Interview with Kawaishi Mikinosuke (1955)

Sorry guys, but the interview is in French. If there are things you do not understand, there are several bilingual Canadians on this forum, and also other people who are fluent in French.

If felt it more important to provide the accurate text than to put it in Google Translate and put a text on here of which half exists of gibberish that does not make any sense. The interviewer was a certain Robert Picard:


"Maître Kawaishi m'a reçu avec vraiment une grande gentillesse. Lorsque je lui ai expliqué que j'allais l'interviewer pour "Judo - Presse" il m'a dit "ha ha, article contre Maître Kawaishi ?" et il a largement souri lorsque que je lui ai dit "non ni pour ni contre, seulement la vérité" et je reste persuadé que si Maître Kawaishi a commis "certaines erreurs" la faute ne doit pas retomber uniquement sur ses épaules, comme beaucoup ont tendance à le faire mais surtout sur celles et ceux qui l'ont monté sur le piédestal où il n'a pas tellement chercher à y aller.

Certes Maître Kawaishi est un homme passionnément avide de vivre, avec tous ses défauts et de grandes qualités. Tant que ceux qui l'entouraient lui ont offert des plateaux d'or il s'est servi le plus largement qu'il a pu. En bon judoka il a utilisé au mieux "minimum d'efforts, maximum de bénéfices". Maintenant on doit se dire " il ne fallait pas le laisser faire ", car chacun aurait fait de même.

Même actuellement sur le plan de la technique, à plusieurs reprises, Maître Kawaishi était décidé à accepter l'admission de la méthode du Kodokan à la F.F.J.J. lors de pourparlers pour que monsieur Chalier ait la présidence de la FFJJ. Et s'il est revenu sur ses positions c'est sur le conseil de ceux qui prétendent maintenant avoir été pour la coexistence des deux méthodes au sein du Judo Français.

M Kawaishi quel âge avez vous ?
-oh ! très mauvais..... 36 ans, ha ! ha ! Jamais demander âge !

A quel âge avait vous commencer le Judo ?
-à 8 ans à l'école.

Est ce obligatoire au Japon de commencer si jeune ?
- non, c'est obligatoire qu'au lycée à partir de 13 ans. L'on choisit alors entre le Kendo ou le Judo.
-
De quelle partie du Japon êtes vous ?
-de Himeji, à 40 km du coté de Kobé

Quel Dan aviez vous en quittant le Japon ?
- j’étais 4° Dan

Avez vous connu Maître Kano ?
-oui j'ai été 6 ans au Kodokan. D’abord 5 ans lorsque j'étais à l'université de Waseda, et 1 an lorsque j'ai eu un poste à l'Hôtel de Ville de Tokyo. Mr Kano ne travaillait plus et faisait seulement des conférences techniques.

Avez vous participez à des championnats au Japon ?
-non, car à cette époque il n'y avait pas encore de championnats. Ce n'était pas l'idée de Mr Kano qui ne permettait Shiai qu'au Kodokan

Quels etaient les champions célèbres à l'époque ?
-M. Nagaoka, qui était 7 Dan et Mr. Mifune, qui était 6 Dan.

Nous avons pensé en France que M. Kurihara 9° Dan avait été votre professeur ?
-non, nous étions seulement au même collège et M. Kurihara était de 4 ans mon aîné.

Pouvez vous raconter votre vie depuis votre départ du Japon ?
-Je suis arrivé à San Diego, Californie (à 21 ans) où pendant un an j'ai été un étudiant au collège. Ensuite je suis allé à l'université de Colombia à New York. Dans la journée j'étudiais et le soir je donnais des leçons au "New York Judo Club" que j'avais formé. J'ai fait cela pendant 4 ans. En 1931 j'ai visité l'Amérique de Sud en touriste. Brésil, Sao Paulo. l'Amazonie, mais sans faire de Judo. En octobre 1931 je suis allé à Londres. J'ai été professeur de Judo à l'Université d'Oxford. Ensuite j'ai fondé «l'Anglo-Japanese-Judo-Club »à Londres.
Le 1 octobre 1935 je suis arrivé à Paris. J'ai fondé le "Club Franco-Japonais " de Judo et pendant deux années j'ai passé de durs moments. Mais grâce au journal sportif de l'époque, dont le Directeur était un ami le Journal "L'Auto" il y eut beaucoup de publicité autour de moi, ce qui fit le plus grand bien au Judo.
A cette époque pendant une année M. Feldenkrais prit des leçons particulières avec moi. Et ensuite il fonda avec Bonet-Maury le Jiu-Jitsu Club de France
.
Quand avez vous passé vos différents grades ?
-parti au Japon 4° Dan j'ai eu mon 5° Dan en arrivant en France. Puis mon 6° Dan toujours en France. C'est à mon retour du Japon que j'ai eu mon 7° Dan.

Quelles ont étés vos souffrances pendant la guerre ?
-En 1944, sur l'ordre de l'Ambassadeur du Japon, tous les Japonais se sont rendus à Berlin, ensuite nous avons été envoyés par les Russes dans le Mantchouko où nous retrouvâmes des milliers de Japonais. Nous n'étions pas dans des camps mais nous menions une vie très rude. Après la fin de la guerre, au début juin 1945, nous avons dû abandonner toutes nos affaires personnelles pour pouvoir être rapatriés au Japon.

On nous a beaucoup parlé des combats que vous livriez avec les catcheurs ?
-oh ! il y a si longtemps que je me rappelle plus de rien.....

On nous a parlé aussi de votre combat contre le champion du monde de boxe Dempsey.
-ce n'était pas un combat, simplement une démonstration amicale qui a eu lieu au New York Atletic-Club.

Pourquoi avez vous crée DOJO-UNION ?
-le but de cette association était d'avoir des contacts plus étroits avec mes élèves, que j'avais pratiquement perdu de vue du fait que les cours de C. N. étaient dirigés par MM Michigami et Awazu. Nous nous réunissions le dimanche matin. Je leur expliquais le Judo ou je répondais à leurs questions. Mais bien vite - comme c'est la tradition en France - ils en vinrent à parler politique Judo

Certains ont dit qu'à ces réunions vous aurez annoncé que ceux qui vous resteraient fidèles monteraient en grades et les autres pas ?
-non, c'est faux. Beaucoup ont pensé que s'ils faisaient partie de Dojo-Union ils passeraient plus facilement de grade, mais ils se trompent car il y à la même règle pour tous.

Comment voyez-vous la situation en France ?
-Hum, mauvaise. Mais c'est normal maintenant que le nombre des C. N. augmente. Le Japon a eu les mêmes difficultés. Il y a eu aussi en France beaucoup de C. N. à titre honorifique mais maintenant c'est terminé pour tous, 1er, 2°, 3° et 4°Dan." (...)

Kawaishi arrived at Belém do Pará, Amazon region, in Brazil on August 31, 1931:

Newspaper snippet

Cichorei Kano wrote:Sorry guys, but the interview is in French. If there are things you do not understand, there are several bilingual Canadians on this forum, and also other people who are fluent in French.

If felt it more important to provide the accurate text than to put it in Google Translate and put a text on here of which half exists of gibberish that does not make any sense. The interviewer was a certain Robert Picard:


"Maître Kawaishi m'a reçu avec vraiment une grande gentillesse. Lorsque je lui ai expliqué que j'allais l'interviewer pour "Judo - Presse" il m'a dit "ha ha, article contre Maître Kawaishi ?" et il a largement souri lorsque que je lui ai dit "non ni pour ni contre, seulement la vérité" et je reste persuadé que si Maître Kawaishi a commis "certaines erreurs" la faute ne doit pas retomber uniquement sur ses épaules, comme beaucoup ont tendance à le faire mais surtout sur celles et ceux qui l'ont monté sur le piédestal où il n'a pas tellement chercher à y aller.

Certes Maître Kawaishi est un homme passionnément avide de vivre, avec tous ses défauts et de grandes qualités. Tant que ceux qui l'entouraient lui ont offert des plateaux d'or il s'est servi le plus largement qu'il a pu. En bon judoka il a utilisé au mieux "minimum d'efforts, maximum de bénéfices". Maintenant on doit se dire " il ne fallait pas le laisser faire ", car chacun aurait fait de même.

........

Comment voyez-vous la situation en France ?
-Hum, mauvaise. Mais c'est normal maintenant que le nombre des C. N. augmente. Le Japon a eu les mêmes difficultés. Il y a eu aussi en France beaucoup de C. N. à titre honorifique mais maintenant c'est terminé pour tous, 1er, 2°, 3° et 4°Dan." (...)

I did a quick translate. Wow wonderfull info from his own mouth!
Thanks for putting it here.

Who or what is the 'C.N.' he cites?

There's an interesting aside there. He says (if Google Translate and my terrible French are to be believed) that during his six years at the Kodokan, Kano shihan only participated in technical seminars at the Kodokan.

Kawaishi says he practiced at the Kodokan during his five years in Waseda (he graduated in Taisho 13, so that would be 1919-1924) and another year after graduating, so that's 1919-1925 or so, and Kano shihan only shows up for technical seminars.

So much for the notion that Kano taught so and so... He retired from Tokyo Higher Normal School in 1920 when he turned 60.

NBK wrote:Who or what is the 'C.N.' he cites?

"C.N." is a common term in French when referring to someone who holds a black belt in some martial arts; it stands for "ceinture noire". He is saying that before there were many honorary black belt holders in France, presumably politicians, fund raisers, or people of a certain standing. The French had an unusually high social profile. In many countries in Europe people in judo clubs were people with low education, but the French were Kawaishi and Feldenkrais were, were the opposite, consisting of scientists, and even the husband of the only female double-Nobel Prize winner (Marie Curie).

NBK wrote:There's an interesting aside there.  He says (if Google Translate and my terrible French are to be believed) that during his six years at the Kodokan, Kano shihan only participated in technical seminars at the Kodokan.

Kawaishi says he practiced at the Kodokan during his five years in Waseda (he graduated in Taisho 13, so that would be 1919-1924) and another year after graduating, so that's 1919-1925 or so, and Kano shihan only shows up for technical seminars.

So much for the notion that Kano taught so and so...  He retired from Tokyo Higher Normal School in 1920 when he turned 60.  

Very astute of you. It is known that Kanô already had quit engaging in randori years before he was 40 years old. It is probably socially not very acceptable for people of a certain social standing to show up at work with a black eye, a bruised lip or anything that suggests fighting or the kinds that most people find difficult to join with the status of high-level jobs.

The problem obviously is that there is no agreed definition of to what extent one needs to "have been taught by" in order to call oneself "a student of" or "has been taught by". Common sense tells us that if one once or twice attends a class by someone and then refers to him-/herself as "a student of" one is probably engaging in résumé-padding. That being said, the circumstances, total duration, frequency, but probably also the level one already has attained may be determinants in considering whether such statement is accurate or not.

The term "conférences" does not even refer to what we understand today as technical clinic or seminar, but is more "lecturing & discussion", so kôgi and mondô. In France, an associate professor at a university is called a "maître de conférence" referring to the lecturing part of his duties.

The same discussion could also be repeated regarding "was a member of".

With regard to Kawaishi, I think the interview is important, as we do not have too much direct information. We might think that he wrote books, but he didn't. Yup, Kawaishi did not really author his own books. His mastership of French was not at the level then that he could write entire books in the language. They are basically notes taken down by a Frenchman based on what his understanding was that Kawaishi was saying or intended. It's not too different from the case of Kanô, although there are actually people out there thinking that Kanô indeed would have ever written a book called "Illustrated Kôdôkan Judo" published in 1986 and another one called "Mind over Muscle" published in 2006 ...

Cichorei Kano wrote:

NBK wrote:There's an interesting aside there.  He says (if Google Translate and my terrible French are to be believed) that during his six years at the Kodokan, Kano shihan only participated in technical seminars at the Kodokan.

Kawaishi says he practiced at the Kodokan during his five years in Waseda (he graduated in Taisho 13, so that would be 1919-1924) and another year after graduating, so that's 1919-1925 or so, and Kano shihan only shows up for technical seminars.

So much for the notion that Kano taught so and so...  He retired from Tokyo Higher Normal School in 1920 when he turned 60.  

Very astute of you. It is known that Kanô already had quit engaging in randori years before he was 40 years old. It is probably socially not very acceptable for people of a certain social standing to show up at work with a black eye, a bruised lip or anything that suggests fighting or the kinds that most people find difficult to join with the status of high-level jobs.

The problem obviously is that there is no agreed definition of to what extent one needs to "have been taught by" in order to call oneself "a student of" or "has been taught by". Common sense tells us that if one once or twice attends a class by someone and then refers to him-/herself as "a student of" one is probably engaging in résumé-padding. That being said, the circumstances, total duration, frequency, but probably also the level one already has attained may be determinants in considering whether such statement is accurate or not.

The term "conférences" does not even refer to what we understand today as technical clinic or seminar, but is more "lecturing & discussion", so kôgi and mondô. In France, an associate professor at a university is called a "maître de conférence" referring to the lecturing part of his duties.

The same discussion could also be repeated regarding "was a member of".

With regard to Kawaishi, I think the interview is important, as we do not have too much direct information. We might think that he wrote books, but he didn't. Yup, Kawaishi did not really author his own books. His mastership of French was not at the level then that he could write entire books in the language. They are basically notes taken down by a Frenchman based on what his understanding was that Kawaishi was saying or intended. It's not too different from the case of Kanô, although there are actually people out there thinking that Kanô indeed would have ever written a book called "Illustrated Kôdôkan Judo" published in 1986 and another one called "Mind over Muscle" published in 2006 ...

Thanks for the clarification (and the explanation of C.N.).

So in Kawaishi's experience, according to this, in 6 years at the Kodokan when Kano shihan had time to show up (after his formal retirement at 60) from age 59 to 64 or so he from time to time gave technical lectures. He was active as Japan's Olympic rep from 1909, so there was travel, but I suppose if he'd physically taught judo regularly Kawaishi would have mentioned it, as he clearly seems to understand the interviewer's question: what's your relationship to the Master?

NBK

NBK wrote:

So in Kawaishi's experience, according to this, in 6 years at the Kodokan when Kano shihan had time to show up (after his formal retirement at 60) from age 59 to 64 or so he from time to time gave technical lectures.  He was active as Japan's Olympic rep from 1909, so there was travel, but I suppose if he'd physically taught judo regularly Kawaishi would have mentioned it, as he clearly seems to understand the interviewer's question: what's your relationship to the Master?

NBK

I think you are spot on. I had originally written a longer response but decided to delete it not needlessly wanting to piss off others, although doing so wasn't my intention, but anyhow. I wrote about the late Fukuda Keiko-sensei. I think in 2006 (I would have to check my notes) I asked Fukuda-sensei in person point blank if she had ever been actually taught judo by Kanô. Her answer was "no", but she told me it did happen that on the way to his office for which Kanô had to pass along the joshi-bu, he would stop and watch for a couple of minutes and gave a comment. She said that on very rare occasions  --maybe 3 or 4 times, it had occurred that he would step on the tatami to correct a movement or share some wisdom. I personally have never ever on any occasion heard Fukuda-sensei describe herself as a personal student of Kanô, and nowhere in her book "Born for the mat" does it say so either. Others did, likely not without reason, and it probably conveys an image that is very different from how Fukuda would have wanted it or how she thought people understood.

Wikipedia without any hesitation nevertheless writes:

"She began training in judo in 1935" (...)    "... was the last surviving student of Kano Jigoro, founder of judo" (...)

"Apart from instruction by judo's founder, (Fukuda also learned from Kyuzo Mifune)." (...) (Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keiko_Fukuda)


Fukuda's jûdô teachers in reality were Honda Ariya, 8th dan, Chief-instructor of the Women's Division, Handa Yoshimaro, 8th dan, and Noritomi Masako, joshi 5th dan, and to a lesser extent Samura Kaichirô and Mifune Kyûzô, later both 10th dan. Kanô himself was not part of it, and she never identified him like that despite all media articles doing the complete opposite. Honda too was about 65 years old when Fukuda enrolled at the Kôdôkan but unlike Kanô he was actually involved in practical jûdô teaching. And Handa (note the similarities in names Honda vs. Handa, when written in Rômaji) was the same age and Kanô (he was the guy you mentioned in the other thread I believe who was the Christian and had a conflict with Kanô on religion) but like Kanô, was more an educator, I mean... "intellectual educator" rather than a practical tatami guy. Besides, he was an alcoholic and survived Kanô by just over a decade and not surprisingly died of liver cirrhosis.

Considering the years relevant for Kawaishi ... as the paper I recently sent you mentioned ... between 1920 and 1932 Kanô went to the Far East Olympic Games in Shanghai and three Olympics in Antwerp, Amsterdam, and Los Angeles, and he did not exactly take ... "a non-stop flight", nope all by ocean steamer, and locally travelling around attending dinners, embassy parties, visiting club, watching demo's, etc.

Considering the years relevant for Fukuda ... between 1933 and 1936 (Fukuda only started judo in 1935) Kanô attended IOC meetings in four countries (again not taking "non-stop flights ...)

So indeed, when would Kanô have actually taught jûdô at the Kôdôkan ?  In theory he could have when he found time to lecture, but he can hardly have been very fit given that all he was doing was traveling and engaging in politics, so lecturing and intellectual stuff, which he was doing all the time, was likely a much safer choice for him. When Kanô in January 1930 performed in the famous Koshiki-no-kata film, there are incidences in there where he seriously loses control, which is the reason that the Kôdôkan in its films usually includes only 3 or 4 "safe" movements and not the complete footage, so most people won't be able to notice.

I believe that the late Mochizuki Minoru who died in 2003 and had been born in 1907, describes still having received some actual jûdô teaching from Kanô. Likely, he was the true  last surviving student of Kanô, having entered the Kôdôkan a decade before Fukuda-sensei, but unlike Kawaishi Mochizuki also formally was a student in the Kobudô Kenkyûkai at the Kôdôkan. As you know he was 5 years later sent out by Kanô himself to Ueshiba Morihei suggesting there definitely was some kind of relationship between Kanô and Ueshiba. That being said, in the case of Fukuda she had more conversations with Kanô than the average member of her dôjô with similar experience, and during those conversations material was communicated that is relevant for one's insight into jûdô. In other words there was a clear "mentorship" there despite the absence of what most people would understand needs to be present to consider someone as "a student of" when talking jûdô.

In any case, we also must be mindful of the practicality of conversation. Saying "was a student of" takes a couple of words, but elaborating about the nature of that relationship or to what extent one was a student can take many paragraphs and is therefore usually considered not practical. It also does not seem common for people to ask a sensei to elaborate on the nature and extent of the teacher/student relationship so that those listening can get a more accurate picture of that learning period. I usually do, not with the intent to cause offense, but because I know how sensei are often misquoted particularly after their death, which convolutes things for a researchers and makes it far more difficult to rectify then. I feel I owe it to these people that they are quoted correctly. They had a lot to offer and have left a very important legacy that does not need anything extra to fully appreciate how much they gave us.

But back to Kawaishi ... I think that the relationship with either Fukuda Keiko or Mochizuki Minoru had with Kanô was much closer than that of Kawaishi with Kanô?  In fact, I think that there was no relationship of any significance between Kanô and Kawaishi other than "having seen", "having met".

Cichorei Kano wrote:But back to Kawaishi ... I think that the relationship with either Fukuda Keiko or Mochizuki Minoru had with Kanô was much closer than that of Kawaishi with Kanô?  In fact, I think that there was no relationship of any significance between Kanô and Kawaishi other than "having seen", "having met".

That is my conclusion, also. One might be as cynical as to say their relationship was no more than a business connection.

M Kawaishi quel âge avez vous ?
-oh ! très mauvais..... 36 ans, ha ! ha ! Jamais demander âge !

Error, was 56 years.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_NjSHIRBuf3Y/S1I-mVGtHRI/AAAAAAAABlQ/_S3FxUGxmEo/s1600/69_02_05_mort_kawaishi.jpg