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Anatol
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    TP Leggett's Address to the BJA AGM in 1984

    Jonesy
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    TP Leggett's Address to the BJA AGM in 1984 Empty TP Leggett's Address to the BJA AGM in 1984

    Post by Jonesy Sun Sep 21, 2014 7:25 am



    This is the transcript: TPL Transcript
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    David Waterhouse


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    Post by David Waterhouse Sun Sep 21, 2014 1:05 pm

    It was good to listen to this recording again: lots of uplift for the aspiring jūdōka, and a point of view which is increasingly remote from that of modern sport jūdō! The unidentified speaker who introduces Trevor Leggett’s talk was the late Richard Bowen (somewhere I have a cassette copy which he gave me). Leggett is quite correct in seeing Buddhist influence on the phrase ji-ta 自他, “oneself and others” (cf. the current discussion elsewhere on this forum). On the other hand he (and Kanō Jigorō) were wrong in their analysis of the character bu 武, “military”. The conventional explanation, that it is made up of elements meaning “to stop or deflect” and “spear or halberd”, goes back to the 2nd-century Chinese dictionary Shuōwén Jiězì 說文解字; and has been repeated ad nauseam by writers on martial arts. However, modern scholars of Chinese script have shown that in its earliest forms the character is a pictograph of a footprint and a halberd: signifying a warrior who is performing a victory dance with a halberd, or simply marching with one. At one point Leggett reads out his translation from a newly published collection of Kanō’s writings. Since the date of his talk was 1984, this cannot have been the 14-volume Kanō Jigorō taikei (1987-88), but was rather the older 3-volume compilation Kanō Jigorō chosaku shū (1983). Lastly, Leggett, as was his wont, repeatedly refers to “Dr.” Kanō: on his part this was just a courtesy title, but many since have taken it literally.

    David Waterhouse
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    Post by Cichorei Kano Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:20 pm

    David Waterhouse wrote:Leggett is quite correct in seeing Buddhist influence on the phrase ji-ta 自他, “oneself and others” (cf. the current discussion elsewhere on this forum).


    So very true indeed !
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    Anatol


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    Post by Anatol Sun Sep 21, 2014 11:20 pm

    Even Trevor Leggett saying, "Jita Kyoei" derives from (Zen) Buddhism,

    it wont become more true. His arguments are confucian: "Study (yourself)" (xue, xi), read few books but in detail (the classics), study of history (shi) and knowledge (zhi) in general "cultivate it in yourself (li) and the "wise man" (sheng ren) or the "junzi" (superior man) in contrast to the small man (xiao ren), which is selfish, emotional, has no middle and mean. Culture and Power is united in "sheng ren", who is not only the wise man but also the ruler. A society ruled by "small man" is without way (wu dao). If you ware "Zen Glasses", you like to see Zen.

    If you are interested in the old hanzi of "wu3" (seal scripture):

    http://www.alice-dsl.net/taijiren/68_wu3_m7195.htm

    As David said, its a halberd and a footprint.

    But its not as easy, to get the meaning of an hanzi out of its components. Sometimes it is an eyeopener (mind opener), sometimes its misleading.

    .

    NBK
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    Post by NBK Mon Sep 22, 2014 9:49 am

    Anatol wrote:Even Trevor Leggett saying, "Jita Kyoei" derives from (Zen) Buddhism, it wont become more true. His arguments are confucian: "Study (yourself)" (xue, xi), read few books but in detail (the classics), study of history (shi) and knowledge (zhi) in general "cultivate it in yourself (li) and the "wise man" (sheng ren) or the "junzi" (superior man) in contrast to the small man (xiao ren), which is selfish, emotional, has no middle and mean. Culture and Power is united in "sheng ren", who is not only the wise man but also the ruler. A society ruled by "small man" is without way (wu dao). If you ware "Zen Glasses", you like to see Zen.

    If you are interested in the old hanzi of "wu3" (seal scripture):

    http://www.alice-dsl.net/taijiren/68_wu3_m7195.htm

    As David said, its a halberd and a footprint.

    But its not as easy, to get the meaning of an hanzi out of its components. Sometimes it is an eyeopener (mind opener), sometimes its misleading.
    Anatol,
    I appreciate your comments.  I would appreciate them more, I think, if you include the hanzi (JA: kanji) because I don't speak Chinese.  I think CK can read Chinese, but we have more Japanese speakers and readers here.  (I assume you can type Chinese, or at least the isolated characters.)

    And, yes, you can read too much into the components or total kanji (CH: hanzi), and get wrong ideas, too.  

    If I tried here:

    Study (yourself)" (xue, xi) ?學 ? (JA:学)
    study of ’history' (shi) 史
    and knowledge (zhi) 智
    "cultivate it in yourself (li) ('it' being reason?)  利 
    "wise man" (sheng ren)  智人 ?
    "junzi" (superior man) 君子 
    small man (xiao ren) 小人
    Culture and Power is united in "sheng ren"  ?

    A society ruled by "small man" is without way (wu dao).  無道 

    If you are interested in the old hanzi of "wu3" (seal scripture):
    'martial' = 武

    As David said,  
    its a halberd   弋 
    and a footprint. ?  止 in Japanese is 'to stop', cease, park, etc. (GE: Fußabdruck, anhalten)   I don't know where the 'foot' comes in, possibly in a precursor character.    

    I think your point about looking through a Zen lens, you find Zen (everywhere!), is correct.  I find more Confucian virtues in Kan's writings.   A lot of people have taken Legget's comments regarding the philosophic aspects of judo at face value, but I wonder if he's off track at times.  Anyhow, I think you'll find a lot of Legget fans upset with you.  It will be interesting to see if there are well formed counters.      

    Thanks again,
    NBK

    PS - this website has the original Chinese with Legge's translation. Look halfway down, you can see the English. http://www.cnculture.net/ebook/
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    Post by Ben Reinhardt Tue Sep 23, 2014 2:47 am

    Page 13 regarding randori vs contest rules is quite interesting...
    NBK
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    Post by NBK Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:07 pm

    David Waterhouse wrote:It was good to listen to this recording again: lots of uplift for the aspiring jūdōka, and a point of view which is increasingly remote from that of modern sport jūdō! The unidentified speaker who introduces Trevor Leggett’s talk was the late Richard Bowen (somewhere I have a cassette copy which he gave me). Leggett is quite correct in seeing Buddhist influence on the phrase ji-ta 自他, “oneself and others” (cf. the current discussion elsewhere on this forum). On the other hand he (and Kanō Jigorō) were wrong in their analysis of the character bu 武, “military”. The conventional explanation, that it is made up of elements meaning “to stop or deflect” and “spear or halberd”, goes back to the 2nd-century Chinese dictionary Shuōwén Jiězì 說文解字; and has been repeated ad nauseam by writers on martial arts. However, modern scholars of Chinese script have shown that in its earliest forms the character is a pictograph of a footprint and a halberd: signifying a warrior who is performing a victory dance with a halberd, or simply marching with one. 。。。。。(deleted by NBK to shorten the quote) 。。。。。。。
    David Waterhouse
    This very recent Harvard paper pp9-12 delves into the controversy regarding the discussions regarding the evolution of 武 JA: bu CH: wu
    back to the Emperor Wu.
    http://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/handle/1/9830346/Vihan_gsas.harvard_0084L_10642.pdf?sequence=1
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    Post by Anatol Fri Oct 03, 2014 9:21 pm

    Hi NBK

    On a general note chinese characters develope from a basic meaning to a more complex and sophisticated and if they are characters of core ideas of chinese philosophy (as Dao and De or Fa  法 and Li 禮 and so on), the interpretation gets influenced by the school of thought of the interpreter. As Confucianism in China is called the "Ru Jia" ( 儒 家), the "school of the soft/weak", opposing the "hard ones", the warriors, the military ( 武). The first engaged in rites, morals, study and writing, the second in fighting and conquering. At the time of the  Shuowen Jiezi, Confucianism was already the dominant doctrine of Han Dynasty and the author Xu Shen was a confucian scholar of great expertise in all confucian classics. Xu Shen had a bias to interprete "wu" in his way and give an interpretation of "Wen" (文) over "Wu" (武). Rooting back the meaning of "Wu" as "stop" and "laying down the weapons" to the Son (King Wu ) of the founder of Zhou Dynasty King Wen (周文王), is tricky, because King Wen and King Wu (周武王) with the younger brother of Wu the Duke of Zhou (周公) are role models to Confucius, men of high education and virtue, they are sages and saints (sheng ren). King Wen is said to have discovered the eight trigramms and has written the oldest chinese book the "Classic of Changes" (Yi Jing), full of deep wisdom (spoken from chinese perspective) and of deepest influence to chinese culture, King Wu won the Battle of Muye, conquering the Shang Dynasty.

    To look at the original components (radical) and meaning of the character "wu" 武, you have to go back to the oracle and bone script of Shang Dynasty and interprete  them without a confucian bias. Interestingly, Daoism goes in the matter of "wen over wu" hand in hand with Confucianism - see Laozi 30, 31, 46, 68. Only in Fa Jia (Legalism) military was in high praise.
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    Post by Creamy creamy baileys Sat Oct 04, 2014 3:46 pm

    Thank you so much for this; I wished I had the chance to meet/talk to TPL when he was still alive.
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    Post by Anatol Sun Oct 05, 2014 8:45 pm

    Hi NBK


    You may have a look at these two:


    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E6%AD%A6

    http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E6%AD%A2
    Jihef
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    Post by Jihef Mon Oct 06, 2014 11:32 pm

    David Waterhouse wrote:It was good to listen to this recording again: lots of uplift for the aspiring jūdōka, and a point of view which is increasingly remote from that of modern sport jūdō!
    Very interesting lecture.

    Makes you wish you had him as a teacher. He has humor, and sounds passionate about his subject.

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