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NBK
Jonesy
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    Gonosen-no-kata - Walsh/Moore

    Jonesy
    Jonesy


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    Gonosen-no-kata - Walsh/Moore Empty Gonosen-no-kata - Walsh/Moore

    Post by Jonesy Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:06 am

    Here is a performance of the Gonosen-no-kata by the skilled Welsh judoka John Walsh (6 dan) and Geoff Moore (5 dan).

    NBK
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    Gonosen-no-kata - Walsh/Moore Empty Re: Gonosen-no-kata - Walsh/Moore

    Post by NBK Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:07 am

    That's interesting ...never seen before.

    Is the slow motion a video technique or did they really demo that slowly? That's an impressive display of control by both gents.

    I don't get going into seiza after near every throw. Seems out of place to me, but that's nothing.
    Jonesy
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    Post by Jonesy Thu Apr 10, 2014 8:29 am

    I know both these gentlemen and their late, great inspirational sensei Graham Wright - a disciple of Geoff Gleeson.  Graham, John and Geoff, with others, were part of a small core of judoka who kept the kata flame burning bright in the UK and especially Wales in the bleak days when the BJA totally decried "theory" and especially kata.

    In my formative days in Wales all three men were an inspiration to me and I still have to this day some of the handouts that Graham Wright gave to me on kata courses. I now use them in my own teachings. Graham, John and Geoff were multiple medalists and kata champions in the days long long before kata tournaments became as prolific as they are now. Also in those days kata championships were more about demonstrating before a knowledgable panel and getting feedback to improve, than the nonsensical salami-sliced marking system of today.

    As to this rendition of Gonosen-no-kata, well there is no standardised method of performing it, and considerable latitude is allowed.  John and Geoff are showing the most popular variant in the UK, where Uke first throws Tori at normal speed, after which Uke attempts to throw again in slow motion but Tori counters both in slow-motion (demonstrating the precise counter technique) and then at normal speed.


    Last edited by Jonesy on Thu Apr 10, 2014 5:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
    NBK
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    Gonosen-no-kata - Walsh/Moore Empty Re: Gonosen-no-kata - Walsh/Moore

    Post by NBK Thu Apr 10, 2014 11:03 am

    That is impressive.

    Thanks for the expanded explanation.

    NBK
    Cichorei Kano
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    Gonosen-no-kata - Walsh/Moore Empty Re: Gonosen-no-kata - Walsh/Moore

    Post by Cichorei Kano Thu Apr 10, 2014 12:33 pm

    NBK wrote:That's interesting ...never seen before.

    Is the slow motion a video technique or did they really demo that slowly?  That's an impressive display of control by both gents.

    I don't get going into seiza after near every throw. Seems out of place to me, but that's nothing.

    You raise an important point from a scholarly point of view and I agree with it. It is not something typically done in jûdô but rather something you see in the kata of some koryû, where they take these particular kamae after each exercise (Tenjin Shin'yô-ryû and Sekiguchi-ryû are very characteristic).

    In reflecting about further my scholarly work into this kata these are the kinds of things I would need to seek out. As Jonesy points out a true standard lacks probably because the kata is not a Kôdôkan kata. In that respect the original documentation gains so much important, namely knowing how it was originally done in the days it was created or when performed by its creator(s) ? In the absence of being able to satisfactorily address this, I am stuck.


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    Gonosen-no-kata - Walsh/Moore Dry

    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
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    finarashi
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    Gonosen-no-kata - Walsh/Moore Empty Re: Gonosen-no-kata - Walsh/Moore

    Post by finarashi Thu Apr 10, 2014 4:04 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    .... As Jonesy points out a true standard lacks probably because the kata is not a Kôdôkan kata. In that respect the original documentation gains so much important, namely knowing how it was originally done in the days it was created or when performed by its creator(s) ?  In the absence of being able to satisfactorily address this, I am stuck.
    You could always quote "My old sensei XXX" as source. Where you insert any high level Judoka (Mifune?) Who you claim to have practcied with for decades (at least spiritually as the physical and temporal distance could have been quite large). This seems to be the way to solve these issues in most Judo books.

    P.S. Just remeber to make very vague and scant information otherwise those smartxxx in the web will try to bash you.


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    NBK
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    Gonosen-no-kata - Walsh/Moore Empty Re: Gonosen-no-kata - Walsh/Moore

    Post by NBK Thu Apr 10, 2014 6:11 pm

    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    NBK wrote:That's interesting ...never seen before.

    Is the slow motion a video technique or did they really demo that slowly?  That's an impressive display of control by both gents.

    I don't get going into seiza after near every throw. Seems out of place to me, but that's nothing.

    You raise an important point from a scholarly point of view and I agree with it. It is not something typically done in jûdô but rather something you see in the kata of some koryû, where they take these particular kamae after each exercise (Tenjin Shin'yô-ryû and Sekiguchi-ryû are very characteristic).

    In reflecting about further my scholarly work into this kata these are the kinds of things I would need to seek out. As Jonesy points out a true standard lacks probably because the kata is not a Kôdôkan kata. In that respect the original documentation gains so much important, namely knowing how it was originally done in the days it was created or when performed by its creator(s) ?  In the absence of being able to satisfactorily address this, I am stuck.

    Actually going into seiza after each technique is wrong from every angle I can imagine. The techniques don't start in seiza, so that's not the reason.

    The judo kata practice recovery from a supine (thrown or pull down, etc.) position with zanshin, situational awareness, and if reasonable, showing appropriate courtesy towards kamiza, the front / upper position / whatever (i.e., don't show your backside to the kamiza!) but that's about it.

    There are koryu jujutsu in which both uke and tori make final kamae towards each other as a sign of completion (I guess), but I've never seen where one member goes into seiza continually. And I've seen just about everything, I reckon.

    NBK
    Cichorei Kano
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    Gonosen-no-kata - Walsh/Moore Empty Re: Gonosen-no-kata - Walsh/Moore

    Post by Cichorei Kano Fri Apr 11, 2014 1:11 am

    finarashi wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:
    .... As Jonesy points out a true standard lacks probably because the kata is not a Kôdôkan kata. In that respect the original documentation gains so much important, namely knowing how it was originally done in the days it was created or when performed by its creator(s) ?  In the absence of being able to satisfactorily address this, I am stuck.
    You could always quote "My old sensei XXX" as source. Where you insert any high level Judoka (Mifune?) Who you claim to have practcied with for decades (at least spiritually as the physical and temporal distance could have been quite large). This seems to be the way to solve these issues in most Judo books.

    P.S. Just remeber to make very vague and scant information otherwise those smartxxx in the web will try to bash you.

    "Back in my days when Kanô and me used to have ice cream together ... and after I had been an uchi-deshi of Abe Kenshirô, Mifune, Isogai, Nagaoka, Yamashita, Hirano, Michigami, Yokoyama ... and I had just won my 23rd consecutive All Japan Championship while weighing just 50 kg and being no more than 1.49 cm tall ... and I had just declined to play the main role in Sanshirô Sugata when asked by Akira Kurosawa ... "  Cool 


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    Gonosen-no-kata - Walsh/Moore Dry

    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
    Cichorei Kano
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    Gonosen-no-kata - Walsh/Moore Empty Re: Gonosen-no-kata - Walsh/Moore

    Post by Cichorei Kano Fri Apr 11, 2014 1:12 am

    NBK wrote:
    Actually going into seiza after each technique is wrong from every angle I can imagine.

    NBK

    Well, yes, but some of us are also trying to be nice !  tongue 


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    Gonosen-no-kata - Walsh/Moore Dry

    "The world is a republic of mediocrities, and always was." (Thomas Carlyle)
    "Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way." (Blaise Pascal)
    "Quand on essaie, c'est difficile. Quand on n'essaie pas, c'est impossible" (Guess Who ?)
    "I am never wrong. Once I thought I was, and that was a mistake."
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    Geoffmooresyo


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    Gonosen-no-kata - Walsh/Moore Empty Re: Gonosen-no-kata - Walsh/Moore

    Post by Geoffmooresyo Mon May 12, 2014 10:59 am

    We went into seiza because we didn't know any better, we learned this from a book with a little help from the late Graham Wright. It was as Jonsey said, an attempt to keep kata fresh and alive in the uk back in the day, nowadays people are better informed and the internet allows everyone to see expert performances from well informed and capable judoka. It's just two old fellas doing a bit of judo, nothing more nothing less and I'm a bit embarrassed by it. Nevertheless, thanks for the kind words and the criticisms which are, correct and and better informed than we were at the time Smile
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    tafftaz


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    Gonosen-no-kata - Walsh/Moore Empty Re: Gonosen-no-kata - Walsh/Moore

    Post by tafftaz Mon May 12, 2014 10:34 pm

    Geoff, still the best version I have seen personally. I have still got the dvd you sent me years ago and still reference it for my own means.

    Me and Jonesy are in a unique position here in that we have both seen you perform kata in person.
    So we can both appreciate your skill level and passion for what you were doing.
    I know from experience that yourself and John were amongst a handful of senior judoka who were keeping kata alive in Wales at a time when shiai was everything.
    NBK
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    Gonosen-no-kata - Walsh/Moore Empty Re: Gonosen-no-kata - Walsh/Moore

    Post by NBK Mon May 12, 2014 10:50 pm

    Geoffmooresyo wrote:We went into seiza because we didn't know any better, we learned this from a book with a little help from the late Graham Wright. It was as Jonsey said, an attempt to keep kata fresh and alive in the uk back in the day, nowadays people are better informed and the internet allows everyone to see expert performances from well informed and capable judoka. It's just two old fellas doing a bit of judo, nothing more nothing less and I'm a bit embarrassed by it. Nevertheless, thanks for the kind words and the criticisms which are, correct and and better informed than we were at the time Smile
    Moore sensei,

    As I wrote, the seiza was nothing - do it or not.

    The slow motion body control is really impressive - certainly nothing of which to be embarrassed. I really like that aspect of showing how everything fits together.

    I honestly wondered if it was a Matrix-like special effect. I have a hard time simply hanging on to anything of my partner Lurch, much less lowering him to the mats while maintaining great posture. Usually I just dump him.

    NBK


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