Judo Belt - Grade Colors Consistant?

You can see various coloured belts being worn by children in Japan here:

Just to throw a cat amongst the pigeons ...

I have a certificate dated 1927 awarding my grandfather an orange belt in jiu jitsu. The place? Nelson, New Zealand. The examiner? Capt. Leopold McLaglan.

Now I know McLaglan is usually acclaimed a shyster but this is nevertheless an early example removed from the Budokwai or Kawaishi. Incidentally, McLaglan went on to teach the Shanghai Police, who taught Fairbairn and Sykes, who went on to teach some of the founders of modern British ju-jitsu.

DougNZ wrote:Just to throw a cat amongst the pigeons ...

I have a certificate dated 1927 awarding my grandfather an orange belt in jiu jitsu. The place? Nelson, New Zealand. The examiner? Capt. Leopold McLaglan.

Now I know McLaglan is usually acclaimed a shyster but this is nevertheless an early example removed from the Budokwai or Kawaishi. Incidentally, McLaglan went on to teach the Shanghai Police, who taught Fairbairn and Sykes, who went on to teach some of the founders of modern British ju-jitsu.

I know little of McLaglan from his NZ days, but he is briefly mentioned in relation to Haakon Schønning (1901-1950), a curious figure who traveled to Shanghai and later became the first teacher of jû-jutsu to the Norwegian police force. Would you happen to have any more info on McLaglan? I've read his book and the Bullshido thread on him...

cuivien wrote:Would you happen to have any more info on McLaglan? I've read his book and the Bullshido thread on him...

I'm afraid that all the information I have read on him has been googled. I have not collated any of it. I do remember one extensive site on McLaglan on the web ...

BillC wrote:Colored belts ... for kids ... imho a silly, unnecessary thing as well.

How can anyone call colored belts for kids a silly, unnecessary thing? For the youngsters setting yourself goals in the form of Kyu grades is great. The color is a representation of that achievement. I believe it is more important for kids than adults. Even the Kodokan uses colored belts for youngsters. There only the adults use the white-, brown- then black system.

During my visit to the Kodokan's shochu-geiko last year the Japanese made fun of me because i wore a "kids"-belt in the senior lineup, it was really funny though

Just as a side note, I was surprised to see Alex Bennett's name pop up here, he's a well-known kendo guy (nanadan, editor in chief of Kendo World magazine) but I guess he's doing translation work for judo people as well.

Ryvai wrote:

BillC wrote:Colored belts ... for kids ... imho a silly, unnecessary thing as well.

How can anyone call colored belts for kids a silly, unnecessary thing? For the youngsters setting yourself goals in the form of Kyu grades is great. The color is a representation of that achievement. I believe it is more important for kids than adults. Even the Kodokan uses colored belts for youngsters. There only the adults use the white-, brown- then black system.

A distraction from the fun of playing judo, pure and simple.  Tired of hearing of comparisons with no meaning ... "so-and-so got his green belt, but my kid is only an orange belt ..."

The only meaningful measurements of students are ... numbers, e.g. throws per minute, number of classes attended per month, etc. ... and in the character of the judoka ... do they want badly to make just one more throw, to attend all the classes available and more?  And do they encourage others to do the same?

Colored belts are a bad habit, a poor substitute for a real judo program.  They accomplish none of these real objectives and often serve as an impediment.  

Of course there is an ice cube's chance in hell of colored belts going away.  Entire judo organizations are built around the control and issuance of a multitude of silly pieces of cloth.  And if it's not about the control ... about plump bellies with their thumbs stuck in their own strips of peppermint candy and red licorice ... then it's about the revenue ...

P.S. Sorry for helping keep this car wreck of a thread moving, it should have been hauled off to the crusher months ago.

Ryvai wrote:

BillC wrote:Colored belts ... for kids ... imho a silly, unnecessary thing as well.

How can anyone call colored belts for kids a silly, unnecessary thing? For the youngsters setting yourself goals in the form of Kyu grades is great. The color is a representation of that achievement. I believe it is more important for kids than adults. Even the Kodokan uses colored belts for youngsters. There only the adults use the white-, brown- then black system.

During my visit to the Kodokan's shochu-geiko last year the Japanese made fun of me because i wore a "kids"-belt in the senior lineup, it was really funny though

Because study after study has shown that this kind of reward system just feeds ego-maniacal nonsense and distracts from enjoying a sport for it's own sake. Almost every sport on the planet functions and thrives without a belt system. I don't see how anyone could have a hard time at least entertaining the idea that they might not be as useful as we think.

ccwscott wrote:
Because study after study has shown that this kind of reward system just feeds ego-maniacal nonsense and distracts from enjoying a sport for it's own sake.  Almost every sport on the planet functions and thrives without a belt system.  I don't see how anyone could have a hard time at least entertaining the idea that they might not be as useful as we think.

Sports may not have a belt system, but they have other mechanisms for stratifying the players. When my kids played soccer, they started out as white belts (rec), moved on as yellow belts (div 3) where they stayed due to lack of talent and motivation. They could have progressed to div 2, div 1 and then I think there's two more competitive levels after that provincially, then national team and ultimately pro.

Neil G wrote:

ccwscott wrote:
Because study after study has shown that this kind of reward system just feeds ego-maniacal nonsense and distracts from enjoying a sport for it's own sake.  Almost every sport on the planet functions and thrives without a belt system.  I don't see how anyone could have a hard time at least entertaining the idea that they might not be as useful as we think.

Sports may not have a belt system, but they have other mechanisms for stratifying the players.  When my kids played soccer, they started out as white belts (rec), moved on as yellow belts (div 3) where they stayed due to lack of talent and motivation.  They could have progressed to div 2, div 1 and then I think there's two more competitive levels after that provincially, then national team and ultimately pro.

I get what you're saying , I don't think the comparison is exactly the same, but I do see belts as useful when you have a sport where Olympic athletes and beginners can be on the same mat. But using them a way to quickly identify skill level is different than using them as a reward and punishment system, and I don't understand someone who can't at least *entertain* the idea of the belt system being less useful then we think.

ccwscott wrote:
I get what you're saying , I don't think the comparison is exactly the same, but I do see belts as useful when you have a sport where Olympic athletes and beginners can be on the same mat.  But using them a way to quickly identify skill level is different than using them as a reward and punishment system, and I don't understand someone who can't at least *entertain* the idea of the belt system being less useful then we think.

Well said, but one needs to add a bit more in the case of judo.  Judo may have become a sport for many, if not most, of its practitioners around the world, especially children.  That said, judo includes quite a bit more that also is accounted for in a complete grading system.

Said another way, judo was founded as something other than a sport, and its belt system retains to some extent efforts to differentiate proficiency and experience in both sport and in judo as a whole.  So to compare judo to other activities and note that there are no belts in ... baseball, soccer, wrestling, the NBA, ping-pong, hot dog eating, NASCAR, fishing, golf, chess, etc. ... is not an entirely valid comparison even if these sports do have exclusive leagues and levels of play.

Maybe if comparisons are to be made, one has to look at where judo comes from and note the similarity in grading systems between judo and other modern Japanese arts ... kendo, shodo, etc.

Having done that, it's probably also a good idea to differentiate between belts for children and kyu/dan grades for adults.  We often fail to do that in other aspects of judo, belts are no exception.  This is the LARPy, Japanesy-looking, punishment and reward systems that CCWScott might be referring to.

medo wrote:

Stacey wrote:

medo wrote:One would assume that cyber postings from the well traveled Judoka are easy to spot, easy to read and very educational . You have to bear in mind that not all dan grades are well traveled other than entering grading's and odd competition there knowledge could come from one club, one sensei for most of their Judo life.  Remember most associations or clubs are not keen on you training elsewhere, so when you are told Kata is for old Judoka and won’t help your competitive edge or that sacrifice throws are bad Judo if you have not sort skills or knowledge from elsewhere you will tend believe that kind of rubbish.

Anyway back to belt systems something I use to do at my club for Juniors was use a Purple belt which was awarded at the start of each month to the most improved Judoka for last month it was only to be worn in the club and the junior had to hand it over to the next most improved in a bowing ceremony.
Because gradings tended to be quarterly it just helped reward the kids that were trying their hardest, not necessarily the best in the group. I explain to the class and the parents why the youngster was being awarded belt and the belt would change hands each month (3 different sizes in my holdall).  It’s not expensive like patches/badges star type systems helps some concentrate that little bit harder.

That's a pretty cool idea.  Did it help with retention and attendance?

Yes Its a tool that can be used in many ways to help the not so naturally gifted! As an incentive to help the ones getting perhaps a little bored that may be thinking of leaving, the one that came back from the grading that did not have a good day, and parents like it when little Johny/Janet have been praised in class and have something to show off at home.
Its also good to see the little ones hand over something they have earned to a buddy in the class with a bow and a round of claps from pupils and parents alike.

Thank you, that is an idea I will try in my kid's program.

Tai-Jutsu wrote:

medo wrote:

Stacey wrote:

medo wrote:One would assume that cyber postings from the well traveled Judoka are easy to spot, easy to read and very educational . You have to bear in mind that not all dan grades are well traveled other than entering grading's and odd competition there knowledge could come from one club, one sensei for most of their Judo life.  Remember most associations or clubs are not keen on you training elsewhere, so when you are told Kata is for old Judoka and won’t help your competitive edge or that sacrifice throws are bad Judo if you have not sort skills or knowledge from elsewhere you will tend believe that kind of rubbish.

Anyway back to belt systems something I use to do at my club for Juniors was use a Purple belt which was awarded at the start of each month to the most improved Judoka for last month it was only to be worn in the club and the junior had to hand it over to the next most improved in a bowing ceremony.
Because gradings tended to be quarterly it just helped reward the kids that were trying their hardest, not necessarily the best in the group. I explain to the class and the parents why the youngster was being awarded belt and the belt would change hands each month (3 different sizes in my holdall).  It’s not expensive like patches/badges star type systems helps some concentrate that little bit harder.

That's a pretty cool idea.  Did it help with retention and attendance?

Yes Its a tool that can be used in many ways to help the not so naturally gifted! As an incentive to help the ones getting perhaps a little bored that may be thinking of leaving, the one that came back from the grading that did not have a good day, and parents like it when little Johny/Janet have been praised in class and have something to show off at home.
Its also good to see the little ones hand over something they have earned to a buddy in the class with a bow and a round of claps from pupils and parents alike.

Thank you, that is an idea I will try in my kid's program.

Pleased my years of training/learning is of some use to fellow Judoka I really miss Judo big whole in my life after 40yrs