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Stacey
Old Chestnut
jkw
Taiobroshi
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    Taiobroshi
    Taiobroshi


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    Post by Taiobroshi Thu Mar 28, 2013 2:26 pm

    So two weeks ago I was doing light newaza randori with a dan grade and after escaping a couple of attempts he caught me in a "belly-down" juji gatame. My hands were clasped and he cranked like hell and dropped his abdomen, then I heard my elbow pop twice while I yelled "tap tap!" Now every time I do a morote seoi nage or any kind of strong, slightly angled pull with my tsurite I have to stop to deal with the pain. I've also been waking up stiff. Usually I'm fine with injuries, but I graduate in 50 days and this is the last opportunity I'll get to travel on university's dime to big tournaments (Liberty Bell and Sr. National's). It's not fair that someone can visit a dojo and take away the next months worth of training and shiai, just to prove that he can armbar a 5'3" sankyu. Zero time to tap and even if I could I wouldn't have been able to tap his body so the unnecessary crank still would have gotten me regardless. What happened to taking care of your training partners?

    I know complaining won't make my arm better, but I'm angry and upset so I thought I'd vent here since I know people can relate to the feeling of an injury holding you back. At least I don't have to make weight for a while. Other than RICE I don't know what else to do- any help in that department would be appreciated too.
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    jkw


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    Post by jkw Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:15 pm

    Frustrating experience! Sorry to hear about your injury.

    Could you feel him ramping up the intensity each time you thwarted his earlier attacks? Sometimes it's worth slowing things down in randori if it's getting a bit overheated ... tie your obi, move across to a more open part of the tatami etc... If you're feeling like your partner is getting reckless, you can always stop - but this doesn't sound like it was the case.

    At any rate, good luck with the rehabilitation!
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    Old Chestnut


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    Post by Old Chestnut Thu Mar 28, 2013 5:02 pm

    Ouch that's pretty shit, similar thing happened to me a month ago due to a nikyu (I just made yonkyu) almost twice my weight. Been unable to train till now, for the first couple of weeks I couldn't even open a car door due to excruciating pain in my elbow ligaments.
    Stacey
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    Post by Stacey Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:42 am

    When I was very new in judo, I had a guy with 50 lbs on me get me belly down with both hands under my body. He threaded my legs, so no tap was coming from my legs. Then he pulled the lapel of my gi across my mouth (as if that was my neck?). Went between my teeth. From his angle, he couldn't see that the gi wasn't around my neck. He started to apply pressure. There I was, unable to tap with my hands, unable to tap with my feet, unable to say, "matte" and he was cranking. The third time my neck popped, he stopped, suddenly figuring that something wasn't right (I'd always tapped in the past, or said something like, "it's not going to work" when it wasn't applied correctly enough to get me to tap. Sprained my neck but good that day.

    Where was the instructor during all of this? Dunno. Good thing I wasn't preparing for a tournament or something.

    Listen; it happens. It'll happen to you, it'll happen because of you. Somebody because of something unrelated to strength will think you're wicked strong and crank too hard. You'll probably do the same at some point - think that you're playing the person to their level or slightly above and harm the person without the intent to harm them - you just missed on what you thought the strengths and weaknesses are for your partner. Doesn't mean you don't care. Doesn't mean you were trying to "prove" something to a lower kyu. It just happens.

    btw, there's always grad school, or earning your own dime. There's plenty of shiai left for you.

    Right now, I'd suggest taking it very easy on that elbow - don't do morote seio with that arm. Adapt and work on other throws for now. You're in school, use school health to make sure nothing terrible is going on, and maybe use their PTs for a bit of massage and attention to that elbow.

    Injury always sucks - there's no getting around it. They always come at the worst times - there's no getting around that either, except to stay away from judo when you have something important coming up. And, there's always telling your partner, visitor or otherwise, that you are preparing for shiai. I don't come close to cranking on people who are preparing for shiai.

    Nothing like feeling completely helpless with your arms pinned, eh?
    Cichorei Kano
    Cichorei Kano


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    Post by Cichorei Kano Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:42 am

    Taiobroshi wrote:So two weeks ago I was doing light newaza randori with a dan grade and after escaping a couple of attempts he caught me in a "belly-down" juji gatame. My hands were clasped and he cranked like hell and dropped his abdomen, then I heard my elbow pop twice while I yelled "tap tap!" Now every time I do a morote seoi nage or any kind of strong, slightly angled pull with my tsurite I have to stop to deal with the pain. I've also been waking up stiff. Usually I'm fine with injuries, but I graduate in 50 days and this is the last opportunity I'll get to travel on university's dime to big tournaments (Liberty Bell and Sr. National's). It's not fair that someone can visit a dojo and take away the next months worth of training and shiai, just to prove that he can armbar a 5'3" sankyu. Zero time to tap and even if I could I wouldn't have been able to tap his body so the unnecessary crank still would have gotten me regardless. What happened to taking care of your training partners?

    I know complaining won't make my arm better, but I'm angry and upset so I thought I'd vent here since I know people can relate to the feeling of an injury holding you back. At least I don't have to make weight for a while. Other than RICE I don't know what else to do- any help in that department would be appreciated too.

    Taiobroshi,

    About 20 years ago I published a scholarly article entitled "The elbow joint of the judoka", which was about precisely these problems. I had reason to write this article as my own competitive career was significantly hampered by several severe elbow injuries. Unfortunately the article is not in English, and also, electronic publications started only in 1996. These problems were not well known among physicians due to unfamiliarity with the sport of judo. In order to optimally address certain injuries the mechanism that creates the injury is not without importance. Furthermore, in defining accurate rehab strategies, one needs to know to what kind of forces and movements the injured area will be subjected to.

    There are certain things I can derive from your description, but there is other essential information which I can't. I would need to know if you were able to resist the armbar for some time, or if you were really caught off guard and the result was almost instantaneous instead. When a layperson describes a sound as "twice popped" it is insufficiently precise to determine what kind of structure it was that popped and exactly what kind of popping sound. I would need to hear it myself. However, in general jûji-gatame injuries affect the common insertion of the arm flexors. A number of muscles in the forearm, such as notably the palmaris longus, pronator teres unlike a muscle such as the biceps have no separate, nicely clear identified attachment or insertion on the bone. Instead, they merge at the location of insertion. That is also the reason that even when only one muscle is injured, its inflammation often spreads to the other, making the entire flexing movement problematic, which is what you experience.

    If I would have heard the popping sound myself I might have been able to better determine where along the structure of your muscle the injury occurred. If it really was a consecutive "tchak-tchak-tchak" sound like how a big cable would snap then that would not be good at all, but usually, on a first injury it isn't that bad, because there is no scar tissue yet and thus the muscles still have a decent stretch factor. The popping sound in that case usually is a consequence of overstretching, with on a microscopic level a couple of fibers tearing. Particularly if you were forced to tap out while first substantially resisting the armbar, the consequence can be serious, because the injury is then of an eccentric nature; that means that your muscle is become longer as you are trying to make it shorter. After all your intent to flex your muscle and prevent the armbar is overcome by the greater force applied by your opponent thanks to the lever action he is applying. In this way forces are generated which exceed the integrity of the muscle and tendon itself. Because the muscle has a much higher elasticity than the tendon, in that case the injury will predominantly affect the tendon rather than the muscle. This is bad. In extreme cases the generated force may be so high that the tendon pulls its own attachment out of the bone. These injuries are extremely painful and take a long time to heal because tendons unlike muscles have poor blood circulation. Attempting to continue practicing judo at that point is stupid. Not only will it produce severe pain and hamper healing, but it will also stimulate the creation of tendinitis with potentially month-long or year-long problems.

    The best treatment of this injury is longtime ice application straight on the skin for at least 40 minutes. The injury needs to be taped permanently for two to three weeks not with that narrow athletic tape that is so popular in the US, but with wide stretchable adhesive tape, no cast. You have to be very conservative when it comes to these injuries. The switch from cold to heat therapy is difficult to establish, with any miscalculation potentially provoking severe tendinitis. Oftentimes, weeks of cold therapy may be necessary, with heat therapy having to start much later than in many other types of injuries such as muscle injuries.

    After that, we hit the same problem I have mentioned many times before on this forum. The FDA's very strange approach to this means that the ointments that exist for these injuries and that contain components such as diclofenac, ibuprofen, do no exist on the US pharmaceutical market. You would have to order from a Canadian, Mexican or European pharmacy unless you have a creative physician who is sufficiently familiar with world literature on this area that he orders the thing to be made at a compound pharmacy, which in the US unlike in Europe appears to be a service not provided by a standard pharmacy.

    When it comes to judo, absolutely any impact exercises with that arm have to be prevented. The arm may not be used for fall breaking, and you need to switch sides during rehab. The arm may not be used as a tsurite, only as a hikite, which is far less heavy on the arm both during your own throws, as when resisting or reacting to an attack from your opponent.

    Attempting morote-seoi-nage to the side that would require the injured arm to go in uke's armpit is about the most 'unwise' thing one can do. There are 40 throws in the gokyô and at least 27 standard others outside of that, giving you at least 66 other options variations not included.

    Good luck !



    Cichorei Kano
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    Post by Cichorei Kano Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:43 am

    Stacey wrote:When I was very new in judo, I had a guy with 50 lbs on me get me belly down with both hands under my body. He threaded my legs, so no tap was coming from my legs. Then he pulled the lapel of my gi across my mouth (as if that was my neck?). Went between my teeth. From his angle, he couldn't see that the gi wasn't around my neck. He started to apply pressure. There I was, unable to tap with my hands, unable to tap with my feet, unable to say, "matte" and he was cranking. The third time my neck popped, he stopped, suddenly figuring that something wasn't right (I'd always tapped in the past, or said something like, "it's not going to work" when it wasn't applied correctly enough to get me to tap. Sprained my neck but good that day.

    Where was the instructor during all of this? Dunno. Good thing I wasn't preparing for a tournament or something.

    Listen; it happens. It'll happen to you, it'll happen because of you. Somebody because of something unrelated to strength will think you're wicked strong and crank too hard. You'll probably do the same at some point - think that you're playing the person to their level or slightly above and harm the person without the intent to harm them - you just missed on what you thought the strengths and weaknesses are for your partner. Doesn't mean you don't care. Doesn't mean you were trying to "prove" something to a lower kyu. It just happens.

    btw, there's always grad school, or earning your own dime. There's plenty of shiai left for you.

    Right now, I'd suggest taking it very easy on that elbow - don't do morote seio with that arm. Adapt and work on other throws for now. You're in school, use school health to make sure nothing terrible is going on, and maybe use their PTs for a bit of massage and attention to that elbow.

    Injury always sucks - there's no getting around it. They always come at the worst times - there's no getting around that either, except to stay away from judo when you have something important coming up. And, there's always telling your partner, visitor or otherwise, that you are preparing for shiai. I don't come close to cranking on people who are preparing for shiai.

    Nothing like feeling completely helpless with your arms pinned, eh?

    Dang, there goes the plan I was devising to use on you next time we meet on the tatami ! Cool
    Stacey
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    Post by Stacey Fri Mar 29, 2013 10:06 am

    Cichorei Kano wrote:

    Dang, there goes the plan I was devising to use on you next time we meet on the tatami ! Cool

    ah, but you have no idea what i have planned for you! Twisted Evil
    Quicksilver
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    Post by Quicksilver Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:06 pm


    Taiobroshi; that is a real pain. Injuries are always frustrating, more so when they could have easily been prevented had a little more care been taken. I can't offer advice beyond what's already been said, but wish you the very best of luck with your recovery.

    Stacey wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:

    Dang, there goes the plan I was devising to use on you next time we meet on the tatami ! Cool

    ah, but you have no idea what i have planned for you! Twisted Evil

    You know, you two really would make a lovely couple. thumbs


    Regards,

    -Q
    Cichorei Kano
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    Post by Cichorei Kano Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:04 pm

    Quicksilver wrote:
    Taiobroshi; that is a real pain. Injuries are always frustrating, more so when they could have easily been prevented had a little more care been taken. I can't offer advice beyond what's already been said, but wish you the very best of luck with your recovery.

    Stacey wrote:
    Cichorei Kano wrote:

    Dang, there goes the plan I was devising to use on you next time we meet on the tatami ! Cool

    ah, but you have no idea what i have planned for you! Twisted Evil

    You know, you two really would make a lovely couple. thumbs


    Regards,

    -Q

    I already 'have' a lovely couple ...
    Stacey
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    Post by Stacey Sat Mar 30, 2013 2:28 am

    [quote="Cichorei Kano"]
    Quicksilver wrote:

    I already 'have' a lovely couple ...

    Me too! Mine's chained in the basement, what about yours?
    Taiobroshi
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    Post by Taiobroshi Sat Mar 30, 2013 3:01 am

    Thanks for all the support, anonymous forum peoples. Due to the quirky nature of my school I have to do a swim test soon, so I am incorporating that as part of my workout routine. I'm replacing dojo time with gym time until I'm better, but I'm still going to drill some things on the side. My training buddy and I have been working on yoko tomoe nage which isn't a big strain on my right arm and maybe in a week or so I am going to take one my mentor's advice and change the way I do morote so there's less possible strain on the elbow. Pacemaker and all, he is still able to perform explosive te waza in his 80s because he took care to learn good technique in his younger years. Maybe this injury is a necessary part of my maturation as a player. =P

    If this guy comes to visit again and we do newaza, I'm just going to tell him directly how much of a headache he caused me and to take it easy with that type of submission. I may or may not hold a choke a second or two longer than necessary, when I catch him.
    genetic judoka
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    Post by genetic judoka Sat Mar 30, 2013 3:05 am

    or better yet, don't partner up with him.
    catherinedl
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    Post by catherinedl Sat Mar 30, 2013 5:07 am

    wow! I learned a lot from the discussions especially from Cichorei Kano. I am amazed that you can identify what kind of elbow injury could have happened to Taiobroshi.

    To Taiobroshi, you'll get better after this injury. I am also injured at the moment after I incurred a complete fracture at my ankle ten weeks ago after playing with a student. I miss playing Judo but I'm taking things slowly and surely. I don't want to have a refracture. Wink

    I never had an elbow injury but I had a wrist injury before. It was difficult for me to turn a page of a book. I was not allowed to play with my team mates for a week. It's only shadow uchikomi and nagekomi for me. After that one week, I was allowed to play but only with my left hand. I am a rightie judoka but since I was handicapped I was forced to learn to use my left hand for my techniques. I also learned to combined techniques even when I was a one-handed judoka.

    Injuries can help you become a better judo player. Smile
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    jkw


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    Post by jkw Sat Mar 30, 2013 2:48 pm

    Taiobroshi wrote:
    If this guy comes to visit again and we do newaza, I'm just going to tell him directly how much of a headache he caused me

    Fine thing to do. Just work through in your head what his best & worst case reactions so you won't be upset if he says the worst.

    Taiobroshi wrote:
    I may or may not hold a choke a second or two longer than necessary, when I catch him.

    I wouldn't do this. I'm sure there is a wide range of views on this matter, but I don't think this is appropriate behaviour. My sensei would, from time-to-time choke me unconscious even after I tapped, and as a teen I would sometimes do this to others, but now I look at any messing around when someone taps as unacceptable behavior on the tatami.
    Stacey
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    Post by Stacey Sat Mar 30, 2013 3:45 pm

    Learn a lefty morote seio, if that doesn't harm your elbow. Work that yoko tomoe nage. Ashi waza, ashi waza, ashi waza (it's never too early to really work that ashi waza). And yes, there are ways to do morote seio that don't put as much strain on the elbow as the standard. I'd wait on those until your elbow is feeling much better.

    I'm in agreement with genetic - just don't partner with him. Yes, you can explain what sort of grief he caused you, but not playing a person speaks volumes to any experienced judoka. Instead of foisting your angst on him when he may not be prepared to hear it, allowing him to come to you may be much more efficient.

    If you do play him again, don't hold the choke a few seconds after tap. All you'll do is give him permission to do the exact same thing to you. Only, what will happen is he'll hold it a second or two longer than you did, and then you'll do it a second or two longer than his return choke, and the next thing you know, you're not in ronduri, you're in a fight. Don't needlessly intensify the ronduri. Instead, show him the exact same respect as you expect him to show you. Get known as a person who always plays a moral game in class and people will respect you for it a lot more than if you engage in getting even.
    Taiobroshi
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    Post by Taiobroshi Sun Mar 31, 2013 7:01 am

    Stacey wrote:Learn a lefty morote seio, if that doesn't harm your elbow. Work that yoko tomoe nage. Ashi waza, ashi waza, ashi waza (it's never too early to really work that ashi waza). And yes, there are ways to do morote seio that don't put as much strain on the elbow as the standard. I'd wait on those until your elbow is feeling much better.

    I'm in agreement with genetic - just don't partner with him. Yes, you can explain what sort of grief he caused you, but not playing a person speaks volumes to any experienced judoka. Instead of foisting your angst on him when he may not be prepared to hear it, allowing him to come to you may be much more efficient.

    If you do play him again, don't hold the choke a few seconds after tap. All you'll do is give him permission to do the exact same thing to you. Only, what will happen is he'll hold it a second or two longer than you did, and then you'll do it a second or two longer than his return choke, and the next thing you know, you're not in ronduri, you're in a fight. Don't needlessly intensify the ronduri. Instead, show him the exact same respect as you expect him to show you. Get known as a person who always plays a moral game in class and people will respect you for it a lot more than if you engage in getting even.

    I wouldn't actually hold the choke- it was just a joke. That said, I'd rather have been light headed for a few seconds and keep the fidelity of my elbow ligaments than what ended up happening! I've never refused to do randori with somebody, in part because I feel like it would disrupt the flow of class. He's an up and coming national player and I have a lot to learn from working with him (since in a few years I want to be in his position, back patch and all). I'm going to be naive and give him the benefit of the doubt if he comes to visit again... whenever that may be.

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