My MMA experience so far .....

So I decided I needed to get fitter , apart from one club the Judo in my current location most of them barely caused me to break a sweat and with my stomach swelling to unacceptable middle age proportions I was resolute that action was needed.
The MMA club was in the same hall as the Judo club. As I began my first session a photograph of Prof. Kano , cold and aloof, stared down from the wall at me accusingly. I am sure many the Judo clergy will be tutting already but allow me to relate my folly......
For me the pleasure would be learning to adapt the last 7 years of Judo (and about 5.5 of mainly Gi Ju jitsu) into a no - gi context and learning a bit of striking. I did not go into the training session with a "I can take any of you down" mentality but rather with an open mind eager to learn something new.
I have to say not having a gi completely threw me at first I have to learn new ways of gripping. Footsweeps such as ko ouchi Gari seemed to work on all but the two best in the club though.
Training session 4 - the main coach pulls me aside and says "if you want to get any good at grappling you will have to quit Judo " he says.
The main coach is very good and I have only 4 nights experience without a gi remember .
"How long have you been doing Judo ?" he asks
" 7 years"
"see seven years and you cant even take me down - Judo is shit - I am killing you"
" but ... but I have gold medals and everything " I splutter
" see just proves my point, Judo is all strength and no technique - I know I've done it"
"depends on the club " I mutter
"this club" he says
I didnt want to slag my own club off so I kept quiet but the truth is Judo in my current country isn't the best even in the best clubs strength is often used to compensate for lack of good technique. I wish he had traveled and experienced beautiful technical Judo that works almost by magic - but I think my retorts would have fallen on deaf ears. So I stay quiet -and simmer and seeth.
I am angry but keep quiet - I don't want to start an argument on a mat with someone I barely know and is quite capable of beating the crap out of me. However thoughts, rebellious thoughts, swam through my mind. Firstly - its not fair to judge Judo by my performance in any circumstances - I am not the best, secondly its not fair to judge my judo even if Ive been doing it 7 years as Id only been doing it 4 days without a gi. Thirdly it seemed a bit rich to be slagging off the other martial art that shared the same training hall as him and , as I later found out, with a teacher he had learnt Judo with himself for 2 years.
I thought Id give the class one more go - I didn't want to just give up - but I was aware that continuing training with this person could be dodgy on many levels.
I went back and he said " where have you trained BJJ ? " -
"many places" I reply
"name one" he says , so I rattled off a few - but it was if he was questioning that I had been honest that I had done BJJ , as if he was saying that it was ok to do Judo for 7 years and still be crap but not BJJ.
After class I explained how Judo had helped me turn my life around and that I would not quit it, nor did I feel it would be fair on my Judo teacher (who shared the same building) to suddenly disappear to another club. e seemed to agree with those sentiments and agreed that if I loved Judo I should keep doing it - just he didn't think I would improve in mma.
I was really upset by this whole scenario - but I was getting enormous benefits from the physical side of the training. In just a few training sessions my belly had waved the white flag and retreated back to almost six pack level. However psychologically it was not helping me.
I was really in two minds as to whether to go back. So much of my life has been structured around Judo and to have some one insult something that I was so passionate about was well..... hard to explain.
However bad I felt I decided I would feel worse if I didn't go back to the training session. So I tried it one more time. This time there were no more comments and the coach was very friendly this time, perhaps he was surprised to see me, besides I was getting used to the no gi situation and was using ashi waza to take down most people including one of his best students (all of whom were very friendly and good sports) . I still couldnt get near the main teacher and he still hammered me on the ground but his shots were becoming less effective.
I am glad I went back - not to prove myself or Judo , but I felt better for not just abandoning the mat. I will not convince anyone of the worthiness of Judo by talking to them - but I believe just by letting myself be bent by idiocy and then springing back calmy and resolutely rather than snapping or getting angry shows a bit of the psychology of Judo.
Although Judo is my main priority and I will not be giving it up anytime soon, I will continue doing MMA for the time being as I like the fitness but my conclusion so far is :
Physically its great but psychologically it does not have the mutual respect and welfare part down so well (sure even a few Judo clubs struggle with that). There is lip service paid to this concept but it isn't as deep as it is in Judo. Perhaps not all MMA clubs are like that I look forward to finding out. At the end of the day Judo for me is about making better human beings - the culture of MMA seems different perhaps a bit more macho - but my body likes the training so I will continue for now. Judo has thousands of years of culture behind it - maybe pankration did too - but MMA is very young in terms of culture its almost like the brash teenager of martial arts dismissive of "bullshit" and only interested in effective technique - and lets face it it does work - but I also wonder how much internet forums have influenced the culture of MMA negatively.
Also at the end of the day in todays world martial arts are not a lot of use against a gun so there real value is not only in effective techniques but creating more useful, educated and effective members of society - something that is not always evident in MMA and might even be regarded as bullshido.
MMA does have a refreshing honesty about it - so perhaps some sort of mutual benefit between traditional martial arts and MMA may be possible in the long run - perhaps MMA will invigorate Judo and Judo will temper MMA - we shall see.

MMA is a quasi-art but is mainly a sport.  Like rugby, it has a game to prepare for and a job to do within the sport's rules.  Don't forget that.  Also, like rugby, it is a young man's game and as one approaches middle age, one's role moves from competing to coaching.  Being a fighting art and young man's game, there is plenty of testosterone floating about but also plenty of matehood.  Life development is probably not so obvious.

One of the things I like about no-gi fighting is that it is subtly simple.  Complicated moves don't work with limited grips and don't work in high-stress environments.  Also, theoretical moves only last about one training session; after that they either work or do not.  That is part of the honesty that you speak of.  "Break balance to front corner with neck hook; turn in; hip throw to ground; scarf hold and arm bar across thigh ... really?  Let's try it out.  Keep your guard up, though!"

Another thing about the simplicity of no-gi is that one gets a very good understanding of balance / kuzushi.  Pulling from the lapel in the centre of the chest is an efficient way of tipping someone.  Having to hook at the edges of the chest, where those anchors bend, is not so efficient and requires different approaches.  Controlling uke's hips becomes more important for balance taking.  All-in-all, techniques evolved for no-gi are surprisingly sophisticated and relate well back to judo, giving a different vantage point on grappling.

One last thing I like is that, like most other sports, assigning a 'grade' to someone is not important.  Either they fight well or they do not.  They can either control people their level, or people who have been going longer, or they cannot. Either the instructor can hold his own or he cannot. That honesty is grounding, too.

Thank you for sharing your experiences.

Thanks Doug - that all makes sense .
I do think it will take more than a couple of sessions to adjust some techniques to no gi though. I am getting used to round the back of the kneck, underhook etc. I wouldnt really want to be turning in so much either - giving up my back, unless I could do it very fast. Footsweeps are a winner though and they dont seem familiar with them. Kazure Kesa gatame seems to work better than Kesa Gatame too - amazing what not having a sleave to grip onto makes !
Young mans game - well mad dogs and all that ..... but I dont thin the mutual benefit thing is about age - Judo has done a lot for kids as well and you see it in Boxing as well at all ages- the idea that the discipline of a fighting sport should create men of honour, gentlemen , chivalry etc etc
.....but yeah, testosterone - so that's what that smell is. eugh.

Gus wrote:Thanks Doug - that all makes sense .
I do think it will take more than a couple of sessions to adjust techniques to no gi though. I am getting used to round the back of the kneck, underhook etc. I wouldnt really want to be turning in so much though - giving up my back, unless I could do it very fast. Footsweeps are a winner though and they dont seem familiar with them. Kazure Kesa gatame seems to work better than Kesa Gatame too - amazing what not having a sleave to grip onto makes !
Young mans game - well mad dogs and all that .....

I am lucky in that I have trained for almost two decades in a ju-jitsu system that has evolved to cope with modern fighting in a way that is very similar to MMA, although the evolution was quite independent. That said, our focus is still on street and not cage, so we do not have rules dictating our choices of technique. Throat hits and groin kicks are common place in our dojo (and normally announced with a burst of laughter!). The more senior of us came from traditional ju-jitsu so we have a lot of techniques to draw on. Some work, many work with modification, and many are almost unworkable. That realisation is very sobering.

One difference we have with MMA is that we take a longer view on our ju-jitsu. It is still ju-jitsu for life. It continues to embrace efficiency and honesty, and 'generosity of spirit' is a core value.

We also retain many similarities with judo. The use of chest, waist and hips is key to our movement. Changes in height structure is important. Drawing uke to tori's centre and using the body to manipulate uke's balance, rather than just the arms, works well. However, rather than training people to stop stiff-arming and using defensive postures, we work around those things because they are a reality that we have to cope with in the real world.

We also have to manage the mid-distance - that distance where judo throws from - because it is also the main striking range. Clinching and throwing from the clinch therefore takes on a whole new light and I appreciate entries from angles a lot more than I did doing traditional ju-jitsu and judo. You are right that leg techniques work well but so do 'turning' throws when applied from the side.

Groundfighting is a whole new thing when strikes are introduced, isn't it? We are similar to MMA in that we want to get on top quickly but we differ in that we do not want to stay on the ground. Have you every tried fighting to your feet from yoko shiho gatame / cross mount when uke is wanting to keep you on the ground? While protecting your groin and avoiding teeth?

I'm glad you swallowed the insults and went back for another MMA lesson.

[quote="DougNZ"]

Gus wrote:Thanks Doug - that all makes sense .

Groundfighting is a whole new thing when strikes are introduced, isn't it?  We are similar to MMA in that we want to get on top quickly but we differ in that we do not want to stay on the ground.  Have you every tried fighting to your feet from yoko shiho gatame / cross mount when uke is wanting to keep you on the ground?  While protecting your groin and avoiding teeth?

I'm glad you swallowed the insults and went back for another MMA lesson.

Indeed, you can really see which techniques are vulnerable or not. And yes I am glad I went back too .

DougNZ wrote:
We also retain many similarities with judo.  The use of chest, waist and hips is key to our movement.  Changes in height structure is important.  Drawing uke to tori's centre and using the body to manipulate uke's balance, rather than just the arms, works well.  However, rather than training people to stop stiff-arming and using defensive postures, we work around those things because they are a reality that we have to cope with in the real world.  

We also have to manage the mid-distance - that distance where judo throws from - because it is also the main striking range.  Clinching and throwing from the clinch therefore takes on a whole new light and I appreciate entries from angles a lot more than I did doing traditional ju-jitsu and judo.  You are right that leg techniques work well but so do 'turning' throws when applied from the side.

Absolutely. Turning throws work extremely well from the side. The problem, of course, is to get to that "T" position without getting hit. As well as being confident with your foot work to step in a get the under hook and over hook, even if one is stiff arming you. However, once your in that position your attacker is essentially on your hip and asking to be thrown.

Judo dudes invariably perform way below their level of skill when either the rule set is expanded and/or the gi is removed.

This is pretty common hence the impression that Judo is crap, it's not, the way it is taught is usually crap. Along the way in my experince Judo became about gi manipulation rather than control and throw of the body, hence the big shock when stepping into another arena.

Dougs comments of parallels to rugby are quite valid, once you have cardio endurance the mma becomes a lot easier however you can never get younger so there is an inherent limitation to mma training.

On the history point most mma has wrestling and boxing as it's roots so its history is way older than you may imagine, quite older than the instructor imagines also.

On Judo and mma technicals you need to forget the fancy judo tournament grips, have a look at the grips in the nage no kata, it's all under hooks, they can't grt you back from that.

Cheers

I was wondering when you were going to join the discussion, Ricebale; you being the most diversely trained and experienced of us here ...

DougNZ wrote:I was wondering when you were going to join the discussion, Ricebale; you being the most diversely trained and experienced of us here ...

Dunno never met anyone here but I do love my spices they is the variety of life

Look at these judo guys adapting a tech, might tighter no gi, the Rice Bale throw, enjoy

Ricebale wrote:Judo dudes invariably perform way below their level of skill when either the rule set is expanded and/or the gi is removed.

This is pretty common hence the impression that Judo is crap, it's not, the way it is taught is usually crap. Along the way in my experince Judo became about gi manipulation rather than control and throw of the body, hence the big shock when stepping into another arena.

Dougs comments of parallels to rugby are quite valid, once you have cardio endurance the mma becomes a lot easier however you can never get younger so there is an inherent limitation to mma training.

On the history point most mma has wrestling and boxing as it's roots so its history is way older than you may imagine, quite older than the instructor imagines also.

Sure wrestling and Boxing are ancient (pankration too) and I do think they can make a positive impact on the community - there was one of those Ross Kemp things recently showing how boxing was keeping kids out of horrific gang warfare. I just get the impression that MMA though its root arts are ancient is still "finding its feet" ho ho ho. Sorry.
Anyway Im sure it varies club to club - but everything here is "douche " and "dude" like they've just downloaded the Bullshido forum into their minds - no harm in it though I guess.
My cardio is fine - I actually outlast most of the kids - I have resorted to things like swimming in the sea all through winter and the like - they find it hard to keep up with me - roll on video game generation :)Hopefully by the time I reach 70 young people will barely be using their bodies at all with direct neural interfaces with the web etc - leveling the playing field once more.
Not being able to grip a gi is definitely going to force me to use my hips more I think. Few odd things - blood on the mats, when I inform the instructor he just shrugs (real men dont care about blood diseases ?) . On the whole really enjoying it though.....

Hey dude, for your enjoyment I took some video of my class tonight, we are training for a variety of combat sports in the one lesson. I note the cardio endurance difference to the average local Judo club but that said Judo squad training is harder. These guys train twice a week with me and either do BJJ, Judo, rugby or boxing elsewhere.

There are experienced Judoka here, beginners and people I trained from scratch. I didn't put any groundwork in but we were doing arm bars from the back after a pick up and dump throw (rear bear hug lift to turtle)

Like it has been mentioned above every MMA class can be very different depending on the instructors background, you are correct about the sports youth, I've been training in MMA in my country since the early 90's and that is it's first appearance here.

Cheers

I like the idea of no-gi judo as at least an occasional supplement.  I think I've posted this one before but it's good to see again (the voice in the background is the legendary shooto-fighter & coach Erik Paulson)

Creamy creamy baileys wrote:I like the idea of no-gi judo as at least an occasional supplement.  I think I've posted this one before but it's good to see again (the voice in the background  is the legendary shooto-fighter & coach Erik Paulson)

"Bury the Throw" cool, I like the terminology I will add that, good combat mentality

Creamy creamy baileys wrote:I like the idea of no-gi judo as at least an occasional supplement.  I think I've posted this one before but it's good to see again (the voice in the background  is the legendary shooto-fighter & coach Erik Paulson)

Nice find. This is very similar to how I train and teach for no gi as well. You will notice that at 1:05ish this individual has move to what I call the "T" position. This is typically our start position for no-gi. Not only can you do all the forward throws that are demonstrated in this video, but you also have all the throws to the rear and side, as well.

The single arm Tai otoshi and uki otoshi (which was not demonstrated) are very hard to get once uke is sweaty because you need strong wrist control.

afulldeck wrote:
The single arm Tai otoshi and uki otoshi (which was not demonstrated) are very hard to get once uke is sweaty because you need strong wrist control.

I noticed the wrist grab used a lot in both this video and Ricebale's. We almost always use a hook at the lower tricep instead of the wrist. This gives more direct control over the shoulders and eliminates movement and space that the elbow hinge creates. It also gives a stronger purchase and a tighter wrap, once it is pulled into the armpit / hip. If the opponent tries to pull free, we can use their pull to go into elbow rolls and elbow drops for a takedown.

Ricebale wrote:

Hey dude, for your enjoyment I took some video of my class tonight, we are training for a variety of combat sports in the one lesson. I note the cardio endurance difference to the average local Judo club but that said Judo squad training is harder. These guys train twice a week with me and either do BJJ, Judo, rugby or boxing elsewhere.

There are experienced Judoka here, beginners and people I trained from scratch. I didn't put any groundwork in but we were doing arm bars from the back after a pick up and dump throw (rear bear hug lift to turtle)

Like it has been mentioned above every MMA class can be very different depending on the instructors background, you are correct about the sports youth, I've been training in MMA in my country since the early 90's and that is it's first appearance here.

Cheers

Nice gym you got there . I liked that kosoto gake ? that he was doing there. Things have got a lot better now Ive got used to the grips and Ive started putting my judo into action - even got a "beutiful" from the coach today doing a sasai on someone. Underhooks are definately pretty necessary Im realising....

I have NEVER, NEVER in my life been able to pull off a left handed Tai otoshi in Judo - yet for some strange reason it seems to work better for me than almost anything else without the gi - go figure !

Gus wrote:I have NEVER, NEVER in my life been able to pull off a left handed Tai otoshi in Judo - yet for some strange reason it seems to work better for me than almost anything else without the gi - go figure !

Because you are using hooks rather than grips (I'm guessing), you have to bring uke in that much closer than in judo. Following on, no-gi tai otoshi requires the engagement of the body a lot more than the gi throw. Obviously, you can't rely just on the hands. It's for this reason that I think no-gi grappling can be of great benefit to judoka.

You probably find you are throwing a lot more sideways, too, are you?

DougNZ wrote:

Gus wrote:I have NEVER, NEVER in my life been able to pull off a left handed Tai otoshi in Judo - yet for some strange reason it seems to work better for me than almost anything else without the gi - go figure !

Because you are using hooks rather than grips (I'm guessing), you have to bring uke in that much closer than in judo.  Following on, no-gi tai otoshi requires the engagement of the body a lot more than the gi throw. Obviously, you can't rely just on the hands. It's for this reason that I think no-gi grappling can be of great benefit to judoka.

You probably find you are throwing a lot more sideways, too, are you?  

Well sasai was always one of my favourite throws - but yes - with one or two underhooks that works really well to the side (if thats what you mean ?)