fabulous, uphill both ways in the snow.
![Very Happy](https://2img.net/i/fa/i/smiles/icon_biggrin.png)
judoratt wrote:fabulous, uphill both ways in the snow.![]()
judoratt wrote: The Monty Python skit reminds me of some of the judo stories
I have heard later in the evening.
Stacey wrote:judoratt wrote: The Monty Python skit reminds me of some of the judo stories
I have heard later in the evening.
I do believe this was the primary inspiration for Masters/Veterans judo events - so afterwards we could share judo "stories"
Now, how that relates to IJF rule implementation, I'm not exactly sure, but I can easily see a group of older judoka, after sharing stories and a few beers, writing down new "rules" on available cocktail napkins under the guise of, "what if we changed this rule....."
... happy days ... pass the peanuts ...BillC wrote:
5. And one need not be in the silver league category to remember when this whole thread played out almost exactly on the old forum ... four yorkshiremen included ...
sodo wrote:finarashi wrote:Remeber the history. Have you asked for yourself why did the small scores come to play? Before they were displayed the small scores were supposedly kept in mind by the referees. Then when there was no waza-ari and no ippon they voted for the decision. Too many coaches and players were mad because the referees 'forgot' some scores and 'remebered' others. So having koka and yuko dispalyed was considered an advantage by all parties; players, coaches and referees were happy when that came into play.sodo wrote:Fritz wrote:There would be no need for such rule, it would be sufficient to give the other a
little bit more time to handle the turtle.
for once we agree![]()
There are too many rules and too much interference by the refs. The problems really started with the introduction of minor scores and penalties. get rid of them and you and lengthen the contest time and you will get rid of a lot of tactical play and better judo![]()
atb
sodo
The minor scores became important because the length of the contest was reduced and the no. and most of the tounaments dropped the pool system for the preliminaries.
The minor scores were not so much a problem as the minor penalties, I can still remember setting opponents up in the corner and forcing them to make a "wrong step" onto red to avoid an attack![]()
atb
sodo
genetic judoka wrote:so here's a scenario: you shoot uchi mata, and I block it by essentially bowling you over forward. you end up face down. should you then have to immediately roll over and hand me the pin on a silver platter to avoid a penalty?
you've seen the methodology by which the IJF implements rules. and by that I mean heavy handedly. do you really want that?
Gus wrote:genetic judoka wrote:so here's a scenario: you shoot uchi mata, and I block it by essentially bowling you over forward. you end up face down. should you then have to immediately roll over and hand me the pin on a silver platter to avoid a penalty?
you've seen the methodology by which the IJF implements rules. and by that I mean heavy handedly. do you really want that?
Well I would argue that throwing someone onto their front should also score (not as much as an ippon but something) - that would prevent the other annoying Judo strategy of "turning out" - either way turtling isnt going to help. I agree with the original poster - and if I remmeber correctly my original sensei who was a very traditional Judoka also disliked turtling and always wanted people to fight from their back on the ground.
Cichorei Kano wrote:Gus wrote:genetic judoka wrote:so here's a scenario: you shoot uchi mata, and I block it by essentially bowling you over forward. you end up face down. should you then have to immediately roll over and hand me the pin on a silver platter to avoid a penalty?
you've seen the methodology by which the IJF implements rules. and by that I mean heavy handedly. do you really want that?
Well I would argue that throwing someone onto their front should also score (not as much as an ippon but something) - that would prevent the other annoying Judo strategy of "turning out" - either way turtling isnt going to help. I agree with the original poster - and if I remmeber correctly my original sensei who was a very traditional Judoka also disliked turtling and always wanted people to fight from their back on the ground.
Yotsunbai 四つん這い (in American English often popularly referred to as 'turtling') is not a mere defensive position in jûdô. Instead, its categorization in Kôdôkan jûdô is:
(1) Tori defending from yotsunbai.
(2) Tori attacking from yotsunbai.
One of the reasons that throwing onto the front is not scoreable is the risk for injury. Classical breakfalls work best on the back. They include the principle of rounding the body to minimize impact and avoiding to stick out your arms. When you fall on your front, you can't round the back and your arms have to be stuck out towards the front to break fall. This is a particularly dangerous if the throwing partner falls with and lands on top of you, something that is not always avoidable. When working out with Van de Walle he continuously threw me on his face because his throws were that powerful that I was forced to make and extra-half turn to the air. It was highly unpleasant. To imagine he would also have fallen on top of me in that position is beyond reasonable. Even when making a perfect forward judo flat fall, a partner falling on top would easily lead to a bilateral humeroscapular dislocation towards posterior, potentially complicated by a scapular fracture and radio/ulnar-humeral dislocation/fracture towards posterior. On top of that there are major risks for the head. During a normal backwards fall, the chin ideally is moved towards the sternum hence avoiding impact. However, if falling towards the front, it would mean having to stretch your head backwards. This position is far less safe as there is a potential for still hitting the tatami with your chin. Particularly if you have a partner that then also falls on top of your body, you might fracture your neck and the axial or lower cervical vertebrae. Such fractures cannot be prevented by the presence of a tatami. Depending on the exact level of the fracture the outcome may be lethal, not just because of potential paralysis but because the body's neurological breathing center functioning requires intact neural structures at that level. To put it somewhat differently, when a person is hung, well-hung, unlike what people think, he does not die because of choking but because the dens (a processus sticking out from the second cervical vertebrae is forced into the neural center irreversably damaging and taking out breathing function. I would strongly suggest not having to add this diverse pathology to the plethora of outcomes from a standard judo competition.
Cichorei Kano wrote:Gus wrote:genetic judoka wrote:so here's a scenario: you shoot uchi mata, and I block it by essentially bowling you over forward. you end up face down. should you then have to immediately roll over and hand me the pin on a silver platter to avoid a penalty?
you've seen the methodology by which the IJF implements rules. and by that I mean heavy handedly. do you really want that?
Well I would argue that throwing someone onto their front should also score (not as much as an ippon but something) - that would prevent the other annoying Judo strategy of "turning out" - either way turtling isnt going to help. I agree with the original poster - and if I remmeber correctly my original sensei who was a very traditional Judoka also disliked turtling and always wanted people to fight from their back on the ground.
Yotsunbai 四つん這い (in American English often popularly referred to as 'turtling') is not a mere defensive position in jûdô. Instead, its categorization in Kôdôkan jûdô is:
(1) Tori defending from yotsunbai.
(2) Tori attacking from yotsunbai.
One of the reasons that throwing onto the front is not scoreable is the risk for injury. Classical breakfalls work best on the back. They include the principle of rounding the body to minimize impact and avoiding to stick out your arms. When you fall on your front, you can't round the back and your arms have to be stuck out towards the front to break fall. This is a particularly dangerous if the throwing partner falls with and lands on top of you, something that is not always avoidable. When working out with Van de Walle he continuously threw me on his face because his throws were that powerful that I was forced to make and extra-half turn to the air. It was highly unpleasant. To imagine he would also have fallen on top of me in that position is beyond reasonable. Even when making a perfect forward judo flat fall, a partner falling on top would easily lead to a bilateral humeroscapular dislocation towards posterior, potentially complicated by a scapular fracture and radio/ulnar-humeral dislocation/fracture towards posterior. On top of that there are major risks for the head. During a normal backwards fall, the chin ideally is moved towards the sternum hence avoiding impact. However, if falling towards the front, it would mean having to stretch your head backwards. This position is far less safe as there is a potential for still hitting the tatami with your chin. Particularly if you have a partner that then also falls on top of your body, you might fracture your neck and the axial or lower cervical vertebrae. Such fractures cannot be prevented by the presence of a tatami. Depending on the exact level of the fracture the outcome may be lethal, not just because of potential paralysis but because the body's neurological breathing center functioning requires intact neural structures at that level. To put it somewhat differently, when a person is hung, well-hung, unlike what people think, he does not die because of choking but because the dens (a processus sticking out from the second cervical vertebrae is forced into the neural center irreversably damaging and taking out breathing function. I would strongly suggest not having to add this diverse pathology to the plethora of outcomes from a standard judo competition.
Gus wrote:
All the more reason to penalise deliberately turning out onto your front then.
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