'Sideways' O-Soto-Gari

I've been reading about Masahiko Kimura recently and saw this pic of him demostrating O-Soto-Gari. Like the thread title says, it is more from the side than what is normally tought.
Does anyone know more about this? It looks like it might actually work better imho.

sydvicious wrote:I've been reading about Masahiko Kimura recently and saw this pic of him demostrating O-Soto-Gari. Like the thread title says, it is more from the side than what is normally tought.
Does anyone know more about this? It looks like it might actually work better imho.

I have written and explained several times on the old forum that ô-soto-gari is the single most incorrectly taught throw in the West. It's something I didn't realize until I moved to Japan. That is not to say that there aren't any different ways to perform ô-soto-gari, no, I am talking about errors, not 'henka'. Kuzushi and control in ô-soto-gari is typically done incorrectly in the West, where there is a tendency to pull sideways, instead of to the left hip (for migi-ô-soto-gari). This is very prominent in Kimura Masahiko's ô-soto-gari. In addition, there is the way Kimura really locks the leg with his reaping leg. I think that direction is not very significant and depends on displacement and action/reaction and debana. In addition, it's probably a limitation of photographic sequences, as suggested by the various film footage that exists.

I have talked to three people who have regularly fought Kimura (I discussed Kimura at length with Ôsawa-sensei, my sensei Hirano also fought Kimura many times during randori, and I talked to another gentleman about 7-8 years ago who was then in his 90s but who had left jûdô, but who too had fought Kimura twice in shiai). All pointed out, if anything, that Kimura was hugely strong. Hirano, who himself was a quite remarkable jûdôka and who still holds the record of defeating 15 in a line-up in the yodan promotional shiai at the Kôdôkan, estimated that Kimura was about 5 times as strong as he. Of course this is a merely anecdotal and romanticized with no measured scientific data, but it gives an idea about how phenomenal Kimura's strength apparently was.

In terms of ô-soto-gari, I also point out Okano's ô-soto-gari, which though different from Kimura, also clearly shows the proper direction of pulling, again making crystal clear that the typical way it is taught in the West is erroneous. One should not be confused by Okano's unusual hairi-kata (entry method) for ô-soto-gari (he uses tsuri-komi movement right-left-right), instead of the far more common direct entry.

Cichorei Kano wrote:

sydvicious wrote:I've been reading about Masahiko Kimura recently and saw this pic of him demostrating O-Soto-Gari. Like the thread title says, it is more from the side than what is normally tought.
Does anyone know more about this? It looks like it might actually work better imho.

I have written and explained several times on the old forum that ô-soto-gari is the single most incorrectly taught throw in the West. It's something I didn't realize until I moved to Japan. That is not to say that there aren't any different ways to perform ô-soto-gari, no, I am talking about errors, not 'henka'. Kuzushi and control in ô-soto-gari is typically done incorrectly in the West, where there is a tendency to pull sideways, instead of to the left hip (for migi-ô-soto-gari). This is very prominent in Kimura Masahiko's ô-soto-gari. In addition, there is the way Kimura really locks the leg with his reaping leg. I think that direction is not very significant and depends on displacement and action/reaction and debana. In addition, it's probably a limitation of photographic sequences, as suggested by the various film footage that exists.

I have talked to three people who have regularly fought Kimura  (I discussed Kimura at length with Ôsawa-sensei, my sensei Hirano also fought Kimura many times during randori, and I talked to another gentleman about 7-8 years ago who was then in his 90s but who had left jûdô, but who too had fought Kimura twice in shiai). All pointed out, if anything, that Kimura was hugely strong. Hirano, who himself was a quite remarkable jûdôka and who still holds the record of defeating 15 in a line-up in the yodan promotional shiai at the Kôdôkan, estimated that Kimura was about 5 times as strong as he. Of course this is a merely anecdotal and romanticized with no measured scientific data, but it gives an idea about how phenomenal Kimura's strength apparently was.

In terms of ô-soto-gari, I also point out Okano's ô-soto-gari, which though different from Kimura, also clearly shows the proper direction of pulling, again making crystal clear that the typical way it is taught in the West is erroneous. One should not be confused by Okano's unusual hairi-kata (entry method) for ô-soto-gari (he uses tsuri-komi movement right-left-right), instead of the far more common direct entry.

That is quite interesting to read...
So, if I understand correct, the way that Kimura did it is more accurate to the way it was supposed to be done?

That looks like a variation on the "driver" style osoto. I think Ben Holmes and Steven Cunningham had a nice series of posts on that, if you run a google search

sydvicious wrote:

That is quite interesting to read...
So, if I understand correct, the way that Kimura did it is more accurate to the way it was supposed to be done?

Correct. Kimura, Okano and many other Japanese sensei despite their various approaches, perform is it as how it should be done.

In this video (extract from a complete DVD) Kanei Iwatsuri, former student of Kimura-sensei, elaborates on ô-soto-gari "Kimura-style", obviously as well as he can replicate it as he is not Kimura.

Thank you, CK. Enlightening post and excellent video.

Attacking to the side is an option available for osoto gari.  The reason Kimura favored this option, IMO, is because he preferred the lapel grip for his hikite.  This is for a variety of reasons for his Judo, but one consequence is that his hikite pull for osoto gari has to be compensated for.  It is more difficult to pull uke's weight down and control the upper body with lapel hikite, so as compensation he changes the angle to use a powerful tsurite punch while pulling forward with the lapel.  This keeps uke planted and utilizes the strength of the lapel grip (direct pulling).   The other consequence is that uke's weight is more flat on his foot, rather than his heel, so Kimura used his heel to help uproot uke's feet.

I once saw Chiaki Ishii demonstrate osoto gari in a similar fashion, and it was a very scary sight.  I was very happy not to be uke.

edit: Upon reflection I think the heel was used because the contact point was much lower than tradition osoto, so instead of the powerful short lever thigh doing the work, you had a long level. Thus you need to recruit your calf muscles which pull more strongly with the foot flexed.

I enjoy going back to my favourite judo books when I get a moment of enlightenment such as CK provided here. Looking at Kawaishi's book, for example, I can see how one could interpret the picture and text to require a strong draw to tori's left; even the slightest of wrapping if tori is to turn slightly outwards, which the text implies.

Sadly, the text in these early books is somewhat scant. That said, they are clearly no substitute for good instruction but with good guidance the clearer message in the books is revealed.

How different so many of Kawaishi's techniques are in his book (when correctly interpreted) from what I was taught in my formative years! O soto gari was all about a big step up, big shoulder bounce, maybe a downwards hikite 'push' to uke's rear and then a big heave-ho reap. I'm glad to say the o soto gari I teach these day is -mostly- correct, based on what CK has shared. I can also explain the difference between o soto gari and o soto otoshi, though I couldn't really as a pupil. The fact that a Kawaishi o soto otoshi used a lifting / hooking leg action may have confused things then but I see now that the purpose is to lock forward the hips in preparation for the otoshi hand movements. The accepted leg action these days, I note, is to place the leg somewhat deeply and strongly between uke's feet.

/Crocodile Dundee/

Sideways? That ain't sideways. *This* is sideways!

/Crocodile Dundee/

sydvicious wrote:I've been reading about Masahiko Kimura recently and saw this pic of him demostrating O-Soto-Gari. Like the thread title says, it is more from the side than what is normally tought.
Does anyone know more about this? It looks like it might actually work better imho.

Looking at it again, I'm reminded of the following video-clip

Creamy creamy baileys wrote:/Crocodile Dundee/

Sideways? That ain't sideways. *This* is sideways!

/Crocodile Dundee/

What exactly do you mean by sideways ?

Ben Reinhardt wrote:

Creamy creamy baileys wrote:/Crocodile Dundee/

Sideways? That ain't sideways. *This* is sideways!

/Crocodile Dundee/

What exactly do you mean by sideways ?

Indeed !

What I mean is that he enters sideways/side-on, closer to how one might enter for ouchi-gari

Creamy creamy baileys wrote:What I mean is that he enters sideways/side-on, closer to how one might enter for ouchi-gari

If you enter sideways for ouchi gari, get ready to fly. (OK, there are exceptions...)

I think what Mr. Okano is doing is using a similar "entry" movement for forward and backwards throws. Whether he does Osoto Gari or another throw depends on the reaction he elicits from uke.

The direction/action of Osoto Gari works basically the same regardless of angle of entry. I think that is what Cichorei Kano was getting at, in part, in his posts.

The angle of entry/type of entry isn't what makes the throw Osoto Gari.

Ben Reinhardt wrote:

Creamy creamy baileys wrote:What I mean is that he enters sideways/side-on, closer to how one might enter for ouchi-gari

If you enter sideways for ouchi gari, get ready to fly. (OK, there are exceptions...)

I think what Mr. Okano is doing is using a similar "entry" movement for forward and backwards throws. Whether he does Osoto Gari or another throw depends on the reaction he elicits from uke.

The direction/action of Osoto Gari works basically the same regardless of angle of entry. I think that is what Cichorei Kano was getting at, in part, in his posts.

The angle of entry/type of entry isn't what makes the throw Osoto Gari.

Indeed, Okano-sensei simply chooses "tsuri-komi" as his preferred entry for ô-soto-gari, uncommon, yes, but a simple application of the fact that there are at least a dozen of differently named entries (tsuri-komi, oi-komi, hiki-dashi, mawari-komi, handô, tobi-komi, etc.) each of which can be used for any throw, though some of them are more unusual choices. Imagine that someone would come in ô-soto-gari wtih mawari-komi entry, which would be even far more unsual, but not impossible, then of course position will have to be adapted to still make that work, but essentially the throw or its principle remains the same. One of the reasons for Okano-sensei's choice is that the man does real jûdô and therefore uses numerous renraku- and renzoku-waza, and tsuri-komi entry is a very neutral entry that allows virtually any throw (even ô-soto-gari, as shown !) without "telephoning" and this right or left. With a classical direct entry ô-soto-gari the options of 'chaining' other techniques with minimal change of one's body position are limited (for example, ô-soto-gari, ô-soto-guruma, hiza-guruma, harai-goshi), and following up with most other techniques requires large changes which is more difficult for maintaining control and kuzushi; it is certainly possible, but most jûdôka will struggel. With tsuri-komi entry most of those option become possible with less large changes in body position and kuzushi. Last July in Montreal during his seminar, Okano-sensei showed the entry a couple of times and he did so in the context of combinations. He emphasized the importance of combinations, also showing how some grips facilitated multiple combinations easier than others (double-handed grip), an he also criticized --albeit subtly-- present day competitive jûdô that has become largely devoid of technical combinations.

Cichorei Kano wrote:

Ben Reinhardt wrote:

Creamy creamy baileys wrote:What I mean is that he enters sideways/side-on, closer to how one might enter for ouchi-gari

If you enter sideways for ouchi gari, get ready to fly. (OK, there are exceptions...)

I think what Mr. Okano is doing is using a similar "entry" movement for forward and backwards throws. Whether he does Osoto Gari or another throw depends on the reaction he elicits from uke.

The direction/action of Osoto Gari works basically the same regardless of angle of entry. I think that is what Cichorei Kano was getting at, in part, in his posts.

The angle of entry/type of entry isn't what makes the throw Osoto Gari.

Indeed, Okano-sensei simply chooses "tsuri-komi" as his preferred entry for ô-soto-gari, uncommon, yes, but a simple application of the fact that there are at least a dozen of differently named entries (tsuri-komi, oi-komi, hiki-dashi, mawari-komi, handô, tobi-komi, etc.) each of which can be used for any throw, though some of them are more unusual choices. Imagine that someone would come in ô-soto-gari wtih mawari-komi entry, which would be even far more unsual, but not impossible, then of course position will have to be adapted to still make that work, but essentially the throw or its principle remains the same. One of the reasons for Okano-sensei's choice is that the man does real jûdô and therefore uses numerous renraku- and renzoku-waza, and tsuri-komi entry is a very neutral entry that allows virtually any throw (even ô-soto-gari, as shown !) without "telephoning" and this right or left. With a classical direct entry ô-soto-gari the options of 'chaining' other techniques with minimal change of one's body position are limited (for example, ô-soto-gari, ô-soto-guruma, hiza-guruma, harai-goshi), and following up with most other techniques requires large changes which is more difficult for maintaining control and kuzushi; it is certainly possible, but most jûdôka will struggel. With tsuri-komi entry most of those option become possible with less large changes in body position and kuzushi. Last July in Montreal during his seminar, Okano-sensei showed the entry a couple of times and he did so in the context of combinations. He emphasized the importance of combinations, also showing how some grips facilitated multiple combinations easier than others (double-handed grip), an he also criticized  --albeit subtly--  present day competitive jûdô that has become largely devoid of technical combinations.

The higher level judoka do that for the most part. One type of entry movement (usually tsurikomi in my experience) dominates. What happens next all depends...

My sensei/coach who I wrote of earlier in "judo Vitruvian Man) thread figured that out as well from observation. More recently, when we had a clinic at our small club with Antoine Valois-Fortier, he touched on the same subject. Same with me a few years ago when I was at a dojo where we had a judoka from Tokai University visiting for a little over a year. I and another yudansha had directly asked him to explain and teach us how to use the same entry movement for various throws..basically what he (the teacher) had done in competition (we saw several of his videos following him through the All Japan Championship eliminations events all the way to where he lost in the semi-finals of the main event). He agreed, and as I believe I have written before on Judo Forum, he explained it to us in detail in both theory and application, and had us start drilling it.

Needless to say, none of us were successful to any degree, despite working diligently on the process. The level of sensitivity, balance, control, and technical proficiency needed is ...stunning. And that doesn't include renraku/zoku waza.

When you wrote "double handed grip" did you mean a double lapel grip, or armpit/lapel grip ? Or a kata-eri or kata -tei type of grip(s)?

The lack of technical combinations is noticeable. However, I wonder if the increase in athleticism plus the much narrower skill gap between opponents in the same weight divisions (relative to Mr. Okano time) is somewhat responsible for that ?

Ben Reinhardt wrote:

When you wrote "double handed grip" did you mean a double lapel grip, or armpit/lapel grip ? Or a kata-eri or kata -tei  type of grip(s)?

The lack of technical combinations is noticeable. However, I wonder if the increase in athleticism plus the much narrower skill gap between opponents in the same weight divisions (relative to Mr. Okano time) is somewhat responsible for that ?

Sorry, for the confusion. When I write on the forum I am also often working on other matters and typing in a variety of languages hence grammar mistakes and typo's. I meant indeed double-lapel grip (he made reference to Ruska, who was my own inspiration for this grip and who trained under Okano), and double armpit grip, which is a more recent invention.

I echo your second comment too.

Cichorei Kano wrote:

Ben Reinhardt wrote:

When you wrote "double handed grip" did you mean a double lapel grip, or armpit/lapel grip ? Or a kata-eri or kata -tei  type of grip(s)?

The lack of technical combinations is noticeable. However, I wonder if the increase in athleticism plus the much narrower skill gap between opponents in the same weight divisions (relative to Mr. Okano time) is somewhat responsible for that ?

Sorry, for the confusion. When I write on the forum I am also often working on other matters and typing in a variety of languages hence grammar mistakes and typo's. I meant indeed double-lapel grip (he made reference to Ruska, who was my own inspiration for this grip and who trained under Okano), and double armpit grip, which is a more recent invention.

I echo your second comment too.

I like the double lapel or armpit grip...I find it does require a finer level of control (maybe different) level of control in many ways from the standard sleeve and lapel. It seems to focus much more of my attention/awareness on my core and the "bending the back" sort of positioning, especially to keep uke from slipping away to the side.

I imagine you sitting at your computer like some sort of mad scientist...

Ben Reinhardt wrote:

I imagine you sitting at your computer like some sort of mad scientist...

Yes ...

Cichorei Kano wrote:

Ben Reinhardt wrote:

I imagine you sitting at your computer like some sort of mad scientist...

Yes ...

Yep, that's it, exactly !

As I understand it, assuming I am performing a right handed o-soto-gari, it will appear more 'sideways' if my opponent is in migi-shizentai or migi-jigotai (right foot forward.)

In this situation, if tori is also standing with his right foot forward, then the left foot does not necessarily have to make a large or deep step past ukes right foot, but instead 'shift'  and point to the left as tori drops his center of gravity and the tsurite and hikite act as already discussed earlier in the thread. This of course would be a static and quite unrealistic demonstration of the technique.

However, if I am performing a right handed o-soto-gari on an opponent in hidari-shizentai or hidari-jigotai (left foot forward) then it will appear less 'sideways' and more 'straight.' In this situation tori makes the commonly seen deep lunging step with his left foot to a position adjacent or deeper than uke's right foot. This tends to be how I see o-soto-gari taught, particularly as a way of attacking a retreating opponent, which tends to confuse people as they try and apply this method/direction of entry to situations that do not warrant it, believing that all o-soto-gari's are performed in a 'straight line'.

I may not have explained myself well here, perhaps if this causes confusion I will attempt to elaborate.

I have been fortunate to be part of two classes on the subject of O Soto Gari, one taken by Shinichi Shinohara and the second by Mr Daigo himself.

In both classes we were told that O Soto Gari is probably the first techniques we ever learned as beginners, and quite possibly we used it if we had been involved in "school yard fisticuffs" as kids....both of which are of course true !!

We were also informed at even though it is among the first techniques taught....it is one of the hardest techniques to master.

For anyone who's interested, here's a video showing Kimura's ô-soto-gari (at about the 20 second mark):

It's really appliable to attack to the side with osoto gari.Let's look at it.
1)you bend the spine,which locks opponent.ready for the throw.
2)even if you miss the throw you are almost ready for ashi guruma or harai goshi(considering you're close enough for a half hip throw).
3)you can even go for a side osoto makikomi(spinning all the way to go to the front osoto makikomi seems kinda too much for me).