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DougNZ
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xjej
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    Kansetsuwaza on legs ?

    xjej
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    Post by xjej Sun Feb 09, 2014 3:36 am

    I am definatly missing something about current competition rules, since when kansetsu waza on legs are allowed ?
    I just saw Korval pulling out a win vs Shikhalizada with a kansetzuwaza on a knee ( Paris Tournament ).
    Fritz
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    Post by Fritz Sun Feb 09, 2014 6:14 am

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=s1Cwv8TMghY

    May be the referees decided that the submission was from the sankaku-jime and not from
    the leg lock, resp. that the leg was not overstretched or so...
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    Post by hedgehogey Sun Feb 09, 2014 7:40 am

    Having been under that sub: there's pressure on both. There was clear barring of the leg there.
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    Post by Ricebale Sun Feb 09, 2014 7:40 am

    Knee Bar, the sankaku was a hold, nice knee bar though
    xjej
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    Post by xjej Sun Feb 09, 2014 7:40 am

    Uhm to me seems really overstretched and the leg being blocked by Korval's left leg

    https://imageshack.com/i/fv06c8j
    BillC
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    Post by BillC Sun Feb 09, 2014 8:29 am

    Dang! First choking with the bottom of the jacket, now this?
    Cichorei Kano
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    Post by Cichorei Kano Sun Feb 09, 2014 8:36 am

    xjej wrote:I am definatly missing something about current competition rules, since when kansetsu waza on legs are allowed ?
    I just saw Korval pulling out a win vs Shikhalizada with a kansetzuwaza on a knee ( Paris Tournament ).

    Everything in judo is allowed as long as the ref either doesn't see it or is too stupid to realize.

    If I were you, I would at least try out once using a taser on your opponent. In the best case you get ippon, in the worst case you'll lose by hansoku-make, and might have to revise your future strategy.
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    Post by xjej Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:17 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Everything in judo is allowed as long as the ref either doesn't see it or is too stupid to realize.

    If I were you, I would at least try out once using a taser on your opponent. In the best case you get ippon, in the worst case you'll lose by hansoku-make, and might have to revise your future strategy.

    CK, big thx for the sharp and wise tactical advice but pretty much done with competitions here, damaged ACL,LCL and MCL in right knee last autumn, considering my age and a left knee with an ACL already reconstructed I think I did ask enough to my knees.
    Anyway, did u have the impression from video that the knee was under barring there ?
    I know that everything is allowed until IJF wont ban it but I just wanted to understand the situation. My reaction during the fight was to think that I obviously did miss some new ruleset (tbh did not consider at all that the referee may not see anything not allowed ).

    PS
    Reconsidering your advice about using a taser, well untill IJF proves the opposite I may aswell be able to ground Teddy Riner. That may aswell be considered a wise and smart use of the energy, right ?  Very Happy 
    Cichorei Kano
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    Post by Cichorei Kano Sun Feb 09, 2014 2:53 pm

    xjej wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    Everything in judo is allowed as long as the ref either doesn't see it or is too stupid to realize.

    If I were you, I would at least try out once using a taser on your opponent. In the best case you get ippon, in the worst case you'll lose by hansoku-make, and might have to revise your future strategy.

    CK, big thx for the sharp and wise tactical advice but pretty much done with competitions here, damaged ACL,LCL and MCL in right knee last autumn, considering my age and a left knee with an ACL already reconstructed I think I did ask enough to my knees.
    Anyway, did u have the impression from video that the knee was under barring there ?
    I know that everything is allowed until IJF wont ban it but I just wanted to understand the situation. My reaction during the fight was to think that I obviously did miss some new ruleset (tbh did not consider at all that the referee may not see anything not allowed ).

    PS
    Reconsidering your advice about using a taser, well untill IJF proves the opposite I may aswell be able to ground Teddy Riner. That may aswell be considered a wise and smart use of the energy, right ?  Very Happy 

    The question arises whether the leg is held just to 'control' or whether it is overstretched to inflict pain and force the opponent to submit. Only the opponent knows for sure what prompted him to submit. However, there are several issues that raise serious concerns here. The thesis of mere control is questionable in the light of uke's leg clearly reaching extension Although females sometimes can reach hyperextension of joints that goes much further than males, it is credible that for a man of that build the maximal angle of extension is reached, hence tori is attempting to 'overstretch' or applying "hiza-hishigi".

    A second concern is that tori's left shin crosses tori's stretched leg at the knee side functioning as a fulcrum, while tori's hands are pulling towards the opposite side exactly as in a jûji-gatame.

    All in all, there are likely three mechanisms that cause considerable discomfort for uke:

    1. the sankaku
    2. pulling uke's leg as far as possible towards uke's leg
    3. hishigi-action on the knee joint

    Which of the three actions exactly prompted uke to tap out, none of us can say for sure, but that does not matter. A neck crank or leg lock isn't only illegal if it forces uke to tap out; it is illegal from the moment it is applied. This action has more than enough criteria to classify it as leg lock, and action should have promptly interrupted, the players made to stand up and uke be awarded "hansoku-make".

    The ref should have been taken off the tatami. At that level allowing such a blatant action that could have well destroyed uke's knee while not an accident nor 'suddenly' is a serious error in judgment.
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    Post by Davaro Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:08 am

    I agree. This was a clear action intended to place pressure on Uke's knee. Mate should have been called (or even shouted) to prevent injury to uke. If in doubt, the ref could have consulted the eye in the sky which "probably" would have resulted in hsm to tori.




    But then, who really knows what the rules are for French judoka at a French event?
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    Post by Ben Reinhardt Tue Feb 11, 2014 9:54 am

    I have to admit I've never seen an ura sankaku applied with that sort of leg "control" before.

    I wonder if this is something that the tori has deliberately practiced, or if he came up with it on the spur of the moment.

    Grabbing the leg to facilitate the roll I can see, but that leg "barring" the knee, and the leaning back juji gatame like position was pretty damning.

    As a ref, I would have called matte' for sure and consulted with the other refs (oops, the guys with the multiple camera angles).
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    Post by hedgehogey Tue Feb 11, 2014 10:47 am

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    Post by DougNZ Tue Feb 11, 2014 11:30 am

    I'm afraid I do not have a lot of sympathy for people who continuously turtle ...
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    Post by Ben Reinhardt Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:06 am

    DougNZ wrote:I'm afraid I do not have a lot of sympathy for people who continuously turtle ...

    Turtling is a valid tactic in competition, and something that needs to be studied and practiced as such. It's not something I encourage but if used intelligently has it's place. Personally, I'd like to see turtling not encouraged in the junior (kids) training, but, alas, it is.

    In any case, we have rules we agree to "play" by, and should follow them.

    In this case, the situation in my opinion warranted some sort of discussion by the refs...which may have happened at the deity-table but we don't know.

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    Post by afulldeck Wed Feb 12, 2014 7:45 am

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    DougNZ wrote:I'm afraid I do not have a lot of sympathy for people who continuously turtle ...

    Turtling is a valid tactic in competition, and something that needs to be studied and practiced as such. It's not something I encourage but if used intelligently has it's place. Personally, I'd like to see turtling not encouraged in the junior (kids) training, but, alas, it is.

    In any case, we have rules we agree to "play" by, and should follow them.

    In this case, the situation in my opinion warranted some sort of discussion by the refs...which may have happened at the deity-table but we don't know.

    Sure it does, but turtling is the stall gate for newaza and I wish there was a rule that allowed for a turtle pin, hence making it dangerous to stall in a face down position.

    I do agree that this situation would warrant a discussion, I think there is more of a hamstring stretch than a kneebar.
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    Post by DougNZ Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:29 am

    afulldeck wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    DougNZ wrote:I'm afraid I do not have a lot of sympathy for people who continuously turtle ...

    Turtling is a valid tactic in competition, and something that needs to be studied and practiced as such. It's not something I encourage but if used intelligently has it's place. Personally, I'd like to see turtling not encouraged in the junior (kids) training, but, alas, it is.

    In any case, we have rules we agree to "play" by, and should follow them.

    In this case, the situation in my opinion warranted some sort of discussion by the refs...which may have happened at the deity-table but we don't know.

    Sure it does, but turtling is the stall gate for newaza and I wish there was a rule that allowed for a turtle pin, hence making it dangerous to stall in a face down position.

    I do agree that this situation would warrant a discussion, I think there is more of a hamstring stretch than a kneebar.

    BJJ's rear mount took care of turtling in one clear stroke.

    I recently hosted a friendly tournament between my kids' club and the neighbouring judo club's kids. We used ju-jitsu rules (not BJJ) which gave them more mat time and more continuous fighting. However, we did not score rear mounts as the judo kids were not used to them. The outcome? The judo kids (and coaches, parents, etc) loved the continuous points fighting. My kids hated that EVERY time they threw a judo kid, they rolled on their stomach and covered up. The flow of the match was halted and became very start-stop. It was very frustrating and served to highlight a fundamental weakness in judo rules and psychology.

    At the very least, turtling should be considered non-combativeness and be penalised.
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    Post by Ricebale Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:38 am

    DougNZ wrote:
    afulldeck wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    DougNZ wrote:I'm afraid I do not have a lot of sympathy for people who continuously turtle ...

    Turtling is a valid tactic in competition, and something that needs to be studied and practiced as such. It's not something I encourage but if used intelligently has it's place. Personally, I'd like to see turtling not encouraged in the junior (kids) training, but, alas, it is.

    In any case, we have rules we agree to "play" by, and should follow them.

    In this case, the situation in my opinion warranted some sort of discussion by the refs...which may have happened at the deity-table but we don't know.

    Sure it does, but turtling is the stall gate for newaza and I wish there was a rule that allowed for a turtle pin, hence making it dangerous to stall in a face down position.

    I do agree that this situation would warrant a discussion, I think there is more of a hamstring stretch than a kneebar.

    BJJ's rear mount took care of turtling in one clear stroke.

    I recently hosted a friendly tournament between my kids' club and the neighbouring judo club's kids.  We used ju-jitsu rules (not BJJ) which gave them more mat time and more continuous fighting.  However, we did not score rear mounts as the judo kids were not used to them.  The outcome?  The judo kids (and coaches, parents, etc) loved the continuous points fighting.  My kids hated that EVERY time they threw a judo kid, they rolled on their stomach and covered up.  The flow of the match was halted and became very start-stop.  It was very frustrating and served to highlight a fundamental weakness in judo rules and psychology.

    At the very least, turtling should be considered non-combativeness and be penalised.

    Does anyone know the histiry of turtle and stomache out defence in Judo? I have a suspicion it is an early import from wrestling when Judo was becoming a sport.
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    Post by Cichorei Kano Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:50 am

    afulldeck wrote:
    Sure it does, but turtling is the stall gate for newaza and I wish there was a rule that allowed for a turtle pin, hence making it dangerous to stall in a face down position.

    That really isn't true. Yotsunbai (on all fours) isn't anymore stalling than utsubushi (on the belly) or do-osae ("guard"). All are positions that in newaza are characterized as both defensive and offensive positions, hence why newaza jûdô specifically also has categories attacking from yotsunbai, do-osae or utsubushi. This is clearly seen in Kôsen jûdô. If it has become a position of stalling then that really is of how the IJF rules are and how they are applied. Jûdô is a tactical interaction and that comprises positions in which attacks can be neutralized; that isn't any different in newaza than it is in tachi-waza.


    afulldeck wrote:
    I do agree that this situation would warrant a discussion, I think there is more of a hamstring stretch than a kneebar.

    Seriously, that is total and utter speculation, as I wrote in my earlier mail. Only uke knows for sure what exactly made him to submit. But also as I wrote, that really isn't as relevant as it may seem. A neckcrank or knee bar aren't only neck cranks and knee cranks when they force you to submit, nor do they only become punishable if they force you to submit. Any neck crank or knee bar appliked is prohibited and punishable, even if in the end an entirely action causes the opponent to submit, OR, stronger, even even if the person who is applying the neck crank or knee bar is loosing and for example in osae-komi-waza.
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    Post by medo Wed Feb 12, 2014 6:51 pm

    DougNZ wrote:
    afulldeck wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    DougNZ wrote:I'm afraid I do not have a lot of sympathy for people who continuously turtle ...

    Turtling is a valid tactic in competition, and something that needs to be studied and practiced as such. It's not something I encourage but if used intelligently has it's place. Personally, I'd like to see turtling not encouraged in the junior (kids) training, but, alas, it is.

    In any case, we have rules we agree to "play" by, and should follow them.

    In this case, the situation in my opinion warranted some sort of discussion by the refs...which may have happened at the deity-table but we don't know.

    Sure it does, but turtling is the stall gate for newaza and I wish there was a rule that allowed for a turtle pin, hence making it dangerous to stall in a face down position.

    I do agree that this situation would warrant a discussion, I think there is more of a hamstring stretch than a kneebar.



    BJJ's rear mount took care of turtling in one clear stroke.

    I recently hosted a friendly tournament between my kids' club and the neighbouring judo club's kids.  We used ju-jitsu rules (not BJJ) which gave them more mat time and more continuous fighting.  However, we did not score rear mounts as the judo kids were not used to them.  The outcome?  The judo kids (and coaches, parents, etc) loved the continuous points fighting.  My kids hated that EVERY time they threw a judo kid, they rolled on their stomach and covered up.  The flow of the match was halted and became very start-stop.  It was very frustrating and served to highlight a fundamental weakness in judo rules and psychology.

    At the very least, turtling should be considered non-combativeness and be penalised.


    Any Judoka who does forward throws will end up on all fours for an infinite number of reasons over the years time allowed to follow up leaves the ugly situation where the one left standing just walks away this is the person who should be penalised for non combativaty.

    Having difficulty with EVERY time kids are thrown they roll on to there stomach what about "control" following throw into newaza its taught from very early on, same as how to take advantage and defend from this common judo position.

    If we are thinking as SD its not wise to go to the ground at all, better to use the individual as a crash mat as they sail through the air.
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    Post by Emanuele2 Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:33 pm

    A French judoka in France is easily forgiven...
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    Post by NBK Thu Feb 13, 2014 12:56 am

    BillC wrote:Dang!  First choking with the bottom of the jacket, now this?


    CK wrote:

    Everything in judo is allowed as long as the ref either doesn't see it or is too stupid to realize.

    If I were you, I would at least try out once using a taser on your opponent. In the best case you get ippon, in the worst case you'll lose by hansoku-make, and might have to revise your future strategy.
    Thanks to you, I got a cattle prod in Texas I wanna try on Billc next time I see him.

    Let me take the liberty of expressing his appreciation to you in advance.  ...

    NBK
    Ben Reinhardt
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    Post by Ben Reinhardt Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:01 am

    afulldeck wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    DougNZ wrote:I'm afraid I do not have a lot of sympathy for people who continuously turtle ...

    Turtling is a valid tactic in competition, and something that needs to be studied and practiced as such. It's not something I encourage but if used intelligently has it's place. Personally, I'd like to see turtling not encouraged in the junior (kids) training, but, alas, it is.

    In any case, we have rules we agree to "play" by, and should follow them.

    In this case, the situation in my opinion warranted some sort of discussion by the refs...which may have happened at the deity-table but we don't know.

    Sure it does, but turtling is the stall gate for newaza and I wish there was a rule that allowed for a turtle pin, hence making it dangerous to stall in a face down position.

    I do agree that this situation would warrant a discussion, I think there is more of a hamstring stretch than a kneebar.

    Sure, stalling is an issue. This one has been beat to death before, the whole issue of stalling in ne waza in Judo, what constitutes "progress" and all that.

    I think the primary way to deal with turtling is to allow more time in ne waza, which is happening, slowly but surely. Judoka respond to that by working more on ne waza, and attacking more in ne waza, turtle and otherwise. I've seen that happening myself at various tournaments, in Canada at least. Many more judoka are cross training in BJJ now, as well, which helps too.

    As a coach, I discourage turtling in little kids, and teach them the tools they need to not turtle as a primary ne waza tactic.
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    Post by Ben Reinhardt Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:07 am

    DougNZ wrote:
    afulldeck wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    DougNZ wrote:I'm afraid I do not have a lot of sympathy for people who continuously turtle ...

    Turtling is a valid tactic in competition, and something that needs to be studied and practiced as such. It's not something I encourage but if used intelligently has it's place. Personally, I'd like to see turtling not encouraged in the junior (kids) training, but, alas, it is.

    In any case, we have rules we agree to "play" by, and should follow them.

    In this case, the situation in my opinion warranted some sort of discussion by the refs...which may have happened at the deity-table but we don't know.

    Sure it does, but turtling is the stall gate for newaza and I wish there was a rule that allowed for a turtle pin, hence making it dangerous to stall in a face down position.

    I do agree that this situation would warrant a discussion, I think there is more of a hamstring stretch than a kneebar.

    BJJ's rear mount took care of turtling in one clear stroke.

    I recently hosted a friendly tournament between my kids' club and the neighbouring judo club's kids.  We used ju-jitsu rules (not BJJ) which gave them more mat time and more continuous fighting.  However, we did not score rear mounts as the judo kids were not used to them.  The outcome?  The judo kids (and coaches, parents, etc) loved the continuous points fighting.  My kids hated that EVERY time they threw a judo kid, they rolled on their stomach and covered up.  The flow of the match was halted and became very start-stop.  It was very frustrating and served to highlight a fundamental weakness in judo rules and psychology.

    At the very least, turtling should be considered non-combativeness and be penalised.

    LOL at "BJJ back mount". That was something I learned in Judo before BJJ was out of Rorion's or whoever's garage in SOCAL.

    Judo rules are not weak for Judo. Best offense against turtle is punching to back of head or kicking in ribs...that's not allowed in BJJ or any other grappling sport that I know of.

    Anyway, I don't like turtling. However, I take a positive view of it in opponents. It's an opportunity for me to attack in ne waza with an advantage. I try to instill that in my students as well.



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    Post by Ben Reinhardt Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:11 am

    NBK wrote:
    BillC wrote:Dang!  First choking with the bottom of the jacket, now this?


    CK wrote:

    Everything in judo is allowed as long as the ref either doesn't see it or is too stupid to realize.

    If I were you, I would at least try out once using a taser on your opponent. In the best case you get ippon, in the worst case you'll lose by hansoku-make, and might have to revise your future strategy.
    Thanks to you, I got a cattle prod in Texas I wanna try on Billc next time I see him.

    Let me take the liberty of expressing his appreciation to you in advance.  ...

    NBK

    I've been TASERED. I'll take a cattle prod over that anytime, unless we are talking drive stun with the TASER. Getting darted and going for a 5 second ride...
    Cichorei Kano
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    Post by Cichorei Kano Thu Feb 13, 2014 3:46 am

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    I've been TASERED. I'll take a cattle prod over that anytime, unless we are talking drive stun with the TASER. Getting darted and going for a 5 second ride...

    Please, don't spare us any details including the bowel control (or absence thereof) ...

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