What happened to the +/-?

Although I would prefer a system like facebook which only allows likes and no dislikes, I can't see how someone expressing a +/- opinion on a post can be accused of abuse any more than if they wrote a comment disagreeing with the post or criticizing the poster. A minus sign cannot be used by a troll, and I'd rather see the minus than someone writing that you are a jerk. It is a tool that allows members to express themselves -- that's all.

I think Carlo might have cracked it and found a way to have a "thumbs up" button instead of a +/-

Stay tuned.

Evaluations that lead to improvement of someone's quality of teaching are useful, but to achieve that goal need to fulfill some criteria.

Quicksilver wrote:Just as a suggestion; perhaps there should be a '+' option but not a '-' one? It is after all perfectly reasonable to agree with a post but not have any additional comments to make, in which case a '+' option is useful way to state this without cluttering the thread with unnecessary posts. However those that disagree with a given post enough to say so in some way presumably do, however, have some reason for this, in which case having to actually state it for discussion and debate rather than an anonymous '-' is both fair and potentially far more productive. This would negate the need for posts simply saying 'I agree' or '+ 1' (unless one wishes to make a specifically personal commendation) and would dramatically reduce the potential for abuse of the system.

+ vote.

Here are some reasons that i can not understand the whole situation:

- who goes to see if their post was marked "+/-" aside from seeing it because of reading the next post?
- why would it bother anyone if your post is marked "-" as it could be any number of reasons? And if the person can't come out and say it, it really shouldn't bother you
- it seems to me that there is a double standard of "it's accepted to be anonymous with one's screen name, but not with one's "-" signs.
- setting up a "thumbs up" only system has it own draw backs --- it seems to me to be an ego gratifying system only.

I can understand that the system can be abused, but without it being tallied, it's just one "+/-" on a post. And if someone were to take the time togo through the entire forum to hunt someone to give them all "-", wouldn't everyone see right through that because we are basing our oppinion of posters on the content of their posts, not on their tallied "+/-"?

This is an interesting debate/conversation! Please note that since we do not have a "+/-" system, i have crammed as many "+/-" into my post as possible! Also please note that there are way more "-" than "+" and it doesn't bother me... then again...

heikojr

I am staggered at the number of posts and energy people have put in to discussing this pathetic little topic!

ThePieman wrote:

Stacey wrote:

Dave R. wrote:

heikojr wrote:Did i miss something?

heikojr

I noticed the same thing yesterday. I'm not in favor of the removal but I can understand why it was done especially if people just use it as a means to voice displeasure with a poster instead of the content. A lot of times if I agreed with a post I would just give a + instead of writing an actual reply expressing agreement.

++

∞

----

Jonesy wrote:I am staggered at the number of posts and energy people have put in to discussing this pathetic little topic!

---

I would give many posts + and none - but I can't.

Why is this? I fell that I have strong yes sentiment on many of the opinions voiced. But just writing "I agreee with heikojr" does not appeal to me. Somehow it does not seem worthy of posting.

Hi Mike,
Hi Dave

Trolls did immense damage to the old JF. Never underestimate a troll. If we don't have the systems they can abuse then that greatly limits the damage a troll can do. Now rather than just randomly pass -'s the troll would have to reply and become seen for that they are.

The problem is trolls do not react to valid arguements, see the 3 levels of judo thread
The -ve is a good way of marking a troll post (if enough posters do it) so inexperienced members know that they should be wary when reading that post.

Misuse of the system for mobbing is very unlikely unless you are VERY unpopular in certain circles, f.e. Mr Goldmann. since we all only have one chance to mark a post - or +ve.

TBH where has the system been abused on this new forum, how often and by how many users?
I have not beenn aware of it and I am predestined to get minuses botoh, I don't care because this is only the internet and not real life

I am staggered at the number of posts and energy people have put in to discussing this pathetic little topic!

Maybe people don't think it is a pathetic little topic, especially when the members were asked and a clear majority were infavour of the system, agreement was reached and then without warning the wishes of the majority were just sh@t upon.


atb

sodo

sodo wrote:
Maybe people don't think it is a pathetic little topic, especially when the members were asked and a clear majority were infavour of the system, agreement was reached and then without warning the wishes of the majority were just sh@t upon.

Why do you think that the wishes of the majority are relevant? Do you think the majority wanted Judo Sensei to sell the old JFK to a commercial company? Do you think that those who provided the unique and differentiating content of the JF (which was what made it successful) were asked - and it was not Judo Sensei who provided that? Let Carlo run this as he sees fit.......

Jonesy wrote:I am staggered at the number of posts and energy people have put in to discussing this pathetic little topic!

Well, on the surface yes, this may well seem a pretty insignificant issue. But it does carry broader connotations that even if not of huge immediate importance are surely at least a little interesting? Perhaps what you say has an element of truth (and I'll preface the rest of this post with that acknowledgement) but I find it interesting to debate the matter none the less.

heikojr wrote:Here are some reasons that i can not understand the whole situation:

- who goes to see if their post was marked "+/-" aside from seeing it because of reading the next post?
- why would it bother anyone if your post is marked "-" as it could be any number of reasons? And if the person can't come out and say it, it really shouldn't bother you
- it seems to me that there is a double standard of "it's accepted to be anonymous with one's screen name, but not with one's "-" signs.
- setting up a "thumbs up" only system has it own draw backs --- it seems to me to be an ego gratifying system only.

I can understand that the system can be abused, but without it being tallied, it's just one "+/-" on a post. And if someone were to take the time togo through the entire forum to hunt someone to give them all "-", wouldn't everyone see right through that because we are basing our oppinion of posters on the content of their posts, not on their tallied "+/-"?

This is an interesting debate/conversation! Please note that since we do not have a "+/-" system, i have crammed as many "+/-" into my post as possible! Also please note that there are way more "-" than "+" and it doesn't bother me... then again...

heikojr

Setting aside the matter of people being upset because a post gets an inordinate amount of negative votes (which would perhaps be more than a little irrational) and the abuse issue (regarding which you make good points, though one vote is still a very significant portion of the total votes most posts receive) the purpose of a forum is on its very most basic level the exchange of information and hopefully, to learn from the discussions and debates that result from this. Simply agreeing with a post may or may not be of significance but in terms of raw data it does not nessecarily carry any implication of information/perspectives/opinions/etc -data- not already mentioned in the discussion; disagreement by its very nature does. The reason for the disagreement may be anything from highly sophisticated to petty and irrational but unless the disagree-er expounds upon why they disagree this is much more difficult to make a critical analysis of and judgment of some kind about. Though I agree that placing huge a amount of significance on '+' or '-' votes may well be foolish but for the majority of people it does influence how they view a post- though in varying directions and possibly only to a tiny degree. It is also useful for the person posting something and others in terms of evaluating the response others have to a post to judge this not merely by yea or nay, but why (this does also applies to agreement but far more to disagreement for the earlier stated reasons). And then, once someone states their dissagreement, others can always either '+' that post or disagree in their turn. For a range of reasons but particularly since it is discourse that is a fantastic tool for formulating and developing ideas and arguments and learning from others, public but unclassified disagreement is of extremely limited use to the development of the discussion and the benefit of its observers and contributors.

This doesn't of course give a single holistic argument for the absence of the '-' option in which large holes can't be poked, I acknowledge that. but it may be something to take into account; particularly since we can't hope for a perfect solution, only the one with the least disadvantages?

sodo wrote:
TBH where has the system been abused on this new forum, how often and by how many users?
I have not beenn aware of it and I am predesdind to get minuses botoh, I don't care because this is only the internet and not real life

Forgive me for cutting out so much of your post, it was just this one bit on which I would comment; in what way is the internet not real life? It is a different lens through which to view it, perhaps, but I do not think that makes the people with whom you are conversing, nor their attitudes, ideas or actions, nor the world in which these exist, nor the implications of these, any less 'real'...?

Regards,

-Q

Hi Jonesy,

Why do you think that the wishes of the majority are relevant? Do you think the majority wanted Judo Sensei to sell the old JFK to a commercial company?

You seem to be confusing the ability to change something and the right to complain about it, they are two different things. f.e I do not have the ablity to move the Israeli settlers in Gazza but I sure as hell have the right to complain about it.

As for the wishes of the majority not being relevant, why then start a poll asking the members opinions and claiming you want to give the members what THEY want if the owners/mods etc have no intention of sticking to it That is called "taking the p/ss"

Do you think the majority wanted Judo Sensei to sell the old JFK to a commercial company?

I do not think that anybody even thought about whether Judosenei owned the JF or not, never mind care about it and people only cared that he sold it after it started to go down hill, if the new owbners had done as the posters wanted then we would all still be there

Do you think that those who provided the unique and differentiating content of the JF (which was what made it successful) were asked -

Yes and p/ßß them of by ignoring their wishes and you get the same results as Enzoic had with JF.

and it was not Judo Sensei who provided that?

So what difference didi it make that Judosensei sold the forum then?

Let Carlo run this as he sees fit.......

Sure he can run it as he see's fit, that does not mean that

i) I have to agree with him
ii) I have to keep quiet when I disagree with him
II) I have no right complain when I feel that myself and other members are having the urine extracted.

We have already lost one forum because the wishes of the members were ignored, maybe the owner/mods should think twice before making the same mistakes again here.

atb

sodo

Perhaps a time for some perspective and reflection?

Can this forum run without the +- system? Will a poster refrain from posting because there is no +-system?

If it can function, leave the forum as it was in the past and as it is now.

If the forum cannot exist without the +- system then it should and must be used.

Mike

Perhaps a time for some perspective and reflection?

Can this forum run WITH the +- system? Will a poster refrain from posting because there is a +-system?

If it can function, leave the forum as it was in the past.

:2UP:

atb

sodo

Jonesy wrote:I am staggered at the number of posts and energy people have put in to discussing this pathetic little topic!

I understand your point. I have the ability to see where you are coming from. Many don't and to that end such 'to the point one liners' can offend. It could be commented that what you find trivia others don't and it is perhaps unwise for you to stifle a debate or hold yourself judge of what a number of posters find relevant? I know you don't consider yourself here to make friends, I understand you. others will not.

There was a post here some time ago where a member commented that we are at the performing stages of the Tucker theory. Vis; forming, storming, norming and performing. I knew then that the poster was being highly optimistic!

This is a new group. We, as a collective of judoka, are still forming and storming. We have yet to perform and are some way away from performing. Time is needed for us to function as a group. I am an absolute believer in education. Despite my profession and vocation I am at heart, an educationalist. I value learning, I crave for learning. I also enjoy teaching and give teaching my all.

The only way to teach and learn is through debate and social intercourse with as many varied cultures and belief systems as possible. To be challenged is a compliment not an insult. If I write a post that displeases a poster because they disagree with its content I cannot learn by receiving a red minus. I can and do learn by a poster honouring me with a challenging reply.

Since becoming a member of a forum my attitudes toward many things have changed. One of the greatest lessons I learned was the written form of communication is severely limited as NVC cannot be observed. Again I can but suggest that we communicate and challenge each others post with replies.

Mike

sodo wrote:

Perhaps a time for some perspective and reflection?

Can this forum run WITH the +- system? Will a poster refrain from posting because there is a +-system?

If it can function, leave the forum as it was in the past.

:2UP:

atb

sodo

Behave yourself and quote me correctly

How are you doing?

Mike

Lets put this all into perspective

The forum members were asked if they wanted some form of qualification system for posts, the result was YES the majority of posters wanted it. A consensus was reached.

ONE person has recieved a -ve on a post and nobody knows why It is automatically assumed that the sysrtem is being massively abused (by one person)

Without further comment the agreed system was ditched

When questions are asked we are told to STFU, we have nothing say and what the majority want is just pathetic and irrelevant


And somebody thinks this is a good way to run the forum

ohh brother

atb

sodo

Hanon wrote:

sodo wrote:

Perhaps a time for some perspective and reflection?

Can this forum run WITH the +- system? Will a poster refrain from posting because there is a +-system?

If it can function, leave the forum as it was in the past.

:2UP:

atb

sodo

Behave yourself and quote me correctly

How are you doing?

Mike

I was just correcting your mistakes, HONEST

atb

sodo

sodo wrote:Lets put this all into perspective

The forum members were asked if they wanted some form of qualification system for posts, the result was YES the majority of posters wanted it. A consensus was reached.

ONE person has recieved a -ve on a post and nobody knows why It is automatically assumed that the sysrtem is being massively abused (by one person)

Without further comment the agreed system was ditched

When questions are asked we are told to STFU, we have nothing say and what the majority want is just pathetic and irrelevant


And somebody thinks this is a good way to run the forum

ohh brother

atb

sodo

That could well be one of the sort of posts that we all make that one day comes back and bites us in the butt.

You are incorrect with your information. This has nothing at all to do with one post and one poster, not at all.

I am also now not taking my own advise.

If the +- is a system that the forum cannot function without it MUST be implemented.

Mike

Hanon wrote:

sodo wrote:Lets put this all into perspective

The forum members were asked if they wanted some form of qualification system for posts, the result was YES the majority of posters wanted it. A consensus was reached.

ONE person has recieved a -ve on a post and nobody knows why It is automatically assumed that the sysrtem is being massively abused (by one person)

Without further comment the agreed system was ditched

When questions are asked we are told to STFU, we have nothing say and what the majority want is just pathetic and irrelevant


And somebody thinks this is a good way to run the forum

ohh brother

atb

sodo

That could well be one of the sort of posts that we all make that one day comes back and bites us in the butt.

You are incorrect with your information. This has nothing at all to do with one post and one poster, not at all.

I am also now not taking my own advise.

If the +- is a system that the forum cannot function without it MUST be implemented.

Mike

So how many cases of abuse are there then?

atb

sodo

sodo wrote:

Hanon wrote:

sodo wrote:Lets put this all into perspective

The forum members were asked if they wanted some form of qualification system for posts, the result was YES the majority of posters wanted it. A consensus was reached.

ONE person has recieved a -ve on a post and nobody knows why It is automatically assumed that the sysrtem is being massively abused (by one person)

Without further comment the agreed system was ditched

When questions are asked we are told to STFU, we have nothing say and what the majority want is just pathetic and irrelevant


And somebody thinks this is a good way to run the forum

ohh brother

atb

sodo

That could well be one of the sort of posts that we all make that one day comes back and bites us in the butt.

You are incorrect with your information. This has nothing at all to do with one post and one poster, not at all.

I am also now not taking my own advise.

If the +- is a system that the forum cannot function without it MUST be implemented.

Mike

So how many cases of abuse are there then?

atb

sodo

This would be a question for the administrator via, perhaps, PM?

I am sure you will agree there comes a point when public debate does more harm than good.

Mike

Jonesy wrote:I am staggered at the number of posts and energy people have put in to discussing this pathetic little topic!

Unnecessary roughness and unsportsmanlike conduct. Shido! Ouch.

Here is the perfect example for me! A "-" would have been fine! A minus would have shown displeasure in my post/topic. Instead, what Jonsey has written, i find much more offensive and hurtful.

And because i can not give a "-" to Jonsey's post, i must write it and continue discussing what he finds pathetic and little.

heikojr

Hanon wrote:

sodo wrote:

So how many cases of abuse are there then?

atb

sodo

This would be a question for the administrator via, perhaps, PM?

I am sure you will agree there comes a point when public debate does more harm than good.

Mike

How does one know if it is a case of abuse? I don't believe this! There could be any number of reasons a post is given a "-"! Yes, perhaps some people will abuse it.

And if this topics debate is doing more harm than good, please feel free to lock it (bust my chops) and then give me a "-"(that wont hurt my feelings at all!)!

heikojr

Hi Sodo,

I am sorry you feel so upset about this, it was not my intention.

Before I turned it off I had been getting PM's complaining about it's misuse. I did alter the system for a bit by making the system available only to people with a certain amount of posts. This was a short term fix and did not stop me receiving complaints.

I have been busy this week and didn't have time to deal with it, so the easy thing to do was turn it off until I found some time to come up with an alternative.

I have now sorted out a compromise which I am running past the admin team. With any luck it will be up and running later.

I very much doubt every one will be happy with it, and I'm sure that those who want to abuse it will, but hopefully it will not cause too much concern if it is abused.

atb

Carlo