Should I Switch to Judo?

jkw wrote:

Neil G wrote:You should find a different hobby.  Clearly you have no idea what judo is all about.

I think this kind of comment is a bit unhelpful. If someone in our dojo spoke to another member like this I would be disappointed.

Please bear in mind that you don't know anything about the person you are responding to - their age, life experience, psychological background - nothing. Yet in a real life conversation you would likely temper your response in light of those factors.

Given that you can't know someone's background, it is prudent to assume the worse (not that I'm arguing the case for Wandering WB - I'm simply making a point that from the point of view of the forum that person might have all kinds of learning, psychological and character difficulties that posters are unaware of and could - inadvertently - cause them harm).

If you disagree with a poster either debate or ignore.

I'm sure WB will be salivating over that comment, and this one.

Why don't you move WB's obvious trolling to off topic section. He's an obvious troll, and continues to post OT stuff in this and other threads.

Instead, you shush someone who actually does judo seriously, contributes seriously to this forum, and expresses a valid, non-insulting opinion.

Ben Reinhardt wrote:

Seriously, your trolling efforts are so amateurish it's getting silly.

I thought it was quite a good trolling effort - I genuinely though he was serious. Shame on me I can't believe I took the bait

I can see I am losing this argument to people who think judo is best compared to building aircraft... I'm sorry my opinion offends you Ben, but I am not trolling, and maybe, just maybe you should grow thicker skin.

WB - Not everyone who is "past their prime" in competitive judo is senile and in bad health as you seem to think. I kind of find that offensive. I started doing Judo in around 1980. Do the math.
I can still compete competitively against the senior men using guile and experience. Yes, the speed had kind of left me a bit but knowledge makes up for it a fair way.

Generally, the term Master in any given field is someone who really knows his field. Even more so, someone who has mastered the field. As I doubt you are aware, judo is funnily enough not all about shiai. Lets take someone like Teddy Riner. Sure, he would clean the mat with basically anyone on the planet but is he a judo master? Would he be able to give a lecture on uke's role in something like nage-no-kata? Each little nuance of this role? Maybe he can. Would he be able to do the same with Juno kata or koshiki no kata?

I use the above examples merely to make a point. Who knows, maybe Teddy CAN do this and if so, then perhaps he may be considered a "master"

Perhaps the word you should use is exponent. It is more suitable than what you perceive to be a master due to probable ignorance which is really no ones fault.

At the end of the day, its all about semantics

Us old crocks also take part in "masters" judo events. Wonder why they call it that?
Even in athletics, mountain-biking (which I also manage to do when I remember where I put my bike and how to pedal) have masters events above a certain age-group.

Go and google Mifumes old clips and you may see a master at work... The current world and Olympic champs, while brilliant at shiai are no judo masters.

Interesting post, Davaro.

Not everyone who is "past their prime" in competitive judo is senile and in bad health as you seem to think.

I don't claim that anywhere.

As I doubt you are aware, judo is funnily enough not all about shiai. Lets take someone like Teddy Riner.

I'm well aware I will never be a match for Teddy Riner. I am not saying you should compare yourself to someone like Riner, either or that you should train like he does. However, the guy is more than just a mountain of muscle if he won an Olympic medal. So yes, he is a master of judo even if there are some things about judo that he doesn't know.

I just want to point out that American Universities give out Master's degrees after six years of rigorous study, so we may as well take that as the standard. It's not like anyone expects you to work miracles on the job once you earn your Master's degree, and you are still not a doctor, let alone full professor. Mifune might have the title GrandMaster, not just Master. In BJJ Helio Gracie has that title.

Wandering WB wrote: So yes, he is a master of judo even if there are some things about judo that he doesn't know.

I would be so bold as to say (not too his face) that there are more than "some things" he does not know about when it comes to judo... but he is learning. He is far from a judo master if one takes all of judo into account.

But enough of that. I have made my point and we can agree to disagree on this if you wish as you will not convince me otherwise.

Have a good one mate

Gus wrote:

Ben Reinhardt wrote:

Seriously, your trolling efforts are so amateurish it's getting silly.

I thought it was quite a good trolling effort - I genuinely though he was serious. Shame on me I can't believe I took the bait

The mixing of troll and legit posts to set things up can be a subtle art. Or not so subtle many cases.

Wandering WB wrote:I can see I am losing this argument to people who think judo is best compared to building aircraft... I'm sorry my opinion offends you Ben, but I am not trolling, and maybe, just maybe you should grow thicker skin.

See, that's what's called a strawman...I never stated I was offended, so there you go setting up another one...

Ben

See, that's what's called a strawman...I never stated I was offended, so there you go setting up another one...

No, you are just moody as hell, offering me some heartfelt advice in one thread, saying my posts are nice to read and calling me a troll five minutes later.

The mixing of troll and legit posts to set things up can be a subtle art. Or not so subtle many cases.

Your definition of trolling is evidently, anything that rubs you the wrong way. People are entitled to have opinions you may find offensive or rude. Why? Because that's the way life works. However, if it was up to you, you would censor it all out. Learn to debate.

Mike

The point regarding 'master' is a moot one. There is no such title nor would any judoka of any rank refer to themselves as a 'master'. IF you do find a person who claims to be a master in judo, walk away as it would indicate the opposite.

To explain why 'mastery' cannot be applied in judo is simple. The techniques, the physical aspects of judo are tools. Those tools are used as a vehicle for the judoka to 'master' themselves, their character. In other words become the perfect human being. Obviously no such animal exists to that end mastery is not even used in the diction of judo.

This nonsense has taken this thread well of topic.

Mike

I agree that this has gotten off topic. That's no big deal, moderators could, perhaps create a separate thread. The point is not moot and there is such a title. Russians have been handing out Master of Sport in Judo for a long time, and such a title doesn't imply anything supernatural about the practitioner. I guess if I want you guys to address me as Master of Judo I just have to go to Russia and fulfill the requirements. It has nothing to do with becoming a perfect human being. I think you need to win the regionals or something of that nature. The question is only why does USA not follow Russia's lead in this.

Wandering WB wrote:Ben

See, that's what's called a strawman...I never stated I was offended, so there you go setting up another one...

No, you are just moody as hell, offering me some heartfelt advice in one thread, saying my posts are nice to read and calling me a troll five minutes later.

The mixing of troll and legit posts to set things up can be a subtle art. Or not so subtle many cases.

Your definition of trolling is evidently, anything that rubs you the wrong way. People are entitled to have opinions you may find offensive or rude. Why? Because that's the way life works. However, if it was up to you, you would censor it all out. Learn to debate.

I respond in kind to posts you make, WB.

I'd give you a Master of Irony for sure.

The post wasn't directed at you personally, yet that's the way you seem to have taken it. Very mature. Oh, and thanks for the Master of Irony.

Wandering WB wrote:I can see I am losing this argument to people who think judo is best compared to building aircraft... I'm sorry my opinion offends you Ben, but I am not trolling, and maybe, just maybe you should grow thicker skin.

OK so you are serious - I got the wrong idea. I dont agree with your opinion but respect your right to disagree - the way Judo is taught in many places these days it doesn't suprise me you hold this opinion. The airplane was an analogy which was pretty simple really - even if Judo was just about competition (which it isn't) , older people may not be able to win competitions but they can teach others to in a way many less experienced people cannot - in this regard Judo is about knowledge as much a physical prowess. However more pertinently - 90 percent of people you seeing where the red and white belts - that are higher than black belts - are older and would probably lose to most younger black belts in competition and even the younger Judoka who wear them are usually past their peak competition years . So you can see Judo awards the highest ranks not to those that are most able to win competitions - in fact a lady in her 90s was just awarded tenth Dan . Competition , Shia, is just one element of judo that has become over emphasised in contemporary settings- its worth taking a look at the history of Judo it will explain why you are getting such a negative reaction on this thread - a lot of people here really care about Judo and don't want to see it debased.

Also just because that senior guy can't win competitions anymore doesn't mean he can't execute his technique.

PS Gus - Fukuda-sensei has passwd away now, that story has been going around lately but it is several years old.

Different countries different ideas, I constructed a new cut roof on my property in bulgaria in a couple of days I became a maestro in the town .  In England I'm just a good joiner/carpenter.

As for titles some independents call them self selves hanshi, kyoshi, renshi. Personally I don't like being called sensei first names at my club nothing worse than three teaching and someone calls sensei and all three turn round.

As a junior my instructor ferried me around to competition's, squad training, training camps. As a senior I ferried pupils around nothing more pleasurable than coming home dropping of pupils with shed loads of trophies I remember on the journey home after a comp one pupil saying you are my weight it would have been me and you in the final and you would have thrown me in ten seconds why did you not enter? I responded its your time not mine done all that the others cheekily came in with you would have won the veterans event as well (old saying for master event over 35years) my response if I got injured who would drive you home. Then when you take them to grading event and they do well, particularly at achieving there dan grade you ouse pride when you remove your dan grade putting it around there waist. Then ten years on they bring their own children to the club to go through the same journey again.
I'm at the end of this journey now, some reading this will be at the start all I can say is its such a rewarding experience thats not to be missed.

In the kendo world renshi, kyoshi and hanshi are "shogo", basically teaching licenses you get after 6, 7 and 8 dan respectively. They aren't titles you would use in addressing someone any more than you would use someone's dan. We still call those guys just "sensei" or "name-sensei" when you need to differentiate.

Google search kyoshi paddy rightly or wrongly he is called on the mat kyoshi paddy

The airplane was an analogy which was pretty simple really
It's not even apples and oranges. Judo is a hand to hand fighting art with ancient roots where the most basic human instincts to dominate or submit are set loose within a limited rule set, airplanes are complex machines that were invented relatively recently. If you have to make such an inept comparison, chances are you are lost.

older people may not be able to win competitions but they can teach others to in a way many less experienced people cannot - in this regard Judo is about knowledge as much a physical prowess. However more pertinently - 90 percent of people you seeing where the red and white belts - that are higher than black belts - are older and would probably lose to most younger black belts in competition and even the younger Judoka who wear them are usually past their peak competition years .

I am not against recognizing the achievements of older people. It's really unfair how short human life is and how brief a person's competition years are. However... Well a few things.
1. The people who get the highest ranks in judo typically had to have medaled at the national, world or Olympic stage. So they did spend a lot of time and effort competing, even if they are past their peak. This doesn't shift judo's focus away from competition. An alternative is coaching people to championships. This is less common.
2. As you know it's ridiculous when high rank is understood to have a competition or sparring ability that isn't there. Perhaps coaching awards are more appropriate than the rank system. The competition for high ranks that have no real value besides prestige is idiotic and resembles a rat race. It's just not practical. Russians give out titles instead of dan ranks.

Wandering WB wrote:The airplane was an analogy which was pretty simple really
It's not even apples and oranges. Judo is a hand to hand fighting art with ancient roots where the most basic human instincts to dominate or submit are set loose within a limited rule set, airplanes are complex machines that were invented relatively recently. If you have to make such an inept comparison, chances are you are lost.

older people may not be able to win competitions but they can teach others to in a way many less experienced people cannot - in this regard Judo is about knowledge as much a physical prowess. However more pertinently - 90 percent of people you seeing where the red and white belts - that are higher than black belts - are older and would probably lose to most younger black belts in competition and even the younger Judoka who wear them are usually past their peak competition years .

I am not against recognizing the achievements of older people. It's really unfair how short human life is and how brief a person's competition years are. However... Well a few things.
1. The people who get the highest ranks in judo typically had to have medaled at the national, world or Olympic stage. So they did spend a lot of time and effort competing, even if they are past their peak. This doesn't shift judo's focus away from competition. An alternative is coaching people to championships. This is less common.
2. As you know it's ridiculous when high rank is understood to have a competition or sparring ability that isn't there. Perhaps coaching awards are more appropriate than the rank system. The competition for high ranks that have no real value besides prestige is idiotic and resembles a rat race. It's just not practical. Russians give out
titles instead of dan ranks.

So your arguing for change? Would that be because your a white belt in your mid twenties unlikely to achieve your "master" sandan grade before your in your late 30's and over the hill competition wise

ROFL. Stop trying to be so provocative. Medo, I could probably merit the rank now on my varied newaza expertise alone. Newaza is also a part of judo, my friend. At the very least, nidan. Rest easy, I have no serious intention of grading in that manner.
P.S.
It will not take me that long to learn tachiwaza to the level that I want, either.

Wandering WB wrote:ROFL. Stop trying to be so provocative. Medo, I could probably merit the rank now on my varied newaza expertise alone. Newaza is also a part of judo, my friend. At the very least, nidan. Rest easy, I have no serious intention of grading in that manner.
P.S.
It will not take me that long to learn tachiwaza to the level that I want, either.

Bless you, think you need to get yourself to a national tournament and test your skills there. Then report back. To be honest if you came to my club and started doing flying armbars and kanibasami as a white belt  you would be shown the door very quickly. The club you are training at must be very tolerant

I am not at your club, medo and if a part of you wants to be`my judo teacher I will have to pass on that priceless opportunity. The club I train at practices ALL of judo, including leg attacks and yes, sitting armbars an kani basami, both of which I have been doing for years and can perform without injuring someone. I will tell you what, though. Last practice I rolled with a judo greenbelt for three minutes. According to you, I am just a white belt, so I should have gotten tapped out or held down in osaekomi, right? We spent a lot of time talking and I am still just getting back into training, I feel like I have no wind. However, despite allowing him to always start from dominant positions such as mount, back control with the ankles crossed and knee on belly, I submitted him six times with juji gatame. Why don't you try that, letting your partner start out from a dominant position and tell us how you do. If you submit a greenbelt less than four times, perhaps it's time for you to retire and send me your black belt by mail so I can hang it on my wall.
I will go to a national tournament if I feel like it and only when I am properly prepared not when you ask me to do it on a whim. Nothing good happens when you go to competitions you are not prepared for.

Wandering WB wrote:I am not at your club, medo and if a part of you wants to be`my judo teacher I will have to pass on that priceless opportunity. The club I train at practices ALL of judo, including leg attacks and yes, sitting armbars an kani basami, both of which I have been doing for years and can perform without injuring someone. I will tell you what, though. Last practice I rolled with a judo greenbelt for three minutes. According to you, I am just a white belt, so I should have gotten tapped out or held down in osaekomi, right? We spent a lot of time talking and I am still just getting back into training, I feel like I have no wind. However, despite allowing him to always start from dominant positions such as mount, back control with the ankles crossed and knee on belly, I submitted him six times with juji gatame. Why don't you try that, letting your partner start out from a dominant position and tell us how you do. If you submit a greenbelt less than four times, perhaps it's time for you to retire and send me your black belt by mail so I can hang it on my wall.
I will go to a national tournament if I feel like it and only when I am properly prepared not when you ask me to do it on a whim. Nothing good happens when you go to competitions you are not prepared for.

O good god, you are a white belt by your own admission the idea that your can submit a green belt a few times really gives clear evidence that you are a sandan in newaza if then the club you now train at has say 10 competitive graded dan grades and you can hang with them using tachiwaza and newaza then just maybe then the instructor would grade you to the level you pertain to be.

Oh, I gave all the evidence that's really necessary for an expert to understand. I take it you don't want to participate in the experiment to see how you do against a greenbelt? ROFL. medo, I am not in a hurry to get graded. It can wait. You are graded and I don't want to be like you.
It's obvious you aren't very open minded. Just so you know, Roger Gracie trains in England with mostly BJJ blue belts around. In other words, people he could completely ragdoll and worse. I hope you've at least heard the name. If you don't know, google him. He still has the best jiujitsu and continues to improve.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQClTlJzuzU This is a second degree black belt test in BJJ. Roy Dean is an excellent teacher and practitioner. That translates to more than sandan in newaza. Notice it's mostly escapes to submissions against lower ranked resisting opponents.

Wandering WB wrote:Oh, I gave all the evidence that's really necessary for an expert to understand. I take it you don't want to participate in the experiment to see how you do against a greenbelt? ROFL. medo, I am not in a hurry to get graded. It can wait. You are graded and I don't want to be like you.
It's obvious you aren't very open minded. Just so you know, Roger Gracie trains in England with mostly BJJ blue belts around. In other words, people he could completely ragdoll and worse. I hope you've at least heard the name. If you don't know, google him. He still has the best jiujitsu and continues to improve.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQClTlJzuzU This is a second degree black belt test in BJJ. Roy Dean is an excellent teacher and practitioner. That translates to more than sandan in newaza. Notice it's mostly escapes to submissions against lower ranked resisting opponents.

This may have been true when he first came to England as there weren't that many high ranking BJJ'ers in England at that time but he did arrive with the likes of Braulia Estima and Felipe Souza, no slouches in BJJ themselves. Of course things have moved on a lot since then and England has many BJJ black belts now. Also Roger would have been able to train with his Dad, Mauricio Gomes, a 7th degree black and red belt.