Judo as educational system?

Hello Dear Judoka,

I've been spending a lot of time in the old (and now some time here) Forum as a only-reader.

Due to the topic in the thread "Experiences with the case of emergency " and Hanon statement (and some peoples subtext)

I try to teach the judo my sensei taught me, its kodokan judo through the lineage of the pre WW!! DNBK. My sensei didn't identify judo as a sport, a martial art nor hobby, to them judo was a vehicle for life

I want to ask the following (in a new thread, to avoid the emotional atmosphere of the other topic. If you want to merge them, feel free):

Why do you chose Judo as an educational system, if you refuse the fighting part of this martial art? In the end - and this out of question - judo is based on traditional "martial arts", that proofed their importance and their effectivity over decades and centuries.

What is your aim on practising judo for decades and to put so much effort in it? You learn kata that envolves throwing/groundwork/armlocks against an armed partner. Where is the educational momentum in this kind of training?

I don't need to say, that Judo is a nice tool for getting to know your own body, and to "cultivate" it. But isn't like swimming a nice tool to? Without the risk of harming your joints, your knees...?`On the other hand, how can judo cultivate your mind? Isn't like chess or go (with is posssibly more japanese then chess...) a straighter tool for people to think about the interaction of men? I mean something like chess would fit in your understanding of Jita Kyoei, if I interprete correctly...since you got to act with your partner as a intellectuel colloboration, but you don't need to risk to harm him in throwing-practise.

So to say...how can Judo be a efficient tool if it involves (fighting) methodes/parts, that you refuse? In my thinking there must have been a reason my Kano Shihan chose the jujutsu styles as a basis of his educational system, and if it's not the fighting part, what else?

It's totally accetable for me, that your perception of judo is different then mine (even though it seems that some people do have a problem with different perceptions on this topic), but I can't figure out, why in god's name Judo can be more effective than all those other possible activities (and so to say, judo must be the most effective way...otherwise it breaks his highest dictum of seiryoku zenyo).

My intention is not to offend you, but it's something I can't answer myself.

My kindest regards,

your big bald ogre

Hi Ogre,

Welcome, I usualy keep out of SD threads like the one you mentioned because they are mainly full of childish, missinformed BS.

Why do you chose Judo as an educational system, if you refuse the fighting part of this martial art? In the end - and this out of question - judo is based on traditional "martial arts", that proofed their importance and their effectivity over decades and centuries.

"Based" on is the important word , Judo was not developed as a fighting system but as a form of physical education (sport if you like) BASED on traditional martial arts BUT (very important "but")a much softer sytem and dangerous techniques were removed thus making Judo less effective and usefull as fighting (SD)system. Obviously a judoka with years of experience will have an advantage over an inexperienced opponent in a street fight but then again so would an experienced rugby player but that is neither the point of judo nor rugby.

What is your aim on practising judo for decades and to put so much effort in it? You learn kata that envolves throwing/groundwork/armlocks against an armed partner. Where is the educational momentum in this kind of training?

Good question! Physically you become stronger and fitter, emotionally, depending how you train you learn perseverance, dedication, how to deal with winning and losing, teamwork and dicipline, to name just a few. Intelectually you learn about anatomy, bio mechanics, mechanics, culture (Japanese), history, stratergy, tactics etc..

I don't need to say, that Judo is a nice tool for getting to know your own body, and to "cultivate" it. But isn't like swimming a nice tool to? Without the risk of harming your joints, your knees...?`On the other hand, how can judo cultivate your mind? Isn't like chess or go (with is posssibly more japanese then chess...) a straighter tool for people to think about the interaction of men? I mean something like chess would fit in your understanding of Jita Kyoei, if I interprete correctly...since you got to act with your partner as a intellectuel colloboration, but you don't need to risk to harm him in throwing-practise.

Judo does not have a monopoly on physical education, infact Kano was inspired/motivated in his thinking after a trip to Engalnd and Germany to study the European educational systems. He was impressed with the results obatained through sports like boxing, soccer and rugby in the schools.

So to say...how can Judo be a efficient tool if it involves (fighting) methodes/parts, that you refuse? In my thinking there must have been a reason my Kano Shihan chose the jujutsu styles as a basis of his educational system, and if it's not the fighting part, what else?

The fighting arts were what he knew, so it would be logical to base his system on them. You also have to remeber that Kanoi did not only introduce judo into the educational system bur baseball as well.
This would indicate that for him the actual art or sport was secondary to the principles of education.

It's totally accetable for me, that your perception of judo is different then mine (even though it seems that some people do have a problem with different perceptions on this topic), but I can't figure out, why in god's name Judo can be more effective than all those other possible activities (and so to say, judo must be the most effective way...otherwise it breaks his highest dictum of seiryoku zenyo).

Judo is not more effective than all those other possible activities
, it is more effective than some und less effective than others.

My intention is not to offend you, but it's something I can't answer myself.

Better worse people than you have tried to insult me an failed

atb

sodo

sodo wrote:

ogre wrote:So to say...how can Judo be a efficient tool if it involves (fighting) methods/parts, that you refuse? In my thinking there must have been a reason my Kano Shihan chose the jujutsu styles as a basis of his educational system, and if it's not the fighting part, what else?

The fighting arts were what he knew, so it would be logical to base his system on them. You also have to remember that Kano did not only introduce judo into the educational system but baseball as well.
This would indicate that for him the actual art or sport was secondary to the principles of education.

I wholeheartedly agree with this.

Some additional comments:
To me it even makes more sense to base an educational system on a physical activity than a more mental activity such as, say, chess.
I like to think of my activities on the tatami as learning about physics, tactics, psychology, and lots of other cool stuff via osmosis through (heavy) sweating. Can't see another activity that would have so many different things to offer if I was sitting quietly on my bum.

I've also heard randori in jûdô or kata in karate being likened to a form of "meditation while in motion", which is TBH a term I've come to use several times myself, as it somehow strikes a chord within me

Oh, and welcome ogre! Not a bad first post

(p.s. I took the liberty of correcting a few spelling mistakes in the quote sodo, hope you don't mind too much)

Hello sodo,

thanks for your kind reply so far. But - to be honest - it rather consfuses me than cleaning my "thoughts".

"Based" on is the important word , Judo was not developed as a fighting system but as a form of physical education (sport if you like) BASED on traditional martial arts BUT (very important "but")a much softer sytem and dangerous techniques were removed thus making Judo less effective and usefull as fighting (SD)system.

I read this arguement very often, but may I do missunderstand. A armlock for instance is - in my opinion - still a very dangerous technique. But I can't tell, since I neither practise like TSSR or any other jujutsu style with original versions of those techniques...

Which are those techniques, that have been removed? Do you know any? (or maybe a book/text-source, where you can find it? Thanks in anticipation)


In the other hand there must be some kind of reason why....Kano told his students to compare with other martial arts (like the "well known" comparison-fight with the fusen ryu people) to increase the effectivity of Judo, if the effectivity of the fighting system in rather secondary behind the education-component?

Good question! Physically you become stronger and fitter, emotionally, depending how you train you learn perseverance, dedication, how to deal with winning and losing, teamwork and dicipline, to name just a few. Intelectually you learn about anatomy, bio mechanics, mechanics, culture (Japanese), history, stratergy, tactics etc..


Judo is not more effective than all those other possible activities
, it is more effective than some und less effective than others.

I skipped some parts. I hope this fusion doens't falsify change the content.

So - in my conclusion - Judo is for you an exchangeable system for education, physical cultivation etc, but the "most attractive" to you? (due to your own personal reasons?)

Since there are similar/better/worse ones?

worse people than you have tried to insult me an failed

Iam sorry If you feel/felt like I tried to offend.

There just obviously a very thin border between "arguing from different points of view" and "offending/inslting".

My kindest regards,

the ogre

Ogre wrote:Hello Dear Judoka,

I've been spending a lot of time in the old (and now some time here) Forum as a only-reader.

Due to the topic in the thread "Experiences with the case of emergency " and Hanon statement (and some peoples subtext)

I try to teach the judo my sensei taught me, its kodokan judo through the lineage of the pre WW!! DNBK. My sensei didn't identify judo as a sport, a martial art nor hobby, to them judo was a vehicle for life

I want to ask the following (in a new thread, to avoid the emotional atmosphere of the other topic. If you want to merge them, feel free):

Why do you chose Judo as an educational system, if you refuse the fighting part of this martial art? In the end - and this out of question - judo is based on traditional "martial arts", that proofed their importance and their effectivity over decades and centuries.

What is your aim on practising judo for decades and to put so much effort in it? You learn kata that envolves throwing/groundwork/armlocks against an armed partner. Where is the educational momentum in this kind of training?

I don't need to say, that Judo is a nice tool for getting to know your own body, and to "cultivate" it. But isn't like swimming a nice tool to? Without the risk of harming your joints, your knees...?`On the other hand, how can judo cultivate your mind? Isn't like chess or go (with is posssibly more japanese then chess...) a straighter tool for people to think about the interaction of men? I mean something like chess would fit in your understanding of Jita Kyoei, if I interprete correctly...since you got to act with your partner as a intellectuel colloboration, but you don't need to risk to harm him in throwing-practise.

So to say...how can Judo be a efficient tool if it involves (fighting) methodes/parts, that you refuse? In my thinking there must have been a reason my Kano Shihan chose the jujutsu styles as a basis of his educational system, and if it's not the fighting part, what else?

It's totally accetable for me, that your perception of judo is different then mine (even though it seems that some people do have a problem with different perceptions on this topic), but I can't figure out, why in god's name Judo can be more effective than all those other possible activities (and so to say, judo must be the most effective way...otherwise it breaks his highest dictum of seiryoku zenyo).

My intention is not to offend you, but it's something I can't answer myself.

My kindest regards,

your big bald ogre

Hi Tom,
I will reply to your question later.
Mike

Ogre wrote:

"Based" on is the important word , Judo was not developed as a fighting system but as a form of physical education (sport if you like) BASED on traditional martial arts BUT (very important "but")a much softer sytem and dangerous techniques were removed thus making Judo less effective and usefull as fighting (SD)system.

I read this arguement very often, but may I do missunderstand. A armlock for instance is - in my opinion - still a very dangerous technique. But I can't tell, since I neither practise like TSSR or any other jujutsu style with original versions of those techniques...

Which are those techniques, that have been removed? Do you know any? (or maybe a book/text-source, where you can find it? Thanks in anticipation)

This is by far an exhaustive list, but check out the two links attached. These books, published 1892 and 1893 respectively, are depicting some of the techniques found in pre-jûdô jûjutsu (no Japanese skills needed, just browse )

Tenjin Shin'yo-ryu

Kito-ryu

Ogre wrote:

worse people than you have tried to insult me an failed

Iam sorry If you feel/felt like I tried to offend.

There just obviously a very thin border between "arguing from different points of view" and "offending/inslting".

My kindest regards,

the ogre

I am not going to give any input to the discussion as I tend to agree with Sodo.



I just wanted to say (and with no disrespect intended at all) that it seems clear that your home language is not English (neither is Sodo's btw)

He was not saying you TRIED to offend him... he was implying that what you said would NOT offend him as OTHERS have tried to, and failed...



Welcome to the forum

Hi Ogre,

I read this arguement very often, but may I do missunderstand. A armlock for instance is - in my opinion - still a very dangerous technique. But I can't tell, since I neither practise like TSSR or any other jujutsu style with original versions of those techniques...hich are those techniques, that have been removed? Do you know any?

Atemi waza and locks to minor joints.

In the other hand there must be some kind of reason why....Kano told his students to compare with other martial arts (like the "well known" comparison-fight with the fusen ryu people) to increase the effectivity of Judo, if the effectivity of the fighting system in rather secondary behind the education-component?

In these matches ther was no realk comparison with the other ju jutsu schools because these competitions followed rule sets that forbad many dangerous techniques.

I skipped some parts. I hope this fusion doens't falsify change the content.

So - in my conclusion - Judo is for you an exchangeable system for education, physical cultivation etc, but the "most attractive" to you? (due to your own personal reasons?)

Since there are similar/better/worse ones?

Correct, it depends personal preference but soccer, boxing, rugby, tennis or wrestling can bring some if not all of the benefits that you get from judo.

Iam sorry If you feel/felt like I tried to offend.

There just obviously a very thin border between "arguing from different points of view" and "offending/inslting".

I think you mussunderstood my humour, I just made a "funny" retort to you last sentence.

atb


sodo

Dear Hanon,
I am not "Ogre".

Should be seen by different IP.

I do not want to take part here furthermore because the level of ignorance is such high i can't stand.
So please it would be nice to let me out of these discussion.

That's all.
Again I ask the admin to cancel my account.
Thanks

tom herold wrote:Dear Hanon,
I am not "Ogre".

Should be seen by different IP.

I do not want to take part here furthermore because the level of ignorance is such high i can't stand.
So please it would be nice to let me out of these discussion.

That's all.
Again I ask the admin to cancel my account.
Thanks

Don't worry boys and girls, it is not just us that is being boycotted for our high level of ignorance it is most of the German judo fora, the DDK and the DJB, in fact almost anybody that has anything to d with judo

atb

sodo

###edit.
Whats the matter with you guys....seriously.
That's why I startet a new thread to avoid this shit....

sodo wrote:
In these matches ther was no realk comparison with the other ju jutsu schools because these competitions followed rule sets that forbad many dangerous techniques.

As far as I read, S. Yokoyama statet, that there were some really serious injuries to the opponents of the kodokan, which caused the death of some people. So the people took these fights were serious. I think it was around the 1920's. Iam not sure, if this was in Kano intention, nor to I know if this is translated 100% correctly.
But nevermind, it's drifting in some "background"-details, and this is not the intention of my thread.

Correct, it depends personal preference but soccer, boxing, rugby, tennis or wrestling can bring some if not all of the benefits that you get from judo.

I think iam quite happy with your statements and I think I can understand your thinkings and your attidude towards judo a bit better!

I think you mussunderstood my humour, I just made a "funny" tetort to you last sentence.
atb
sodo

Iam sorry, in not gut in sensing humor

With kindest regards,

the Ogre

If anyone is really interested in the history of this, I suggest taking a look at the following article which was published recently. I know one of the authors, Nakajima Tetsuya, who is a graduate student at Waseda.

http://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/gQfXSh9kgpviKhkeE9Qe/full

You can read the full text or download as a pdf at the above link.

The gist?

Judo and the process of nation-building in Japan: Kanō Jigorō and the formation of Kōdōkan judo

Tetsuya Nakajima & Lee Thompson

Abstract
Although the founding of judo by Kanō Jigorō has been well studied, perhaps less is known about the sociohistorical background behind its formation. This paper considers how the system of judo was constructed in the context of the formation of the nation state in Japan. Each aspect of Kanō's judo was developed in response to specific conditions – in particular, the Ministry of Education's aversion to the martial arts. Kanō developed what he referred to as the ‘values’ of judo in the context of the ministry's adoption of gymnastic exercises for the physical education curriculum. Moreover, Kanō believed that continuity with older schools of jujutsu was important, although in order to legitimize judo's patriotic credentials, he rejected the prevailing theory of jujutsu's Chinese origins. At the same time, he also excluded ‘frivolous’ techniques and attempted to restore jujutsu to its ‘original’ noble essence as a practical form of combat. The diverse and flexible history of jujutsu came to be forgotten.

Cheers,

Jon Z

Hi Ogre,

As far as I read, S. Yokoyama statet, that there were some really serious injuries to the opponents of the kodokan, which caused the death of some people. So the people took these fights were serious. I think it was around the 1920's. Iam not sure, if this was in Kano intention, nor to I know if this is translated 100% correctly.
But nevermind, it's drifting in some "background"-details, and this is not the intention of my thread.

#

depending on the quality of the translation, Yokoyama was refering to the old style ju jutsu competitions and his time before Kodokan judo and not to the regulated competitions under the new rules of Butoku Kai designed by Kano.

atb

sodo

This is a waste of time.
A fairy tale......In my dreams I buy a top Bentley car, all the extras imaginable. Park it in my nice 50 car garage along side my Aston Marten and collection of Jaguars....
I arrange for some mates to come around to tell them all about a surprise I have. Friends come and I tell them all about the new fridge I have just bought? Friends look puzzled. I open the electronic doors to my monster garage and ask what they think of my nice new fridge. Friends look even more puzzled. I drive the new Bentley out. and with a massive smile ask them to comment on my fridge.
Friends consider calling emergency services thinking I have finally gone all the way around the bend, in fact I am so mad I am nearly same again.
Friends begin to ask me how I can call my car a fridge? I open the boot and inside the boot is a Bentley fitted fridge. There it is for all to see.
Friends now look at me and agree that there is a fridge in the car but its a car with a fridge not a fridge with a car.
A car is built of many component parts ranging from electrical, mechanical, hydraulic, pneumatic, electronics, liquids, metal, interior etc and so forth.
Judo is much the same. Judo has numerous parts that come to make one whole. The core of judo is stated around two main criteria: Maximum efficiency with minimum effort and mutual welfare and benefit.
Not going to write chapter of verse yet again on this as it has been done to death already in other threads even on this new site. Judo is not ours to make of what we will. If we desire to practice judo then we should practice that that was founded by Jigoro kano not Mike Hanon or Wilfred Hidleberg et al. If one identifies judo as another ju jutsu then ask the simple question, why didn't kano just do what all previous Shihan did and call it kano ryu ju jutsu? Judo is judo, its different both physically and psychologically. We can, of course, use judo as a buffett and take what we like just like in my dream I bought a new fridge.
Mike

Hanon wrote:
Judo has numerous parts that come to make one whole. The core of judo is stated around two main criteria: Maximum efficiency with minimum effort and mutual welfare and benefit.

Hello Mike,

since I don't have any clue what you wanted to stress with your metaphor about fridges and cars; I might take this little part out, so maybe I can come a bitter close to what I intended with my question:

Efficiency is the ratio of the benefit of something compared with the energy you put it.
And now we come back:
As I mentioned in the starting post of this thread

What is your aim on practising judo for decades and to put so much effort in it?

I think all of you put alot of benefit into (daily) judo practise?! But there will be zero efficiency, if you got zero benefit or results. I don't want to imply that your training is not as much worth as mine (who am I to judge this), I just want to know where other people see their benefit, if they refuse the part of self-defense and fighting.
That's all I wanted to know (or get at least a little sense for your attitude).

I just want to know why you chose judo as your way (and now I think I start repeating myself) and sports like soccer, chess, traithlon, archery or yoga (which would fit in my mind perfectly to jita kyoei and seiryoku zenyo)....

I don't know why this should be a waste of time. If you don't feel like answering, you don't need to waste your time. I just got this question in my mind for a long time and I felt like I could ask it in the new forum.

My kindest regards,

big bald ogre

Jon Z wrote:If anyone is really interested in the history of this, I suggest taking a look at the following article which was published recently. I know one of the authors, Nakajima Tetsuya, who is a graduate student at Waseda.

http://www.tandfonline.com/eprint/gQfXSh9kgpviKhkeE9Qe/full

You can read the full text or download as a pdf at the above link.

The gist?

Judo and the process of nation-building in Japan: Kanō Jigorō and the formation of Kōdōkan judo

Tetsuya Nakajima & Lee Thompson

Abstract
Although the founding of judo by Kanō Jigorō has been well studied, perhaps less is known about the sociohistorical background behind its formation. This paper considers how the system of judo was constructed in the context of the formation of the nation state in Japan. Each aspect of Kanō's judo was developed in response to specific conditions – in particular, the Ministry of Education's aversion to the martial arts. Kanō developed what he referred to as the ‘values’ of judo in the context of the ministry's adoption of gymnastic exercises for the physical education curriculum. Moreover, Kanō believed that continuity with older schools of jujutsu was important, although in order to legitimize judo's patriotic credentials, he rejected the prevailing theory of jujutsu's Chinese origins. At the same time, he also excluded ‘frivolous’ techniques and attempted to restore jujutsu to its ‘original’ noble essence as a practical form of combat. The diverse and flexible history of jujutsu came to be forgotten.

Cheers,

Jon Z

Bravo!"

Ogre wrote:

Hanon wrote:
Judo has numerous parts that come to make one whole. The core of judo is stated around two main criteria: Maximum efficiency with minimum effort and mutual welfare and benefit.

Hello Mike,

since I don't have any clue what you wanted to stress with your metaphor about fridges and cars; I might take this little part out, so maybe I can come a bitter close to what I intended with my question:

Efficiency is the ratio of the benefit of something compared with the energy you put it.
And now we come back:
As I mentioned in the starting post of this thread

What is your aim on practising judo for decades and to put so much effort in it?

I think all of you put alot of benefit into (daily) judo practise?! But there will be zero efficiency, if you got zero benefit or results. I don't want to imply that your training is not as much worth as mine (who am I to judge this), I just want to know where other people see their benefit, if they refuse the part of self-defense and fighting.
That's all I wanted to know (or get at least a little sense for your attitude).

I just want to know why you chose judo as your way (and now I think I start repeating myself) and sports like soccer, chess, traithlon, archery or yoga (which would fit in my mind perfectly to jita kyoei and seiryoku zenyo)....

I don't know why this should be a waste of time. If you don't feel like answering, you don't need to waste your time. I just got this question in my mind for a long time and I felt like I could ask it in the new forum.

My kindest regards,

big bald ogre

For Kano Judo was the kind of sport that had also the benefit of being Japanese!
I practice Judo because it makes me feel good. I agree with you that for specific goals that you seem to advocate there would be many other things that one could and should practice. But my goal is not and has never been to be able to bully people and beat them up.

Jon Z wrote:If anyone is really interested in the history of this, I suggest taking a look at the following article which was published recently. I know one of the authors, Nakajima Tetsuya, who is a graduate student at Waseda...

Thanks, Jon. Ripped from the headlines ... resignations, jail time, controversial rule changes, injuries caused by overzealous and undereducated instructors, performance enhancing drugs, etc. ...

After investigating the physiological benefits of swordsmanship and
jujutsu, the Institute issued its report to the Ministry of Education in
October of 1884. Hiizu Miyake, Erwin Balz and Julius Scriba from the
medical faculty of Tokyo University participated in the study; they
looked at several schools of jujutsu, including Tenjinshinyō and Kitō,
the two main schools on which Kanō Jigorō based judo. The results of
their investigation were as follows:
Advantages of introducing Bujutsu into schools:

1.	An effective means of enhancing physical development.
2.	Develops stamina.
3.	Rouses the spirit, and boosts morale.
4.	Expurgates spinelessness and replaces it with vigour.
5.	Arms the exponent with techniques for self-defence in times of danger.

The dangers were as follows:

1.	May cause unbalanced physical development.
2.	Always an imminent danger present in training.
3.	Difficult to determine the appropriate degree of exercise, as both physically strong students and weaker individuals are apt to be excited too much.
4.	Could encourage violent behaviour due to the rousing of the spirit.
5.	Exhilarates the will to fight which could manifest into an attitude of winning at all costs.
6.	A danger of encouraging a warped sense of competitiveness to the extent that the child could even resort to dishonest tactics.
7.	Difficult to sustain unified instructional methodology for large numbers of students.
8.	Requires a large area to conduct training.
9.	Even though jûjutsu only requires a keiko-gi (training-wear), kenjutsu requires the use of armour and other special equipment which would be expensive and difficult to keep clean and hygienic. (Quoted from translation by Sōgawa, 2005, p. 197).