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Glorfindel
Cichorei Kano
Stevens
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    original knot of the obi

    Stevens
    Stevens


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    Post by Stevens Fri Dec 27, 2013 7:10 am

    Who can tell about the original knot of the judo obi?

    Cichorei Kano
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    original knot of the obi Empty Re: original knot of the obi

    Post by Cichorei Kano Fri Dec 27, 2013 7:53 am

    Stevens wrote:Who can tell about the original knot of the judo obi?



    What is there to say ?  I still tie my obi like that provided that the obi allows it and that it isn't IJF competition. IJF Refereeing Rules prescribe how the obi needs to be tied in competition, but not in practice obviously. Also if you compete in kata you run the risk that an idiot kata judge might subtract marks for simply not knowing he is ignorant. Classical tying of the obi is sometimes difficult if the belt is relatively new and stiff or if the ends are too short. Historically, belts were much softer, either sometimes being made of silk or when made out of cotton without an inside piece.

    Kanô described how the belt needed to be tied in his 1931 book and I have stuck with it to make it clear that I practice Kôdôkan jûdô as defined by Kanô Jigorô, not the IJF.
    Glorfindel
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    original knot of the obi Empty Re: original knot of the obi

    Post by Glorfindel Fri Dec 27, 2013 8:30 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Stevens wrote:Who can tell about the original knot of the judo obi?



    What is there to say ?  I still tie my obi like that provided that the obi allows it and that it isn't IJF competition. IJF Refereeing Rules prescribe how the obi needs to be tied in competition, but not in practice obviously. Also if you compete in kata you run the risk that an idiot kata judge might subtract marks for simply not knowing he is ignorant. Classical tying of the obi is sometimes difficult if the belt is relatively new and stiff or if the ends are too short. Historically, belts were much softer, either sometimes being made of silk or when made out of cotton without an inside piece.

    Kanô described how the belt needed to be tied in his 1931 book and I have stuck with it to make it clear that I practice Kôdôkan jûdô as defined by Kanô Jigorô, not the IJF.

    Can you put a link or something like that were it show how to do it??

    Thx.
    Cichorei Kano
    Cichorei Kano


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    original knot of the obi Empty Re: original knot of the obi

    Post by Cichorei Kano Fri Dec 27, 2013 9:20 am

    Glorfindel wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Stevens wrote:Who can tell about the original knot of the judo obi?



    What is there to say ?  I still tie my obi like that provided that the obi allows it and that it isn't IJF competition. IJF Refereeing Rules prescribe how the obi needs to be tied in competition, but not in practice obviously. Also if you compete in kata you run the risk that an idiot kata judge might subtract marks for simply not knowing he is ignorant. Classical tying of the obi is sometimes difficult if the belt is relatively new and stiff or if the ends are too short. Historically, belts were much softer, either sometimes being made of silk or when made out of cotton without an inside piece.

    Kanô described how the belt needed to be tied in his 1931 book and I have stuck with it to make it clear that I practice Kôdôkan jûdô as defined by Kanô Jigorô, not the IJF.

    Can you put a link or something like that were it show how to do it??

    Thx.

    Sorry, don't have any links. Have you tried googling it ? It's just the same flat knot, only the ends are not left hanging completely loose as is more common today. So basically when you make your knot you fold either one end double or both ends double and make the knot.
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    still learning


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    original knot of the obi Empty Re: original knot of the obi

    Post by still learning Fri Dec 27, 2013 9:46 am

    Is it like this?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zzuUDnGQYnE
    Cichorei Kano
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    Post by Cichorei Kano Fri Dec 27, 2013 10:37 am

    still learning wrote:Is it like this?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zzuUDnGQYnE

    That's just modern day belt tying that was not done during the days of Kanô.
    NBK
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    original knot of the obi Empty Re: original knot of the obi

    Post by NBK Fri Dec 27, 2013 11:15 am

    Look closely at pix of Kano shihan and Mifune sensei:

    original knot of the obi S0076l

    original knot of the obi 25742444_1

    Note that the ends are on one side of the loop.
    BillC
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    original knot of the obi Empty Re: original knot of the obi

    Post by BillC Fri Dec 27, 2013 6:28 pm

    Heisenberg
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    original knot of the obi Empty Re: original knot of the obi

    Post by Heisenberg Sat Dec 28, 2013 7:19 am

    I use this method. It stays flat and It's never once come untied on me. I've heard it called "superlock" or something like that.
    Glorfindel
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    original knot of the obi Empty Re: original knot of the obi

    Post by Glorfindel Sat Dec 28, 2013 7:23 am

    Thx!!
    Cichorei Kano
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    original knot of the obi Empty Re: original knot of the obi

    Post by Cichorei Kano Sat Dec 28, 2013 7:50 am

    Great video and thanks for posting it, but please, readers should be aware that it does not address the original question. I am posting this not to split hairs or be a pain in the butt, but to avoid people not carefully reading and drawing the wrong conclusion.
    Heisenberg
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    original knot of the obi Empty Re: original knot of the obi

    Post by Heisenberg Sat Dec 28, 2013 7:58 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:Great video and thanks for posting it, but please, readers should be aware that it does not address the original question. I am posting this not to split hairs or be a pain in the butt, but to avoid people not carefully reading and drawing the wrong conclusion.
    I don't think many of us (including me) know exactly how to tie the traditional obi knot, or to recognize said knot.

    Several years ago I did an internet search looking for traditional obi knots, but only found some things relating to knot variants for women's dress kimono. If a diagram or video is available, please post it.
    Cichorei Kano
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    original knot of the obi Empty Re: original knot of the obi

    Post by Cichorei Kano Sat Dec 28, 2013 9:24 am

    Heisenberg wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:Great video and thanks for posting it, but please, readers should be aware that it does not address the original question. I am posting this not to split hairs or be a pain in the butt, but to avoid people not carefully reading and drawing the wrong conclusion.
    I don't think many of us (including me) know exactly how to tie the traditional obi knot, or to recognize said knot.

    Several years ago I did an internet search looking for traditional obi knots, but only found some things relating to knot variants for women's dress kimono. If a diagram or video is available, please post it.

    I understand. As I had already pointed out I don't have any links or videos. I have never in modern times seen anybody but me tie his belt like that, and outside of Japan it was never common. It happened on occasion that at kids look at it noticing the difference but they then continue what they are doing and it has also happened that a lower black has asked me wondering if my obi was perhaps tied in correctly or said they had never seen anybody tie his obi like that. Right now I am not doing it because the two belts I am using are not well suited for that. One is too thick, the other one still too sturdy.

    A decent number of judo books in Japanese from 1955 and earlier contain the kind of diagram you are looking for. But as I had already indicated, it is really the same, it just looks different the reason being that you simply fold one or both ends.

    It's by no means as complicated as the way some schools tie their hakama, or perform tsukamaki (wrapping of tsuka on katana) and the sageo (cord). See: http://www.tsukamaki.net/tsuka/ Even shibari is far more complicated, though also far more fun ... (ref. NBK  Cool )
    Stevens
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    original knot of the obi Empty Re: original knot of the obi

    Post by Stevens Sun Dec 29, 2013 4:19 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Heisenberg wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:Great video and thanks for posting it, but please, readers should be aware that it does not address the original question. I am posting this not to split hairs or be a pain in the butt, but to avoid people not carefully reading and drawing the wrong conclusion.
    I don't think many of us (including me) know exactly how to tie the traditional obi knot, or to recognize said knot.

    Several years ago I did an internet search looking for traditional obi knots, but only found some things relating to knot variants for women's dress kimono. If a diagram or video is available, please post it.

    I understand. As I had already pointed out I don't have any links or videos. I have never in modern times seen anybody but me tie his belt like that, and outside of Japan it was never common. It happened on occasion that at kids look at it noticing the difference but they then continue what they are doing and it has also happened that a lower black has asked me wondering if my obi was perhaps tied in correctly or said they had never seen anybody tie his obi like that. Right now I am not doing it because the two belts I am using are not well suited for that. One is too thick, the other one still too sturdy.

    A decent number of judo books in Japanese from 1955 and earlier contain the kind of diagram you are looking for. But as I had already indicated, it is really the same, it just looks different the reason being that you simply fold one or both ends.

    It's by no means as complicated as the way some schools tie their hakama, or perform tsukamaki (wrapping of tsuka on katana) and the sageo (cord). See: http://www.tsukamaki.net/tsuka/  Even shibari is far more complicated, though also far more fun ...  (ref. NBK   Cool )

    To be sure:

    The original Kano knot is like this only link and the ends must be shorter!?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zzuUDnGQYnE

    I heard something like when the ends are long you're dead and when the ends are something like Kano and Mifune you're alive????





    Cichorei Kano
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    original knot of the obi Empty Re: original knot of the obi

    Post by Cichorei Kano Sun Dec 29, 2013 4:47 am

    Stevens wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Heisenberg wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:Great video and thanks for posting it, but please, readers should be aware that it does not address the original question. I am posting this not to split hairs or be a pain in the butt, but to avoid people not carefully reading and drawing the wrong conclusion.
    I don't think many of us (including me) know exactly how to tie the traditional obi knot, or to recognize said knot.

    Several years ago I did an internet search looking for traditional obi knots, but only found some things relating to knot variants for women's dress kimono. If a diagram or video is available, please post it.

    I understand. As I had already pointed out I don't have any links or videos. I have never in modern times seen anybody but me tie his belt like that, and outside of Japan it was never common. It happened on occasion that at kids look at it noticing the difference but they then continue what they are doing and it has also happened that a lower black has asked me wondering if my obi was perhaps tied in correctly or said they had never seen anybody tie his obi like that. Right now I am not doing it because the two belts I am using are not well suited for that. One is too thick, the other one still too sturdy.

    A decent number of judo books in Japanese from 1955 and earlier contain the kind of diagram you are looking for. But as I had already indicated, it is really the same, it just looks different the reason being that you simply fold one or both ends.

    It's by no means as complicated as the way some schools tie their hakama, or perform tsukamaki (wrapping of tsuka on katana) and the sageo (cord). See: http://www.tsukamaki.net/tsuka/  Even shibari is far more complicated, though also far more fun ...  (ref. NBK   Cool )

    To be sure:

    The original Kano knot is like this only link and the ends must be shorter!?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zzuUDnGQYnE

    I heard something like when the ends are long you're dead and when the ends are something like Kano and Mifune you're alive????


    More or less. That is to say, the final part of one or both ends is put back into the knot so that there aren't really any lose hanging ends. Tying the knot was simply more liberal in the old days, just like kata or many things in judo. You will also see historic sensei where both loops of the belt are not in the knot and only one is, so the kind of thing that everybody today would say "your belt is tied wrong" ...
    Stevens
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    Post by Stevens Sun Dec 29, 2013 12:36 pm



    More or less. That is to say, the final part of one or both ends is put back into the knot so that there aren't really any lose hanging ends. Tying the knot was simply more liberal in the old days, just like kata or many things in judo. You will also see historic sensei where both loops of the belt are not in the knot and only one is, so the kind of thing that everybody today would say "your belt is tied wrong" ...[/quote]

    i like that.... !
    NBK
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    Post by NBK Sun Dec 29, 2013 1:00 pm

    What is Japanese for 'bowtie'?

    Cichorei Kano
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    original knot of the obi Empty Re: original knot of the obi

    Post by Cichorei Kano Sun Dec 29, 2013 2:56 pm

    NBK wrote:What is Japanese for 'bowtie'?


    犬 ハーネス ?

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    original knot of the obi Empty Re: original knot of the obi

    Post by Hanon Mon Dec 30, 2013 3:58 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Stevens wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Heisenberg wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:Great video and thanks for posting it, but please, readers should be aware that it does not address the original question. I am posting this not to split hairs or be a pain in the butt, but to avoid people not carefully reading and drawing the wrong conclusion.
    I don't think many of us (including me) know exactly how to tie the traditional obi knot, or to recognize said knot.

    Several years ago I did an internet search looking for traditional obi knots, but only found some things relating to knot variants for women's dress kimono. If a diagram or video is available, please post it.

    I understand. As I had already pointed out I don't have any links or videos. I have never in modern times seen anybody but me tie his belt like that, and outside of Japan it was never common. It happened on occasion that at kids look at it noticing the difference but they then continue what they are doing and it has also happened that a lower black has asked me wondering if my obi was perhaps tied in correctly or said they had never seen anybody tie his obi like that. Right now I am not doing it because the two belts I am using are not well suited for that. One is too thick, the other one still too sturdy.

    A decent number of judo books in Japanese from 1955 and earlier contain the kind of diagram you are looking for. But as I had already indicated, it is really the same, it just looks different the reason being that you simply fold one or both ends.

    It's by no means as complicated as the way some schools tie their hakama, or perform tsukamaki (wrapping of tsuka on katana) and the sageo (cord). See: http://www.tsukamaki.net/tsuka/  Even shibari is far more complicated, though also far more fun ...  (ref. NBK   Cool )

    To be sure:

    The original Kano knot is like this only link and the ends must be shorter!?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zzuUDnGQYnE

    I heard something like when the ends are long you're dead and when the ends are something like Kano and Mifune you're alive????


    More or less. That is to say, the final part of one or both ends is put back into the knot so that there aren't really any lose hanging ends. Tying the knot was simply more liberal in the old days, just like kata or many things in judo. You will also see historic sensei where both loops of the belt are not in the knot and only one is, so the kind of thing that everybody today would say "your belt is tied wrong" ...

    I have read posts from you that have stated there is no correct way to tie an obi.

    Mike
    Cichorei Kano
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    original knot of the obi Empty Re: original knot of the obi

    Post by Cichorei Kano Mon Dec 30, 2013 5:15 am

    Hanon wrote:

    I have read posts from you that have stated there is no correct way to tie an obi.

    Mike

    Yup, although probably and semantically, one could also say "no way to tie it incorrectly". Then again, I'll probably soon regret such a statement as likely one idiot will come up with some extreme way just to prove that one can come up with a totally inappropriate way. In that context tying it as a string tanga between your legs and than around your hips may attract some frowns when you step on the tatami, especially if for the rest completely naked.


    Last edited by Cichorei Kano on Mon Dec 30, 2013 3:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
    NBK
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    original knot of the obi Empty Re: original knot of the obi

    Post by NBK Mon Dec 30, 2013 12:16 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Hanon wrote:

    I have read posts from you that have stated there is no correct way to tie an obi.

    Mike

    Yup, although tying it as a string tanga between your legs and than around your hips may attract some frowns when you step on the tatami, especially if for the rest completely naked.
    Japanese don't use tangas.  They use great big strips of canvas strung between your butt cheeks.  

    If you're going to do it, do it right:
    original knot of the obi 4_1
    Cichorei Kano
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    original knot of the obi Empty Re: original knot of the obi

    Post by Cichorei Kano Mon Dec 30, 2013 3:36 pm

    NBK wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Yup, although tying it as a string tanga between your legs and than around your hips may attract some frowns when you step on the tatami, especially if for the rest completely naked.
    Japanese don't use tangas.  They use great big strips of canvas strung between your butt cheeks.  

    If you're going to do it, do it right:


    You must not have been on the beach in Kôbe ...

    I have seen quite a few there, even not just with "butt strings", but also with "nipple strings" ...

    Remember a particular party there once organized by and at the embassy,or actually consulate, to be precise  ...


    Alternatively have fun with the fundoshi:

    original knot of the obi 201104141756370683


    http://fundoshi4all.tumblr.com/how

    What I meant in my original post was this:

    original knot of the obi Blackb10

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