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    Suwari-seoi ("drop-seoi-nage") and its dangers

    Cichorei Kano
    Cichorei Kano

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    Suwari-seoi ("drop-seoi-nage") and its dangers Empty Suwari-seoi ("drop-seoi-nage") and its dangers

    Post by Cichorei Kano on Tue Jun 10, 2014 2:35 pm

    In the past discussions have taken place on this and the old forum about suwari-seoi (popularly referred to in the US as "drop-seoi-nage) with regard to its danger for the knees. I have tried to explain that the throw is not at all dangerous or hard on the knees if you really know the throw, since you do not actually fall on your knees and throw, but the actual dropping on the knees is arrested by the counter weight of the opponent and the trajectory of the throw. Only when one does not properly know the throw and actually falls on the knees before throwing, or without proper coordination is it hard on the knees. Unfortunately this is often the case, and younger people are more commonly at risk since they are at an earlier stage in thelr learning curve with on the average less coordination and technique. I have then also argued that true experimental evidence did not exist, and that I had discussed a research set-up with our biomechanists. Unfortunately, our biomechanists had absolutely not interest in judo. This is common since many biomechanicsts tend to stick only with their own little field of research, and judo biomechanics are difficult and likely would expose the academic limits of many biomechanists. So, I regretted not having carried out that research.

    I am, however, happy to say that a scholarly paper has recently appeared that did exactly that what I said needed to be done. Unfortnately, the paper is in Spanish, but has an English abstract. The findings of the paper are very much what I predicted. Indeed, the impact on the knees is very serious ... in the unexperienced and the younger, but significantly decrease the more experience and the more advanced one is !

    So all in all, it isn't suwari-seoi that is dangerous, it is improperly performed suwari-seoi that is a risk for the knees !

    Find the full paper here:

    http://revpubli.unileon.es/ojs/index.php/artesmarciales/article/view/1176/952


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    Ryvai
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    Suwari-seoi ("drop-seoi-nage") and its dangers Empty Re: Suwari-seoi ("drop-seoi-nage") and its dangers

    Post by Ryvai on Tue Jun 10, 2014 9:30 pm

    Very nice article! We have had some discussions regarding suwari-seoi in our dojo aswell. Finaly some proper research on the subject. Thanks for posting Smile
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    Brainjutsu

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    Post by Brainjutsu on Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:01 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:

    So all in all, it isn't suwari-seoi that is dangerous, it is improperly performed suwari-seoi that is a risk for the knees !


    Isn't this the case with any technique? I don't think we need machines that go "bing" to figure that one out. After all, that's the reason for developing proper techniques.

    Seoi otoshi essentially evolved from the need to overcome opponent's resistance that regular seoi nage couldn't deal with. Thus, there should be no seoi otoshi when the opponent is standing tall.

    Unless, of course, throws are viewed as set of techniques absent from any relation to the opponent...as the case in the research.
    Ryvai
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    Post by Ryvai on Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:11 am

    Brainjutsu wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:

    So all in all, it isn't suwari-seoi that is dangerous, it is improperly performed suwari-seoi that is a risk for the knees !

    Isn't this the case with any technique? I don't think we need machines that go "bing" to figure that one out.

    I believe what he means is that suwari-seoi has an record of producing a lot of injuries compared to other techniques. The question is then; is the technique dangerous in itself? The answer is no, only when it is performed without correct technique. A sasae-tsurikomi-ashi can be performed incorrectly, and still not increase the risk of injury. Suwari-seoi however can badly hurt your knees if done incorrectly Smile
    Cichorei Kano
    Cichorei Kano

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    Post by Cichorei Kano on Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:17 am

    Brainjutsu wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:

    So all in all, it isn't suwari-seoi that is dangerous, it is improperly performed suwari-seoi that is a risk for the knees !


    Isn't this the case with any technique? I don't think we need machines that go "bing" to figure that one out. After all, that's the reason for developing proper techniques.

    Seoi otoshi essentially evolved from the need to overcome opponent's resistance that regular seoi nage couldn't deal with. Thus, there should be no seoi otoshi when the opponent is standing tall.

    Unless, of course, throws are viewed as set of techniques absent from any relation to the opponent...as the case in the research.

    Oftentimes people base views on mere opinions and anecdotal information, which is not generalizable and which may or may not be correct. Moreover, actually quantifying the impact is virtually impossible to guess. Quantification of an impact becomes important when relating to what forces are necessary to threaten the structural integrity of something. We know that driving a car into another car or concrete wall isn't the best thing to do, but without knowing what forces it generates it becomes difficult to reasonable build in safety measure that help protecting the driver and passenger against a certain impact.

    Please, note that the terminology used by the article is incorrect. What they are referring to is in fact suwari-seoi and not seoi-otoshi. Seoi-otoshi does not require going on the knees, as amply shown by expert Angelo Parisi or Inokuma Isao.


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    Suwari-seoi ("drop-seoi-nage") and its dangers Dry

    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
    Cichorei Kano
    Cichorei Kano

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    Post by Cichorei Kano on Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:26 am

    Ryvai wrote:
    Brainjutsu wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:

    So all in all, it isn't suwari-seoi that is dangerous, it is improperly performed suwari-seoi that is a risk for the knees !

    Isn't this the case with any technique? I don't think we need machines that go "bing" to figure that one out.

    I believe what he means is that suwari-seoi has an record of producing a lot of injuries compared to other techniques. The question is then; is the technique dangerous in itself? The answer is no, only when it is performed without correct technique. A sasae-tsurikomi-ashi can be performed incorrectly, and still not increase the risk of injury. Suwari-seoi however can badly hurt your knees if done incorrectly Smile

    The interesting thing is that this issue somehow seems to have been suddenly generated somewhere. When I competed, formal competition started at the age of cadettes, which was 11 or 12 years old, I can't exactly remember. There was no competition for younger kids. I have never ever seen or heard about such an injury in those days. My first confrontation was when I had a visitor from Peru who visited a club where I was the junior teacher (division 13-18 year olds) and I was teaching suwari-seoi, and his kid was in my group and he went all ballistic that I was teaching such a dangerous technique that would break the neck of everyone. It was such an incident that raised questions also about the role of the audience or parents during judo classes. If I recall very well the club's board prohibited the guy from attending the kids classes. Not just me, but also no one else, including the coach of the seniors division at that time had ever heard of such problems. I also had never hear the term "drop seoi-nage" until I first visited the US. To this day I have no explanation why suddenly after a certain date this technique is considered dangerous, whilst not before, apart from the fact that indeed at a certain date, people started competing from such a young age and at such a level of inexperience, that it is rather the unpreparedness for competition than the technique itself which is dangerous. If I would start competing in motorcycle races tomorrow it would be very dangerous not because motor cycle racing is very dangerous (it may be dangerous, I leave that up to you to decide), but mostly because I am totally inexperienced at motor races and would no doubt cause accidents in many situations in which an experienced motor cycle rider knows perfectly well how to react.


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    Suwari-seoi ("drop-seoi-nage") and its dangers Dry

    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
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    Brainjutsu

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    Post by Brainjutsu on Wed Jun 11, 2014 10:51 pm

    Every technique done incorrectly is dangerous. That’s why it’s incorrect. The issue is, of course, how we define it. In jujutsu, for example, where one considers falling on a hard surface, bad sasae is as harmful as any other throw because chances are you won’t be able to fight after it and eventually save your life. The fact that the mat in dojo makes a bad performance less painful is in that regard irrelevant. In judo, however, the situation is somewhat different which in return tends to stretch out the definition of a correct throw.

    In the presented paper, researchers calculated the impact of drop on knees in seoi otoshi among various judokas. Presumably, less impact would mean a more “correct” performance. The problem is that the actual object of their research wasn’t seoi otoshi but rather “a man dropping on his knees”. The two are not the same.

    A throw, the way it appears, is a product of interaction between desired effects, perceived opponent’s vulnerabilities and potential risks. In other words, it exists as such because of the circumstances not in spite of them. Goyko throws are ways of adjusting to the situation (according to the defined principles) not a collection of one-size-fits-all tricks.

    However, as it can be concluded from the pictures, the researchers obviously disregarded elements integral to seoi otoshi and reduced the whole idea to the knee drop. Anyone with little common sense knows that dropping to one’s knees hurts. The only way you want to go for it is if, of course, there is some way to reduce the impact. Yet, by having uke take a tall and unstable posture researchers created a setup that does exactly the opposite. The conclusion: precise measuring confirms that incorrect technique is bad kung fu?!

    The research measurements actually have no relation to judo technique called seoi otoshi considering that an incorrect technique is actually not a technique at all but a failure.
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    GregW

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    Post by GregW on Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:52 am

    Drop seoi used to be my tokui waza in my teen years. I was taught all the various safety aspects of it as I learned and I was a blue belt (nikyu) at the time. Like my own sensei, I don't teach it to anyone under the rank of sankyu and I won't let anyone use it in randori in my dojo who can't consistently do a normal seoinage. When we do practice it, I make sure uke is capable of taking a proper ukemi also. If anyone has any weaknesses in his or her ukemi, I don't let them be uke for the throw. As a result, most of my students have a really good normal seoinage. The few advanced ones I have know how to do a drop seoi, but it's generally not their tokui waza.

    In shiai, I see a lot of really bad drop seoinage attempts by young kids who are yellow belts and orange belts. That bothers me to some degree, but I just prep my juniors to take proper ukemi if they get thrown. Better to lose the match than risk injury. We're a recreational club, so we're not medal-driven.

    My preference nowadays is to teach seoi otoshi without letting the knees hit the ground. The entry is easier and allows tori more control. If it fails, it's easier to pivot into a follow-up attack.
    Ricebale
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    Post by Ricebale on Thu Jun 12, 2014 7:59 am

    This is one of those throws that favours a certain body type, if the legs are longer than the torso then I've notice the "drop" motion is very difficult and usually is done from the knees on ground, people with a longer torso are able to get into better position, seoi otoshi however favours the longer legs.

    just my observations on certain body types for certain throws.
    Q mystic
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    Post by Q mystic on Fri Jun 13, 2014 9:59 am

    I wonder if the knee damage isn't from the 'drop' of drop seoinage, as I agree with the above. I wonder if the damage (if any) is done exploding out of it. Drop seoinage has always been a favorite of mine and I don't recall being hurt often from the drop, even on many surfaces unless stuffed. Otherwise little contact, which makes me good =)..

    Recently tho, I have tweaked (a couple of times) my knee driving out of a seoinage from the drop position. But I'm older now and that may be it.

    I throw right with it and it's the outside of my right knee, but still deep in the knee.


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