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    New Judo v Jacket Wrestling Comparison

    Ricebale
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    • Post n°1

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    Post by Ricebale Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:20 am

    Hey,

    Just an observation on the new IJF rule set, I listened to this commentary and pretty much agree with the theories:

    http://judokafighter.com/new-judo-rules-breakdown-by-rhadi/

    In relation to the tachi-waza:

    In most Jacket Wrestling styles, such as Kuresh, Gouren and Cornish and belt wrestling styles such as Schwingen, Bokh and Ssirium there is a single grip and then throw situation, I see a similarity to this in the new rules.

    In the Jacket styles trips are usually cool but touching the legs is prohibited, I find this ironic as Judo supplanted (in Europe) the native styles but it seems Judo is now emulating the play of those styles

    I agree the rules should make for great throws as most of the Jacket Wrestling styles get great throws due to this type of rule set, should be fun.

    Just some thoughts, cheers

    Here's a random clip containing lutte canarias and gouren for an example.



    Last edited by Ricebale on Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:28 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Addition of video)
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    Dutch Budo
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    • Post n°2

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    Post by Dutch Budo Sun Jan 06, 2013 8:18 pm

    Theres no lucha canaria in that video my friend.

    Also, I dont think its a good development at all. The styles you mentioned and in the video are games, where judo is supposed to be a martial art. So these rules are turning judo more and more into a game. They are also sucking the creativity out of the game. Where you had many different effective strategies in the past, only a few will work now with the grip restrictions and limited amount of throws you can use, lets just skip ne waza as a whole too.
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    Ricebale
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    Post by Ricebale Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:48 pm

    Hey Dutch,

    Yep, I meant a canarias guy v a Brittany guy, I really should avoid foreign languages Smile

    I don't disagree that those styles are games. In fact I participate and promote some of them, we market them as games, next big one for us is Cornish Wrestling which is at a festival, will be the centre event.

    Back to topic, after reading the changes etc I could not help but see the similarities between these games and IJF judo. In the commentary vid Rhadi states the IJF new rules are not Judo but some type of sport whîch concurs to a degree with my observations I think.

    Here's a clip of Cornish Wrasslin to illustrate my point further


    Cheers
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    • Post n°4

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    Post by Guest Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:49 am

    I like the new grip fighting rules - hopefully it will reduce idiotic pattacake Judo. Rhadis comments were funny on that video though I admit.
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    Post by Ricebale Mon Jan 07, 2013 9:17 am

    I'm very interested in how the grips will go.

    On observation in all the folk wrestling styles it is rare that a match goes for more than 30-50 seconds without a throw or counter scoring, this is due to the compulsory grip rules as both persons are in danger from the get go. In these styles the person with the better grip knowledge and balance gets first attack and usually wins the point.

    Styles like Sambo tend to have a lot of minor points scores same as freestyle wrestling due to the open play rule set. They do however have a lot of attacks due to this and action is pretty constant.

    Greco has very few scoring throws in most matches due to the prohibition on leg touching and defensive nature if the gripping but also does get a minority of very big throws due to the no leg touch rule.

    In context I think the IJF will get Judo like throws from this rule change. Probably the best way to do this IMO is at international comps to start funding weaker countries to send more athletes, this would ensure spectacular ippons due to the skill differential.

    Cheers
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    Post by Guest Mon Jan 07, 2013 11:23 am

    Ricebale wrote:Hey Dutch,



    Here's a clip of Cornish Wrasslin to illustrate my point further


    Cheers

    Ah yes but the current Cornish wrestling champ is also a Judo champ who decided to enter a Cornish wrestling comptition. In fact a lot of Cornish wrestlers are really annoyed with Judo people coming in and taking over - mainly because some of their techniques are getting lost. They have an amazing throw where you roll someone over your knee - never seen it in anything else. Source : I used to live in Kernow.
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    Post by Ricebale Mon Jan 07, 2013 12:49 pm

    Dew wrote:
    Ricebale wrote:Hey Dutch,



    Here's a clip of Cornish Wrasslin to illustrate my point further


    Cheers

    Ah yes but the current Cornish wrestling champ is also a Judo champ who decided to enter a Cornish wrestling comptition. In fact a lot of Cornish wrestlers are really annoyed with Judo people coming in and taking over - mainly because some of their techniques are getting lost. They have an amazing throw where you roll someone over your knee - never seen it in anything else. Source : I used to live in Kernow.

    That doesn't surprise me given the distribution of Judoka in the UK. The Cirnish will then be forced to pull their socks up!

    A similar reverse analogy could be made with Georgian Chiboda and Judo, the Georgian Folk Wrestlers steal judo gold regularly.

    The events we hold here in Aus are basically other stylists competing under folk rules. I suppose this aspect is what I was saying about the like styles may result in uncomfortable comparisons being made for purists.
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    Dutch Budo
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    Post by Dutch Budo Tue Jan 08, 2013 3:20 am

    Ricebale wrote:Hey Dutch,

    Yep, I meant a canarias guy v a Brittany guy, I really should avoid foreign languages Smile

    I don't disagree that those styles are games. In fact I participate and promote some of them, we market them as games, next big one for us is Cornish Wrestling which is at a festival, will be the centre event.

    Back to topic, after reading the changes etc I could not help but see the similarities between these games and IJF judo. In the commentary vid Rhadi states the IJF new rules are not Judo but some type of sport whîch concurs to a degree with my observations I think.

    Here's a clip of Cornish Wrasslin to illustrate my point further


    Cheers

    No disrespect meant towards games like that. Heck I love to look at basketball and used to play pingpong quite avidly. And the wrestling definitely requires skill, close to judo throwing. But games arent what Judo´s original goal was. We seem to be going further and further away from it. If I were to pick a martial arts nowadays instead of when I was younger I would probably not go into judo, because the boring fights. But well I was born and raised a judo guy and Ill tell my grandchildren about the day you could still do armlocks in judo and you actually had to hold down a guy for 30 seconds before ippon (then called full point to give judo a more international character).
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    Post by nomoremondays Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:11 am

    Dutch Budo wrote:If I were to pick a martial arts nowadays instead of when I was younger I would probably not go into judo, because the boring fights.

    I personally think all martial arts without striking are boring to watch.
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    genetic judoka
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    Post by genetic judoka Tue Jan 08, 2013 4:20 am

    Dutch Budo wrote:and used to play pingpong quite avidly.

    another ponger/judoka huh? I'm officially issuing the challenge. if you ever come to FL or I ever make it to the netherlands, we need to find a table, because it's going down!
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    Post by Dutch Budo Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:44 am

    genetic judoka wrote:
    Dutch Budo wrote:and used to play pingpong quite avidly.

    another ponger/judoka huh? I'm officially issuing the challenge. if you ever come to FL or I ever make it to the netherlands, we need to find a table, because it's going down!

    Lol its been like 15 years ago, but I still rock at beer pong though haha.
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    Post by Dutch Budo Tue Jan 08, 2013 5:45 am

    nomoremondays wrote:
    Dutch Budo wrote:If I were to pick a martial arts nowadays instead of when I was younger I would probably not go into judo, because the boring fights.

    I personally think all martial arts without striking are boring to watch.

    Well thats just a matter of opinion, I really loved watching freestyle wrestling at the latest olympics for instance. Lots of action!
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    • Post n°13

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    Post by Ricebale Tue Jan 08, 2013 7:59 am

    Dutch Budo wrote:No disrespect meant towards games like that. Heck I love to look at basketball and used to play pingpong quite avidly. And the wrestling definitely requires skill, close to judo throwing. But games arent what Judo´s original goal was. We seem to be going further and further away from it. If I were to pick a martial arts nowadays instead of when I was younger I would probably not go into judo, because the boring fights. But well I was born and raised a judo guy and Ill tell my grandchildren about the day you could still do armlocks in judo and you actually had to hold down a guy for 30 seconds before ippon (then called full point to give judo a more international character).

    Hey dude, I agree they are games or extensions of culture, the idea of most of these games was to give entertainment at cultural gatherings and/or to provide a form of physical testing for young men outside of fighting and warfare.

    As an example of game, I have just organised a paid trip for about 20 people to compete at a celtic festival in one of our southern states, the whole purpose os to gather for the entertainment of the attendees, some 30k people. Should be a blast with music, dance, wrestling, prize money and beer. The fact it is a game does not detract from it, rather makes participation easier in some ways as everyone will have good spirits.

    Perhaps Judo (or its precursor) was a form of military or fighting training in itself which would make it a different beast by definition.

    As for the laments about where Judo has gone my mates who have been in Judo since kids feel similar, what is lost usually can never be found in the same way again, here is a little song which I dedicate to them:



    Cheers Wink
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    nomoremondays
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    Post by nomoremondays Wed Jan 09, 2013 1:57 pm

    Dutch Budo wrote:
    Well thats just a matter of opinion,

    exactly what i was trying to imply :-)

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    Post by Davaro Wed Jan 09, 2013 7:29 pm

    Has anyone here ever watched blind guys doing judo? Where you get them together, take a grip and start?

    I like to do this with novice judoka and it certainly assists in getting them ready for shiai.

    Its very good judo to watch. As there is no grip-fighting pe se, all the "patter-cake" stuff is gone and they go at it right from the get-go.

    Could be an idea to pursue?
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    Post by genetic judoka Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:53 am

    Dutch Budo wrote:
    genetic judoka wrote:
    Dutch Budo wrote:and used to play pingpong quite avidly.

    another ponger/judoka huh? I'm officially issuing the challenge. if you ever come to FL or I ever make it to the netherlands, we need to find a table, because it's going down!

    Lol its been like 15 years ago, but I still rock at beer pong though haha.

    you should consider picking it back up. I find it's among the best indirect training methods for developing the mental focus needed in shiai. I'm pretty good at beer pong, depending on the ruleset used, my arms are ridiculously long, so the running joke is that I slam dunk my beer pong shots.
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    Post by JudoStu Thu Jan 10, 2013 1:58 am

    genetic judoka wrote:
    Dutch Budo wrote:and used to play pingpong quite avidly.

    another ponger/judoka huh? I'm officially issuing the challenge. if you ever come to FL or I ever make it to the netherlands, we need to find a table, because it's going down!

    And if either of you are ever in the UK i'll throw my bat in to the ring and challenge you both. Smile
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    Post by Davaro Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:08 am

    This forum always has these Judo vs Ping Pong debates... whatever happened to the good old days where we used to fight about BJJ What a Face
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    Post by genetic judoka Thu Jan 10, 2013 2:16 am

    JudoStu wrote:
    genetic judoka wrote:
    Dutch Budo wrote:and used to play pingpong quite avidly.

    another ponger/judoka huh? I'm officially issuing the challenge. if you ever come to FL or I ever make it to the netherlands, we need to find a table, because it's going down!

    And if either of you are ever in the UK i'll throw my bat in to the ring and challenge you both. Smile
    New Judo v Jacket Wrestling Comparison Challenge-accepted
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    Post by JudoStu Thu Jan 10, 2013 3:42 am

    Davaro wrote:This forum always has these Judo vs Ping Pong debates... whatever happened to the good old days where we used to fight about BJJ What a Face

    I suck at Judo and BJJ for that matter, but Ping Pong is a different kettle of fish. Smile
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    Post by radzfman Sat Jan 19, 2013 8:39 am

    This is where IJF Judo is heading too.









    As oppose to what is was heading to prior to 2012. Take the gi off & IJF Judo



    With the new rules implemented in Paris in February this will favor a good number of the former Soviet block.

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    Post by Ben Reinhardt Wed Jan 23, 2013 9:04 am

    I'm all for lime green judogi, but I think a nice forest or medium olive would go better with my complexion.
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