Toketa

Dear Sensei,

I have a question please. Please pardon me if this may be in the wrong section.

Today in shiai we consider a hold to be ineffective, and hence toketa, when uke has his legs scissored around tori's legs. Why is this so? Has it always been like that, i.e., acceptable from the bottom?

Appreciate any insights!

Thank you,

Cokiee

The simple answer ist: Tori should (in a combat situation) be free to stand up, if necessary. He should also have visual control over uke´s actions. That´s the reason for the face-to-face rule.

i was told that the 'battlefield' rationale (shiai mimicing battlefield) was that you lose your weapon and you hold the guy down until your buddies show up.

But you have to be able to get up and get outta there if his buddies show up first.

wdax wrote:The simple answer ist: Tori should (in a combat situation) be free to stand up, if necessary. He should also have visual control over uke´s actions. That´s the reason for the face-to-face rule.

Thank you Sensei. Does that mean then, that in today's IJF rules, where the "ura" position is valid, this fundamental rule is then violated?

I´m not 100% sure about todays rules, but I think, the face-to-face-rule ist still valid?

Latest rules make ura gatame or similar valid again, which does indeed break the face-to-face principle.

See rules and the explanatory guide here, IJF link which explicitly states Ura is allowed and includes a picture.

I have no idea what the IJF was thinking in bringing it back, maybe they're just trying to annoy the Kodokan.
Getting rid of ura gatame was one of the few rule changes in recent years I actually didn't object to.

I think Uki gatame is still invalid, and I would rather they permitted that than ura.
Both the knee on chest version and butt on chest version are effective, and lend themselves to dynamic ne waza as they can transition easily to kansetsu waza.

On a side note, somebody's gotta show the IJF how to compress a %&¤@ing pdf cuz 26 Meg is thoroughly uncalled for for such a document.

@wdax Sensei, Y-Chromo sensei is right - ura gatame is now valid. For me, it's also ugly, but that's just my opinion, hehe.

If i understand it correctly, uki gatame is also valid - no reason they should not be, and I definitely have called it as osaekomi without being corrected in at least 1 situation.