Heirarchy in groundwork

So, I like to learn a lot of BJJ to incorporate into my judo. I don't advocate this for everyone, because often it takes a discerning eye to realize what might be called a choke is actually a crank. What I've found in several places is what is known as a "Heriarchy of positions" for BJJ. So, being the guy on top on someone's back is the best position to be in (I don't agree with this from a judo perspective) and being on top in full mount is the second best and it works down from there. Being the guy on the bottom with someone on your back is considered the worst position.

So what I'm wondering is if there is the same thing for Judo? It should look different, since keeping someone in a pin is considered a win. But, is Kesa Gatame better than full mount, or vice versa? Should you be looking to improve your pin into a "better" one if you've gotten it pretty solid already? Does the pyramid look different for different belts? Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated.

I'll see what I can do as far as posting the Heriarchy of BJJ positions.

My understanding of this hierarchy is that it is based on vale tudo and other forms of fighting that allow striking, in so much as the rear mount is the best striking / attacking position, followed by mount, etc. Sport ju-jitsu rules also make the differentiation: the 4 pts awarded to rear mount or mount position reflect its superior fighting position over, say, cross mount or scarf hold, which have less fighting options and are therefore awarded 2pts.

As the objective of judo shiai is quite different, I would expect a different hierarchy. While kesa gatame offers limited striking possibilities in the ju-jitsu context, it is an excellent means of pinning someone for a prolonged period in the judo context.

charlietuna wrote:So, I like to learn a lot of BJJ to incorporate into my judo. I don't advocate this for everyone, because often it takes a discerning eye to realize what might be called a choke is actually a crank. What I've found in several places is what is known as a "Heriarchy of positions" for BJJ. So, being the guy on top on someone's back is the best position to be in (I don't agree with this from a judo perspective) and being on top in full mount is the second best and it works down from there. Being the guy on the bottom with someone on your back is considered the worst position.

So what I'm wondering is if there is the same thing for Judo? It should look different, since keeping someone in a pin is considered a win. But, is Kesa Gatame better than full mount, or vice versa? Should you be looking to improve your pin into a "better" one if you've gotten it pretty solid already? Does the pyramid look different for different belts? Any thoughts on this would be greatly appreciated.

I'll see what I can do as far as posting the Heriarchy of BJJ positions.

I don't see there being a heirarchy in judo, just that some are easier and better taught than others. Fighters have different games and do what they like or shows most opportunity. Sry, I guess that might mean heirarchy. 1st I learned was Kesa-gatame and then Kata-gatame. I cant remember the rder of the rest.

I do disagree with Doug.lol Well, kinda. Tho, I'm not exactly sure what Vale Tudo is yet. I dont believe that taking back is all that offensive on another grappler. I think it is more effective when usual top control means using gloves to strike near the head and with time limits but I dont see that being all that effective in reality. In fact, I think a Gracie, some that are commonly known to fight no gloves and no time, mostly used this vs fellas who can't or who didn't fight alot and have hence developed the 'palm strike' here.lol

Q mystic wrote:I do disagree with Doug.lol Well, kinda. Tho, I'm not exactly sure what Vale Tudo is yet. I dont believe that taking back is all that offensive on another grappler.

What is not fun is having someone on your back pounding away at your temples and jaw whilst you defend their strangle, and then them working for a strangle whilst you defend your head. Then, when you work out a way of defending both head and neck, they start dropping elbows into the base of your skull. Defence against those normally results in arm or shoulder locks. No defence normally results in a sleep.

Yep, rear mount is pretty effective.

DougNZ wrote:

Q mystic wrote:I do disagree with Doug.lol Well, kinda. Tho, I'm not exactly sure what Vale Tudo is yet. I dont believe that taking back is all that offensive on another grappler.

What is not fun is having someone on your back pounding away at your temples and jaw whilst you defend their strangle, and then them working for a strangle whilst you defend your head. Then, when you work out a way of defending both head and neck, they start dropping elbows into the base of your skull. Defence against those normally results in arm or shoulder locks. No defence normally results in a sleep.

Yep, rear mount is pretty effective.

I do like taking back and looking for a choke to score aggression points, tho I know it typically won't work on another comp judoka. I suspect if I started hammering him in the 'temples and ears' he'd stand up, even with me on his back and get away and maybe smoke me pretty quick, especially if I had busted knuckles. Hence the palm strike.lol Or, just how hard does one intend to throw strikes from here? Cuz I rarely see them hurting him. In fact, even in mma, I rarely see them hurting all that much outside of wear and tear, even with gloves, in elites.

I think, if you can smoke someone via taking the back, then you could've smoked them anywhere, anyways, and personally just consider it a waste of YOUR efficiency. Take back, for sure, just don't let the training for it cut into your frontal assault.lol

p.s. does taking back mean I have to carry my weight and his on my knees? Geesh.lol j/k but not so much tho in a normal front 'saturday-night' from wrestling and judo.

I am going to pass for this thread ... really leaving answers up to people who have expertise in BJJ. I had to read the original post a couple of times, not sure what was meant, and finding the terminology 'hierarchy' somewhat odd. Anyhow, really the only thing I wanted to contribute was to point out that 'pins' (osaekomi-waza) are mostly an invention added for the contest character of jûdô than for the real budô character of it. After all, in a practical situation, how long are you going to keep your attacker in a hold ? Are you going to let him stand up after 20 seconds or 30 seconds ? Obviously not. Then how long ? Five minutes, twenty minutes ? Possible for some osaekomi-waza, but could also get really uncomfortable for the tori, if the other person is really strong, or you get cramps, or the underground is really uncomfortable. So, this is not a disadvantage the shime-waza and kansetsu-waza have, but I don't know if one should call that hierarchy. The osaekomi-waza have a more important role than just holding your opponent down for X-number of seconds. They serve the purpose of learning how to master control in newaza, and it is important that novices properly learn osaekomi-waza first (from a jûdô-pedagogical point of view obviously, not talking from the point of view of a different art with different learning objectives).

Q mystic wrote:
I do like taking back and looking for a choke to score aggression points, tho I know it typically won't work on another comp judoka. I suspect if I started hammering him in the 'temples and ears' he'd stand up, even with me on his back and get away and maybe smoke me pretty quick, especially if I had busted knuckles. Hence the palm strike.lol

If he is able to stand up when you're on his back you're not doing it right.

Q mystic wrote:Or, just how hard does one intend to throw strikes from here? Cuz I rarely see them hurting him. In fact, even in mma, I rarely see them hurting all that much outside of wear and tear, even with gloves, in elites.

People fairly often get pounded out from the back in MMA even though the back of the head, which is the most obvious and dangerous target, is illegal. A former coach of mine got overexcited and elbowed the back of the head in an MMA fight and gave the guy a fairly bad concussion with two shots (and was then promptly disqualified).

Q mystic wrote:I think, if you can smoke someone via taking the back, then you could've smoked them anywhere, anyways, and personally just consider it a waste of YOUR efficiency. Take back, for sure, just don't let the training for it cut into your frontal assault.lol

This I can't decode. It's more efficient to attack the back because he doesn't have any limbs there to stop you and you can strike him without fear of effective retaliation. These things obviously don't apply in Judo competition.

charlietuna wrote:But, is Kesa Gatame better than full mount, or vice versa? Should you be looking to improve your pin into a "better" one if you've gotten it pretty solid already?

IMO, transitioning from one groundhold to another without a good reason is a good thing to do in randori but not shiai. If you are in randori and have uke solid, sure switch after a little while, it's good training for you both. But in shiai if you have a good hold, keep it unless you need to switch due to uke's attempts to escape.

On a related matter, off the throw it's best to transition quickly into whatever hold presents itself, even if it's not ideal. You can then improve your position if you need to. I often see beginners end up in some variation of a hold that is working, and then try to move into the classical version of that hold because that is what they are taught - that is an opportunity for uke to escape.

Cichorei Kano wrote:The osaekomi-waza have a more important role than just holding your opponent down for X-number of seconds. They serve the purpose of learning how to master control in newaza, and it is important that novices properly learn osaekomi-waza first (from a jûdô-pedagogical point of view obviously, not talking from the point of view of a different art with different learning objectives).

CK, you raise a very good point here about "...how to master control in newaza.." as an extention to osaekomi. Unfortunately, I find that osaekomi is generally taught as a finishing point (i.e. control until matte), rather than say--- here are principles of weight, space, and control that should also be applied to the uke during the transition from tachi waza to newaza. This is a topic worth expanding upon....

PointyShinyBurning wrote:

Q mystic wrote:
I do like taking back and looking for a choke to score aggression points, tho I know it typically won't work on another comp judoka. I suspect if I started hammering him in the 'temples and ears' he'd stand up, even with me on his back and get away and maybe smoke me pretty quick, especially if I had busted knuckles. Hence the palm strike.lol

If he is able to stand up when you're on his back you're not doing it right.

Q mystic wrote:Or, just how hard does one intend to throw strikes from here? Cuz I rarely see them hurting him. In fact, even in mma, I rarely see them hurting all that much outside of wear and tear, even with gloves, in elites.

People fairly often get pounded out from the back in MMA even though the back of the head, which is the most obvious and dangerous target, is illegal. A former coach of mine got overexcited and elbowed the back of the head in an MMA fight and gave the guy a fairly bad concussion with two shots (and was then promptly disqualified).

Q mystic wrote:I think, if you can smoke someone via taking the back, then you could've smoked them anywhere, anyways, and personally just consider it a waste of YOUR efficiency. Take back, for sure, just don't let the training for it cut into your frontal assault.lol

This I can't decode. It's more efficient to attack the back because he doesn't have any limbs there to stop you and you can strike him without fear of effective retaliation. These things obviously don't apply in Judo competition.

mma is taped fists and gloves which isnt the same imo but I hear you with the elbow.

I guess the part that I didn't make clear is that while I do feel taking the back can be valuable, I just don't see it as efficient.

Sincerely Pointy, I'm not trolling, just chatting, but I guess my personal issue is this...(sry that I have to be more vague using the 'names')

In mma, between wrestling and bjj (both with many mma competitors), I see wrestlers primarily dominating via same old, same old trad top game. I would see these top positions as even much, much more advantageous without the gloves. I think this is what should be the forefront, especially when god knows how many older judoka on this forum, and the old jf, have wrestling experience or that judoka demo this just fine in mma as well. Albeit in more limited numbers.

To be clear...I know bjjers are killers. BJJ is awesome and I am hugely impressed. I have had my back taken pretty solid; however, I can't help but think if this bjjer/wrestler type had instead done judo/wrestling, he might've walked right thru me right off the hop. Maybe, because he is abusing my weak link.lol

Taking back is fine, but anyone who has ever wrestled or judo'd enuff will opt for 'their' easier positions of dominance and very few wrestler or judoka vets that I have seen in mma don't seem to take back much. If there were no strikes in mma, I bet we'd see alot more taking the back, like in grappling comps.

p.s. Also, I see taking-the-back work better for the 6 foot 145 lber in nogi much, much more than I do any others.

p.p.s. I know that bjj has alot of 'rolling'. Alot of medium to light-heavy randori newaza. When they go vs another equal in heavy randori, is the taking the back such a realistic option? Just asking because iirc the osaekomi come just as quick, if not quicker, in heavy judo newaza as well as pins in wrestling, than in medium randori.

Q mystic wrote:
p.p.s. I know that bjj has alot of 'rolling'. Alot of medium to light-heavy randori newaza. When they go vs another equal in heavy randori, is the taking the back such a realistic option? Just asking because iirc the osaekomi come just as quick, if not quicker, in heavy judo newaza as well as pins in wrestling, than in medium randori.

Often much, much more realistic than passing the guard to a secure pin. If you watch the top guys in the lighter weight classes at the Mundials or ADCC you'll see very, very little time spent in things that would count as osaekomi, it's simply too hard to securely pass and hold guys once their guard is at a certain level. Chokes from the back are by far the most common finishes as well.

It sounds like it seems a speciality tactic to you because you're not good at it, honestly. Wrestlers do use the position as well, by the way, though it's less popular for them.

The backmount where youre like a monkey clinging to his back and uke is face up, that's not a very strong position to pound some1 out in MMA, but it is a good position to hold and work a choke or armbar from. Now the backmount where uke is faced down and stretched, its game set match in MMA. Also I find it is much easier to hold a guy in mount or backmount, but that could just be me.

Also its a mistake to think that the point system in BJJ reflects the preference of bjjers/grapplers. I for one prefer mount over backmount. And I know a lot of guys that prefer to hang out in top sidemount.

And DougNZ, the sidemount doesn't give you 2 points, in fact it doesn't give you any points. You can get 3 points for a pass. Mount and backmount are the only positions that score points (4 indeed)

Dutch Budo wrote:And DougNZ, the sidemount doesn't give you 2 points, in fact it doesn't give you any points. You can get 3 points for a pass. Mount and backmount are the only positions that score points (4 indeed)

You might note I said sport ju-jitsu - not BJJ.

I think speed is also a factor - you just dont have the same amount of time on the ground in Judo as you do in BJJ plus osekome doesnt count - you haver to tap them out - this completely changes which techniques you will use - kesa gatame is awkward in bjj but it doesnt score you anything . If I take someones back in Judo it can take a while to get past any defenses they have of their neck etc in Judo "mate" would have been called long ago. Kesa gatame on the other hand can weork very quiclkly and is osekome in Judo . So the techniques you use depends on how fast you can get into them from a throw that hasnt got you an ippon etc

PointyShinyBurning wrote:

Q mystic wrote:
p.p.s. I know that bjj has alot of 'rolling'. Alot of medium to light-heavy randori newaza. When they go vs another equal in heavy randori, is the taking the back such a realistic option? Just asking because iirc the osaekomi come just as quick, if not quicker, in heavy judo newaza as well as pins in wrestling, than in medium randori.

Often much, much more realistic than passing the guard to a secure pin. If you watch the top guys in the lighter weight classes at the Mundials or ADCC you'll see very, very little time spent in things that would count as osaekomi, it's simply too hard to securely pass and hold guys once their guard is at a certain level. Chokes from the back are by far the most common finishes as well.

It sounds like it seems a speciality tactic to you because you're not good at it, honestly. Wrestlers do use the position as well, by the way, though it's less popular for them.

I'm not good at it but I think I used to be relatively ok until bjjers came along. I mean, I used to do it to my wrestling buddies quite a bit and my judo concept of it was much better than theirs, I believe. I could have chosen to get better at it but focused more on td/top control and believe this was more helpful.

I'm not really a fan of passing the guard either.lol I just don't see why anyone would want/need to outside of mma fans booing me and my paycheck.lol Another very anti-combat law, it seems, in mma, that benefits bjjs game.

The more I think about mma the more I like Ijf. Just because in a tourny they don't allow time for newaza doesn't mean that it isn't practiced. It's practiced heavily so that you don't have to do newaza in comp.lol Which I believe would be the same for old school ufc.

you guys do know that combat comes down to who has the faster jab right? Vague and very of course but if you fellas are young, you should lose the bjj and hit judo while it counts.

It all only 'seems' like there is a lot one can do. There really tho isn't a lot of grappling in grappling. Its small.

I remember back in early 80s and learning chess. I thought the best had to do 24 hour games. It wasn't long before I saw that they played fast games. Like count of moves. As in 'don't furk around'.lol

Nobody in this world of mine will show me news that vet judoka haven't. Except for adaptation of the 2000's plus judoka. That could sometimes use a little psychological work if they're looking for back.lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tH36ugGsy4M

jis sayin.

Q mystic wrote:you guys do know that combat comes down to who has the faster jab right? Vague and very of course but if you fellas are young, you should lose the bjj and hit judo while it counts.

It all only 'seems' like there is a lot one can do. There really tho isn't a lot of grappling in grappling. Its small.

I remember back in early 80s and learning chess. I thought the best had to do 24 hour games. It wasn't long before I saw that they played fast games. Like count of moves. As in 'don't furk around'.lol

Nobody in this world of mine will show me news that vet judoka haven't. Except for adaptation of the 2000's plus judoka. That could sometimes use a little psychological work if they're looking for back.lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tH36ugGsy4M

jis sayin.

I've read this three times, and I'm confused. Maybe its the beer I'm drinking... What did you mean when you said there "....isn't a lot of grappling in grappling.."? and "except for adaption of the 2000's plus judoka"?

afulldeck wrote:

Q mystic wrote:you guys do know that combat comes down to who has the faster jab right? Vague and very of course but if you fellas are young, you should lose the bjj and hit judo while it counts.

It all only 'seems' like there is a lot one can do. There really tho isn't a lot of grappling in grappling. Its small.

I remember back in early 80s and learning chess. I thought the best had to do 24 hour games. It wasn't long before I saw that they played fast games. Like count of moves. As in 'don't furk around'.lol

Nobody in this world of mine will show me news that vet judoka haven't. Except for adaptation of the 2000's plus judoka. That could sometimes use a little psychological work if they're looking for back.lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tH36ugGsy4M

jis sayin.

I've read this three times, and I'm confused. Maybe its the beer I'm drinking... What did you mean when you said there "....isn't a lot of grappling in grappling.."? and "except for adaption of the 2000's plus judoka"?

I'm saying that if you want to do bjj or grappling, that's fine. If you want to fight then there's already 50 plus years of judo and wrestling that will smoke any other concept in a New York minute. Just fries my butt when I hear bjj and back taking as a legit concept for judoka.

Grappling isn't a trade off of something. It's a kill zone. If you dint kill fast. Fail. lol. kill, kill, kill.lol

Q mystic wrote:
I'm not good at it but I think I used to be relatively ok until bjjers came along. I mean, I used to do it to my wrestling buddies quite a bit and my judo concept of it was much better than theirs, I believe. I could have chosen to get better at it but focused more on td/top control and believe this was more helpful.

Taking the back is part of top control and if you want to you can bail from there back to other dominant top control positions.

Q mystic wrote:I'm not really a fan of passing the guard either.lol I just don't see why anyone would want/need to outside of mma fans booing me and my paycheck.lol Another very anti-combat law, it seems, in mma, that benefits bjjs game.

There's no "law" that you have to pass the guard in MMA. See the entire career of Tito Ortiz, for example. It's a good idea if you want to submit the guy while having the opportunity to keep hitting him, which is why it's rewarded by the points system in BJJ.

Q mystic wrote:I'm saying that if you want to do bjj or grappling, that's fine. If you want to fight then there's already 50 plus years of judo and wrestling that will smoke any other concept in a New York minute. Just fries my butt when I hear bjj and back taking as a legit concept for judoka.

There's a plentiful history of wrestlers and Judokas getting 'smoked' by BJJ players in MMA and taking the back exists in both styles as we've already discussed.

No one is saying putting both hooks in is compulsory for fighting, but refusing to understand its value is just perverse. Just like imagining BJJ players are some kind of exotic gimmick when every top competitor in MMA either holds a belt in the style or is coached by people who do.

I think a lot of confusion arises because Q seems to be writing about actually fighting (as in "da street, bra" type of fighting, not sport fighting). And no, I'm not making the whole false dichotomy thing.

However, knowing how to take and hold the back is a critical grappling skill, as well as how to move from there to other positions. Or put handcuffs on a guy, or whatever. regardless of the situation.

There is a lot of fancy stuff we can do in Judo, BJJ, MMA, etc in the specific positions that probably isn't necessary to know in the simpler world of survival. Is that the wisdom Q is trying to impart?

Only Q knows...

Every good ne waza book I've read talks about the importance of controlling your opponent if you want to be able to choke him. Hooks are a good way to do that.

For what it's worth, I remember a story my Judo coach told me about an altercation he had when he was a brown belt around 1970 or so. Somehow he ended up in a fight with football player of something (a girl?). At any rate, he threw the guy (morote gari!), ended upon his back and then choked him with hadaka jime.

This old school BJJ no-rules challenge match shows a good application of back control in something like the "real world". They're even wearing gis:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3wfaJnNHBo

Q mystic wrote:

afulldeck wrote:

Q mystic wrote:you guys do know that combat comes down to who has the faster jab right? Vague and very of course but if you fellas are young, you should lose the bjj and hit judo while it counts.

It all only 'seems' like there is a lot one can do. There really tho isn't a lot of grappling in grappling. Its small.

I remember back in early 80s and learning chess. I thought the best had to do 24 hour games. It wasn't long before I saw that they played fast games. Like count of moves. As in 'don't furk around'.lol

Nobody in this world of mine will show me news that vet judoka haven't. Except for adaptation of the 2000's plus judoka. That could sometimes use a little psychological work if they're looking for back.lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tH36ugGsy4M

jis sayin.

I've read this three times, and I'm confused. Maybe its the beer I'm drinking... What did you mean when you said there "....isn't a lot of grappling in grappling.."? and "except for adaption of the 2000's plus judoka"?

I'm saying that if you want to do bjj or grappling, that's fine. If you want to fight then there's already 50 plus years of judo and wrestling that will smoke any other concept in a New York minute. Just fries my butt when I hear bjj and back taking as a legit concept for judoka.

Grappling isn't a trade off of something. It's a kill zone. If you dint kill fast. Fail. lol. kill, kill, kill.lol

Hmm I wouldnt entirely agree here. Im a Judoka first and foremost - but Im not so proud as to admit I havent learnt a thing or to from BJJ groundwork (the cultural aspects of BJJ that makes it unpopular amongst Judoka are a different topic). Thanks to BJJ when I see someone turtle in Newaza randori I love it - because I can just flip them over and take their back really quickly - the fact I cant choke them out quickly from taking their back says more about my poor finishing technique than the techniques capacity to be applied quickly.

personally I like kesa gatame. to me it's superior to all other positions, as long as there's no walls, fences, or other obstacles to deal with. throw in some physical barriers and my opinion changes entirely. but I don't train to fight. I participate in grappling arts that many also consider sports. and I don't do MMA (the home of the fence) so those considerations are non issues to me.

I prefer kesa to all other positions because:

1.it has some high percentage offensive options, examples are: the 4 different armlocks that use your leg as a fulcrum, getting into the juji gatame from there is easy as pie if you control uke's arm, the sode guruma jime (aka the "Ezekiel" choke) is already half way locked in. you can quickly change to the baseball bat choke, all you gotta do is grab the collar and pull the arm the arm over uke's head and about 4 other chokes are half way applied, plus some others that I'm sure I'll think of right after hitting send.

2. it's quick and easy to get into. if you pass the guard, all it involves is one arm around the head, a grip on uke's arm, and a bit of "body wiggling" (a technical term) to lock in. if you throw from the sleeve and lapel you almost land directly in it. even better if you throw from high sleeve/armpit and collar like I prefer to do.

3. it's easy to get out of. switching from kesa to almost any other top position is easy as pie (especially to mount or kamishiho/north-south), and if you're quick enough even if you get rolled you can still go immediately to guard as long as you can get a knee up.

that's my 3 reasons. others are welcome to disagree. in fact I hope you do disagree, so I can learn from this exchange.

Genetic, you find Kesa easy to get out of? If you do, I have to ask for your advice since I find it VERY difficult to escape Kesa.

I meant as tori, to move from kesa to other positions. but yes, since I have a solid understanding of the mechanics of kesa, I do find it very easy to get out of. but that's another topic of discussion. one I will pick back up elsewhere if you wish.