I think I see what you mean... correct me if I'm wrong, but your concern lies less with the physical capabilities or techniques a person may use
in a fight, but rather the development of the kind of attitude required
to do so without hesitation?
This was one of my points, yes.
Thanks for understanding.
Techniques are important, but more important is the mind-set.
Techniques are only the impreesion of this mind-set.
And, I want hasten to add, I do not mean the sport like techniques of judo.
I do mean the old school ones.
Self defense is- or, has become- a rather complicated and convoluted
subject particularly when related to martial arts, and this often makes
it difficult to have a straightforward discussion about.
Seems so, yes.
But in my point of view there is no such thing as "self defense".
There is only fight.
In various ways - it can be done as a sport (in my opinion this has few to do with "fight") or in the way it is designed for.
I am sad about the fact that nearly all judoka has forgotten what judo was for, beside the later applications of sport and education.
Depending on ones individual personality and general outlook, hurting
another human being without experiencing fear, guilt, disgust, general
unwillingness or any other negative emotional reaction is generally not
only very difficult, but outside of extreme situations something that I
personally wouldn't want to train into someone even if I could.
I hesitate to contradict you, but ...
This is exactely what I call the problem.
If the situation is going worse and you never before practised what to do now, you are unable to do so.
You want to be able to leave the place upright at least?
Then practice exactely that. Learn what you need for that and learn where in judo curriculum you will find it.
Nothing else will help you.
I do respect everybody who says: I do not want to do such barbarian things!
But then you are a victim if things go worse.
Confronted with real violence, you will be a victim then.
I do know that most sport judoka don't want to believe that.
But my experiences over decades showed me exactely that.
Maybe most of sport judoka never will be seriously attacked in real life.
But is there a guarantee?
Call me a freak, but I can you tell that violence will be find in places you never would expect.
That's the attitude not of a Judoka but of a trained killer, and also
the sort of attitude I'd expect of the person for whom 'extreme violence
is as normal as breathing'; it would be ironic indeed if this
hypothetical training produced people no different from the very threat
against which they initially sought to defend themselves...
I am bit sad to read this.
Especially because you can find phrases written by Kano himself who told that the first level of judo is "defense against attack", and he did not mean sport.
And Kano - as I wrote before - said that judoka should learn from boxers.
If wished I can bring this words of Kano (and lot more) again,
And by the way - how you will handle the attack of a person who is extremely violent?
How will you leave upright at least if you are unable to attack the aggressor effetive because you never trained to do so?
I never wrote: Kill him!
I say: Do what is necessary!
And if it is necessary to kill him ... if that is the way you can survive his attacks ...
Then do it.
I know there are many judoka interested in getting abilities of "fighting in earnest" (like Kano wrote).
Again and again it is told them: "Not here in this judo club! We do civilized judo, we do not harm anybody! Try it elsewhere! Judo is not for what you want!"
And that, I am so sorry, is crap.
I do not want to be impolite. Really not.
But what about the guys who want to do judo as an effective martial art?
Judo was as ancestor of koryu designed for that.
The "sport" idea came much later.
Allright, I thought I could find here judoka interested in other aspects of judo than sport or education.
Sorry, my failure.
I am a bit disappointed now, but it's ok.
I thaught I would find guys here interested in discussing training methods for reality. I thaught I could find guys experienced in training of atemi-waza like Sakujiro Yokoyama and Nakabayashi recommended.
I hoped to find other guys experienced in worst case too.
Please do not think I want to be impolite.
But what for do you have that "Self Defence" subforum if nobody wants to talk about really violence and nobody wants to know what to do against this violence?
I am confused about that because all I could read is: "No, man, go ahead, nobody is interested in knowledge about really worse situations of violence. We want to do judo as a sport only. And judo is not made to be used in such situations, so what the crap you talking about?"
Sorry, that is what I read in your postings.
Nobody did ask: "Hey, tell me more about your training methods. Where are they from? What Japanese teacher showed you such things? Why do you train such way and what exactly you do during your training sessions? What kind of experiences with worst cases of violence do you have?"
Probably this is the wrong forum.
I am sorry if I should have interfered.
I wish you furthermore a lot of fun in the training.
Last edited by tom herold on Mon Feb 04, 2013 9:25 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : spelling)