promise to post in-depth very soon.  I really found another great place- the BJJ place is as welcoming, cool, and friendly/non-dickish as my Judo dojo.  Lucky me!

afulldeck wrote:

genetic judoka wrote:no noteworthy updates really. after I hurt my back I took some time off from BJJ (because that's where I hurt it). then my back started feeling better, and I caught a nasty stomach bug that stayed with me for a week, then I went back to judo and my back started hurting again. the end result was I didn't go to BJJ for a month and a half. last thursday was my first day back. and I'm considering skipping tonight because I'm having stomach troubles again. I feel like the after effects of that bug are still lingering 2 weeks later.

when I was there last week, the topic of belts came up. apparently they only do promotions once a year. I was told that I'll almost definitely be promoted to blue when they do them again in November. too bad I'm moving across the state in July, so that won't be happening. I really don't care that much though. nobody there treats me like I'm a white belt, so it's no big deal to me what belt I'm wearing.

Did you hurt your back being stacked? As an older grappler (95Kilos) I often fight much bigger guys and I learned not to let anyone stack me----ever. I hurt my back the first year grappling and it was months in recovery. Now I make sure never to be stacked. It certainly has changed my game and for the better.

How do you stop people from stacking you?
I ask as i'm thinking about doing BJJ over the summer whilst my Judo club is closed

JudoStu wrote:

afulldeck wrote:

genetic judoka wrote:no noteworthy updates really. after I hurt my back I took some time off from BJJ (because that's where I hurt it). then my back started feeling better, and I caught a nasty stomach bug that stayed with me for a week, then I went back to judo and my back started hurting again. the end result was I didn't go to BJJ for a month and a half. last thursday was my first day back. and I'm considering skipping tonight because I'm having stomach troubles again. I feel like the after effects of that bug are still lingering 2 weeks later.

when I was there last week, the topic of belts came up. apparently they only do promotions once a year. I was told that I'll almost definitely be promoted to blue when they do them again in November. too bad I'm moving across the state in July, so that won't be happening. I really don't care that much though. nobody there treats me like I'm a white belt, so it's no big deal to me what belt I'm wearing.

Did you hurt your back being stacked? As an older grappler (95Kilos) I often fight much bigger guys and I learned not to let anyone stack me----ever. I hurt my back the first year grappling and it was months in recovery. Now I make sure never to be stacked. It certainly has changed my game and for the better.

How do you stop people from stacking you?
I ask as i'm thinking about doing BJJ over the summer whilst my Judo club is closed

Generally, preventing stacking comes in four forms: shoulder walking, leg pummelling, ridged body action and allowing the pass. In shoulder walking you use your shoulders to walk your body away from the stacking action. Leg pummelling requires one's pummel the legs back inside the opponent's arms (typically used in conjunction with shoulder walking) again to remove the stacking action.   Ridged body is used with passing over the legs, where you tighten your whole core and legs (make yourself ridged) and use tori's passing action to help you roll over your shoulder into a turtle position, then recover guard immediately. Finally, the last way is to avoid the stack is let the tori pass and deal with the consequences of the pass or let if your attempting a submission and are getting stacked let it go.

afulldeck wrote:

JudoStu wrote:

afulldeck wrote:

genetic judoka wrote:no noteworthy updates really. after I hurt my back I took some time off from BJJ (because that's where I hurt it). then my back started feeling better, and I caught a nasty stomach bug that stayed with me for a week, then I went back to judo and my back started hurting again. the end result was I didn't go to BJJ for a month and a half. last thursday was my first day back. and I'm considering skipping tonight because I'm having stomach troubles again. I feel like the after effects of that bug are still lingering 2 weeks later.

when I was there last week, the topic of belts came up. apparently they only do promotions once a year. I was told that I'll almost definitely be promoted to blue when they do them again in November. too bad I'm moving across the state in July, so that won't be happening. I really don't care that much though. nobody there treats me like I'm a white belt, so it's no big deal to me what belt I'm wearing.

Did you hurt your back being stacked? As an older grappler (95Kilos) I often fight much bigger guys and I learned not to let anyone stack me----ever. I hurt my back the first year grappling and it was months in recovery. Now I make sure never to be stacked. It certainly has changed my game and for the better.

How do you stop people from stacking you?
I ask as i'm thinking about doing BJJ over the summer whilst my Judo club is closed

Generally, preventing stacking comes in four forms: shoulder walking, leg pummelling, ridged body action and allowing the pass. In shoulder walking you use your shoulders to walk your body away from the stacking action. Leg pummelling requires one's pummel the legs back inside the opponent's arms (typically used in conjunction with shoulder walking) again to remove the stacking action.   Ridged body is used with passing over the legs, where you tighten your whole core and legs (make yourself ridged) and use tori's passing action to help you roll over your shoulder into a turtle position, then recover guard immediately. Finally, the last way is to avoid the stack is let the tori pass and deal with the consequences of the pass or let if your attempting a submission and are getting stacked let it go.

Is this shoulder walking ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ML3tR0jWiEE

JudoStu wrote:

afulldeck wrote:

JudoStu wrote:

afulldeck wrote:

genetic judoka wrote:no noteworthy updates really. after I hurt my back I took some time off from BJJ (because that's where I hurt it). then my back started feeling better, and I caught a nasty stomach bug that stayed with me for a week, then I went back to judo and my back started hurting again. the end result was I didn't go to BJJ for a month and a half. last thursday was my first day back. and I'm considering skipping tonight because I'm having stomach troubles again. I feel like the after effects of that bug are still lingering 2 weeks later.

when I was there last week, the topic of belts came up. apparently they only do promotions once a year. I was told that I'll almost definitely be promoted to blue when they do them again in November. too bad I'm moving across the state in July, so that won't be happening. I really don't care that much though. nobody there treats me like I'm a white belt, so it's no big deal to me what belt I'm wearing.

Did you hurt your back being stacked? As an older grappler (95Kilos) I often fight much bigger guys and I learned not to let anyone stack me----ever. I hurt my back the first year grappling and it was months in recovery. Now I make sure never to be stacked. It certainly has changed my game and for the better.

How do you stop people from stacking you?
I ask as i'm thinking about doing BJJ over the summer whilst my Judo club is closed

Generally, preventing stacking comes in four forms: shoulder walking, leg pummelling, ridged body action and allowing the pass. In shoulder walking you use your shoulders to walk your body away from the stacking action. Leg pummelling requires one's pummel the legs back inside the opponent's arms (typically used in conjunction with shoulder walking) again to remove the stacking action.   Ridged body is used with passing over the legs, where you tighten your whole core and legs (make yourself ridged) and use tori's passing action to help you roll over your shoulder into a turtle position, then recover guard immediately. Finally, the last way is to avoid the stack is let the tori pass and deal with the consequences of the pass or let if your attempting a submission and are getting stacked let it go.

Is this shoulder walking ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ML3tR0jWiEE

Yes that is certainly one version.

Genetic, do you know the wall walking drill?

Just thought i'd share my experiance of the BJJ class I took the other night.
The full write up is on my blog here http://stuartjudo.blogspot.be/2013/08/survival-bjj-nova-forca_1.html

We went through the normal warm up which lasted approximately 25 minutes before Ricardo went on to show us what would be the only technique of the night, a standing guard pass. We drilled this for about 25-30 minutes, both left and right sides. I like the fact that you really get to drill a technique in BJJ. It means that when you leave the class you don’t forget what you’ve been told and can immediately add it to your repertoire. This is probably the reason that it takes so long to grade in BJJ, with the average time spent between starting and getting your first belt (blue) being somewhere between 1 and 3 years, depending on how often you train.

Techniques aside I think the quickest way of learning is to put things in to practice and roll and that’s what we did next for the last 30 minutes of class.

Being a white belt I know my main aim is survival and my first sparring partner was a purple belt so I was expecting to do anything but try and survive. I think he must have been working on a particular move and was maybe trying to work on some specific weakness in his game because he didn’t submit once in our 3 minute roll. Yes I was being constantly attacked and if it was Judo I would have been pinned on numerous occasions but I was pleased that I was able to come out of it still relatively intact and not gassed.

My next roll was with Ryan, who used to train Judo at DJC but due to personal reasons wasn’t able to train anymore. However he has been doing BJJ for a number of years now and is therefore an experienced Blue belt. This roll was quite similar to my last roll. I defended for my life and wasn’t submitted. Perhaps my Newaza doesn’t suck as much as I think it does!

My third roll was against Tim, the orange belt Judoka from Guildford. Tim is fairly small in stature, well compared to me he is, but he put up a hell of a fight. I pulled guard and thought that I should be able to sweep him but he clearly has some ground skills and controlled my legs whilst he tried to pass my guard. I eventually managed to get him in my guard and slapped on a triangle. He did quite well at defending this until I finally managed to get a good tight squeeze and he tapped. When re restarted I did manage to take his back and got my hooks. I was looking for a gi choke but his gi was so baggy that I found it hard to do this and so he hung on in there until the 3 minutes were up.

My last roll was against another blue belt and again it was similar to my other rolls against the BJJ guys where I just tried to not be submitted. Unfortunately this time, with him in the north south position (I think) he managed to secure an Americana and I tapped.

Great post (as usual) Stu.

One thing I don't get: how come we don't drill, drill, and re-drill this in Judo? Why are we always "left to figure it out?" I guess that works for some people but not for me, certainly!

I really feel as though our sport could do with aping BJJ.

NYCNewbie wrote:Great post (as usual) Stu.

One thing I don't get: how come we don't drill, drill, and re-drill this in Judo?  Why are we always "left to figure it out?"  I guess that works for some people but not for me, certainly!

I really feel as though our sport could do with aping BJJ.

I think this varies.

At the dojo where I trained as a teenager each training session we did between 100-400 uchikomi. We usually spent about the same time drilling ne-waza techniques, but in sets of 3.

I always practiced one attack from guard, one attack passing guard and one turn-over (although we didn't call it "guard" back then), with senior judoka offering plenty of technical detail and corrections for each.

jkw wrote:

NYCNewbie wrote:Great post (as usual) Stu.

One thing I don't get: how come we don't drill, drill, and re-drill this in Judo?  Why are we always "left to figure it out?"  I guess that works for some people but not for me, certainly!

I really feel as though our sport could do with aping BJJ.

I think this varies.

At the dojo where I trained as a teenager each training session we did between 100-400 uchikomi. We usually spent about the same time drilling ne-waza techniques, but in sets of 3.

I always practiced one attack from guard, one attack passing guard and one turn-over (although we didn't call it "guard" back then), with senior judoka offering plenty of technical detail and corrections for each.

Wow- not at my dojo. We do uchikomi, yes- but it's not very structured, certainly not nearly as detail oriented as my BJJ class. Not even close.

NYCNewbie wrote:Great post (as usual) Stu.

One thing I don't get: how come we don't drill, drill, and re-drill this in Judo?  Why are we always "left to figure it out?"  I guess that works for some people but not for me, certainly!

I really feel as though our sport could do with aping BJJ.

I have not come across too many instructors who teach with drills. I am a fan of drills but of course a drill is only as good as the principle one is trying to teach. I've seen instructors have students to drills that I never really felt do anything other than make someone tired. Speed uchikomi drills are a good example. I've not gained anything of value by doing speed uchikomi drills in my opinion. I'm only speaking for me and not for everyone else. When I do uchikomi the entry is as fast as I can but the repeated speed entry where most everyone's entry looks like rubbish after the 10th one has not been valuable to me simply because that's not how I actually do Judo. Most drills I have done under one of my instructors were valuable to me because I drilled realistic movements and such. Some other drills left me scratching my head saying, "I'd never actually do that..."

The whole "figuring it out" probably works much better for kids than it does for adults. The instructor I was with the longest actually taught instead of demonstrated. Most instructors I've seen don't really instruct. They demonstrate. I'm not saying that's bad. For the average student (i.e. younger than 18) that method is likely a better way and since many clubs have large classes it's the only way to teach.

Dave R. wrote:

NYCNewbie wrote:Great post (as usual) Stu.

One thing I don't get: how come we don't drill, drill, and re-drill this in Judo?  Why are we always "left to figure it out?"  I guess that works for some people but not for me, certainly!

I really feel as though our sport could do with aping BJJ.

Most drills I have done under one of my instructors were valuable to me because I drilled realistic movements and such.  Some other drills left me scratching my head saying, "I'd never actually do that..."

The same will hold true of bjj, some drills will leave you scratching your head. Not every will be practicality for you and your game: inverted guards? How about berimbolo? cartwheel passes? Anything from eddie bravo? Moves that require flexible shoulders or extreme back flexibility? I say again not everything taught, or drilled in bjj will be practical for you and most likely soon forgotten. Drilled or not.