<Video> In depth overview of Tai otoshi

I understand that I am not Udo Quellmalz and will never throw just like him. It's more about having a visual aid, getting ideas and hearing Adams point out key concepts.

Still, I watched PTNippons video and the no back pivot etc make sense now. Just like adding different pieces to this body drop puzzle. Also 'otoshi' makes sense to me as 'lift up the uke then drop them down'. As you say, the leg is an incidental.

Whilst I can appreciate other peoples preferences and views, I am still in the Neil Adams camp, anybody thrown by him would probably agree.

This is not my clip and does not cover all details of the throw, however Neil does focus on some areas in detail, which people may find helpful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0BAmgezQWg

The only part which makes me a bit nervous is the no bend in his extended leg. For Adams its fine, he is damn good. For me, I would prefer the bend as a fail-safe.

Adams is still a favourite of mine.

rjohnston411 wrote:The only part which makes me a bit nervous is the no bend in his extended leg. For Adams its fine, he is damn good. For me, I would prefer the bend as a fail-safe.

Adams is still a favourite of mine.

Try http://www.unkacademy.com/archive/152

As Hannon says most Henka's are born from individual strengths, learn the principles behind it, then it takes many years practice to get everything working together, good luck.

Here's a couple to add to your study list

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFEEwnvygy4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sc1tuj_Oyww

Which one above learn't from a video or book

So I have a question yet again.

I have a pre-existing problem with tendinitis in my right front shoulder. The last couple of classes where I have worked a lot on tsurikomi for tai-o, it has flared up.

Is there a way to work on tai otoshi, which I like, without placing as much emphsis on the right/lapel side?

Before you say it, I am making a concious effort not to leave the hand behind the shoulder.

rjohnston411 wrote:So I have a question yet again.

I have a pre-existing problem with tendinitis in my right front shoulder. The last couple of classes where I have worked a lot on tsurikomi for tai-o, it has flared up.

Is there a way to work on tai otoshi, which I like, without placing as much emphsis on the right/lapel side?

Before you say it, I am making a concious effort not to leave the hand behind the shoulder.

One of the reasons there exist different throws is to employ them in suitable situations depending on weight, height, tsukuri, debana, but also injuries. The type of injury you describe is almost anathema to tai-otoshi.

If you have that kind of problem, you are in problems for tai-otoshi. Really the only two ways around is to do tai-otoshi with neckgrip or to learn how to do hidari-tai-otoshi (thus left). Tai-otoshi with a high neckgrip is not common. This is how my first tai-otoshi was, but it is pretty much a skill I lost. As far as I can recall when I used to do that, my entire tai-otoshi was different. In other words, changing the tsurite in tai-otoshi greatly affects the throw. It is possible, about anything in judo is possible, but how much is possible is also related to an individual's skill level.

So to be frank, if you have that kind of problem, my suggestion is that you put tai-otoshi in the drawer until you have completely lost that problem and have a healthy shoulder, unless you are prepared to put in the hard work and patience for developing the necessary motor skills to do it to the left. Mind though that there are very few judoka who master the same technique with similar expertise to both sides, and this for obvious reasons.

rjohnston411 wrote:So I have a question yet again.

I have a pre-existing problem with tendinitis in my right front shoulder. The last couple of classes where I have worked a lot on tsurikomi for tai-o, it has flared up.

Is there a way to work on tai otoshi, which I like, without placing as much emphsis on the right/lapel side?

Before you say it, I am making a concious effort not to leave the hand behind the shoulder.

CK covers this well. but there is another option, if you're ok with not doing a classical tai otoshi. my sensei has serious issues with his right shoulder. much more serious than tendinitis. he still does tai otoshi, but the one he does when he's teaching (the classical version) is not the same as the version he does when he's just throwing people. for his comfortable version, he steps in with his lower body positioned like a normal tai otoshi, but he pulls his right hand (uke's lapel) up to his shoulder, close to his body. then he steps through with his left leg, so he ends up in what is still a normal tai otoshi lower body position, but facing much more to the right than he was before. by the time his left foot hits the mat in its new position, uke is falling. he calls it the step thru tai otoshi. the mechanics of the throw are no longer the same as a classical tai otoshi, and one could argue that it's almost a sumi otoshi because of the angles involved (we've had that discussion, I ask a lot of questions). one could also argue that it's almost more of a guruma motion (tai guruma? i dunno, that's a bit of a stretch) but he never claims it's a normal tai otoshi. it's just something he does to throw an uke despite a physical limitation. again he doesn't teach this as a classical tai otoshi, and tells us not to do what he does on a promotion test.

now with that said, I have tendinitis in my right shoulder. pretty bad actually. I throw a classical tai otoshi just fine. in fact tendinitis helped me fix a lot of my problems with my tai otoshi. I can tell when I'm throwing it wrong when I can feel the tendinitis flaring up again. my sensei does what he does because he's injured in a very different way than you or I are injured. so for you the answer is to practice it more, it's not unreasonable to think that you still have a bit to learn about the throw (hell, at shodan I still have a lot to learn about it, I've got a long way before mine looks like Hirano-sensei's). but in the meantime use your pain as an indicator of when things are going bad.

to be clear, if the tendinitis is acting up before you do any tai otoshi that day, it'll hurt anyway, even if you do it right. you may need to take some time off, tendinitis never gets better by trying to work thru it, it just gets worse. ice it, rest it (take a week or 2 off), and stretch it gently. getting your shoulder back in a more functional condition will most certainly help.

but yes, making a conscious effort to not leave the arm behind will help. in fact go a step further than that. the lapel hand is a major player in tai otoshi. treat it as such. one trick I used was to practice tai otoshi with the lapel hand only. when you can throw a clean tai otoshi with only the lapel hand where uke lands flat on their back, you know you're using your lapel hand properly. you need to emphasize the upward motion, as well as the downward motion afterward that guides uke into their clean fall. you need a good uke for this though, as novice ukes tend to wanna reach for the mat, or brace against your throw. they also need to be ok with this throw being one that's hard to 'pull up' on. I am not such an elitist that I can't remember what it's like to be the scared novice uke, and getting thrown by just your lapel is kinda scary.

rjohnston411 wrote:So I have a question yet again.

I have a pre-existing problem with tendinitis in my right front shoulder. The last couple of classes where I have worked a lot on tsurikomi for tai-o, it has flared up.

Is there a way to work on tai otoshi, which I like, without placing as much emphsis on the right/lapel side?

Before you say it, I am making a concious effort not to leave the hand behind the shoulder.

Try cross-grip tai otoshi, perhaps?

genetic judoka wrote:

rjohnston411 wrote:So I have a question yet again.

I have a pre-existing problem with tendinitis in my right front shoulder. The last couple of classes where I have worked a lot on tsurikomi for tai-o, it has flared up.

Is there a way to work on tai otoshi, which I like, without placing as much emphsis on the right/lapel side?

Before you say it, I am making a concious effort not to leave the hand behind the shoulder.

CK covers this well. but there is another option, if you're ok with not doing a classical tai otoshi. my sensei has serious issues with his right shoulder. much more serious than tendinitis. he still does tai otoshi, but the one he does when he's teaching (the classical version) is not the same as the version he does when he's just throwing people. for his comfortable version, he steps in with his lower body positioned like a normal tai otoshi, but he pulls his right hand (uke's lapel) up to his shoulder, close to his body. then he steps through with his left leg, so he ends up in what is still a normal tai otoshi lower body position, but facing much more to the right than he was before. by the time his left foot hits the mat in its new position, uke is falling. he calls it the step thru tai otoshi. the mechanics of the throw are no longer the same as a classical tai otoshi, and one could argue that it's almost a sumi otoshi because of the angles involved (we've had that discussion, I ask a lot of questions). one could also argue that it's almost more of a guruma motion (tai guruma? i dunno, that's a bit of a stretch) but he never claims it's a normal tai otoshi. it's just something he does to throw an uke despite a physical limitation. again he doesn't teach this as a classical tai otoshi, and tells us not to do what he does on a promotion test.

now with that said, I have tendinitis in my right shoulder. pretty bad actually. I throw a classical tai otoshi just fine. in fact tendinitis helped me fix a lot of my problems with my tai otoshi. I can tell when I'm throwing it wrong when I can feel the tendinitis flaring up again. my sensei does what he does because he's injured in a very different way than you or I are injured. so for you the answer is to practice it more, it's not unreasonable to think that you still have a bit to learn about the throw (hell, at shodan I still have a lot to learn about it, I've got a long way before mine looks like Hirano-sensei's). but in the meantime use your pain as an indicator of when things are going bad.

to be clear, if the tendinitis is acting up before you do any tai otoshi that day, it'll hurt anyway, even if you do it right. you may need to take some time off, tendinitis never gets better by trying to work thru it, it just gets worse. ice it, rest it (take a week or 2 off), and stretch it gently. getting your shoulder back in a more functional condition will most certainly help.

but yes, making a conscious effort to not leave the arm behind will help. in fact go a step further than that. the lapel hand is a major player in tai otoshi. treat it as such. one trick I used was to practice tai otoshi with the lapel hand only. when you can throw a clean tai otoshi with only the lapel hand where uke lands flat on their back, you know you're using your lapel hand properly. you need to emphasize the upward motion, as well as the downward motion afterward that guides uke into their clean fall. you need a good uke for this though, as novice ukes tend to wanna reach for the mat, or brace against your throw. they also need to be ok with this throw being one that's hard to 'pull up' on. I am not such an elitist that I can't remember what it's like to be the scared novice uke, and getting thrown by just your lapel is kinda scary.

What is tendinitis ? It is essentially a metabolic condition where at the cellular level a number of biochemical processes result in release of inflammatory agents partly caused by microtears. When a structure is used, particularly in an explosive way or against a load, microtears increase. Point is that why, no doubt if you already master tai-otoshi, you'll likely still be able to score with it, unless the specific type of shoulder tendinitis is so bad that it turns into a true "frozen shoulder" (adhesive capsulitis), which may get so bad that you can't move your shoulder anymore and can't even sleep anymore, the activity you are engaging in contributes to the problem. As long as the structure is kept active, that means in an aerobic form, without applying it against a resisting body and without explosiveness, the exercise will be positive, but use it as a tsurite and in 9 out of 10 cases you'll be further damaging the structure.

Also, one is assuming it is tendinitis, but are these all truly isolated forms of tendinitis without the presence of tendinosis, because if not, the risk of serious damage is even greater.

So you're saying to go through the motions of tai-otoshi when we train that, but not against heavy resistance due to possibility of injury?

I suppose some other forward throw is in order. Perhaps harai goshi or uchimata?

rjohnston411 wrote:So you're saying to go through the motions of tai-otoshi when we train that, but not against heavy resistance due to possibility of injury?

I suppose some other forward throw is in order. Perhaps harai goshi or uchimata?

Tendinitis is an overuse injury, and that overuse can be relative or absolute. In a sense, you can get it by doing something too long or too hard, but you can also get it by doing something the wrong way without even doing it excessively long or hard. Although most people understand that tendinitis is an inflammation they don't usually know how that inflammation is actually created and what is really going on to produce that inflammation. Sometimes if one can succeed in getting rid of the tendinitis completely and then learning how to do the movement correctly and the tendinitis may be gone for good. If not, it can stay around for years. In the old days physicians thought that in the case of tendinitis rest, absolute rest would be good. Modern medicine is now revising that attitude and saying that instead, move the structure, do aerobic exercise with it to improve good blood circulation and metabolism of inflammatory agent, but prevent anything that could increase or perpetuate microtears or the biochemical factors that stimulate tendinitis. Judo is dangerous for the recovery of injuries because you have in incalculable factor, namely the opponent. He can do sudden moves, suddenly resist and he can increase that resistance. That is a lot more dangerous and negative for an injury than you doing exercise on fitness equipment where often the trajectory is set by the equipment, the load by you, and you have control about how far you want to go, how many times, and when you want to stop. To approach that in judo is not impossible if you are highly skilled and working with a highly skilled opponent who moves supple and gently, and smooth.

rjohnston411 wrote:So you're saying to go through the motions of tai-otoshi when we train that, but not against heavy resistance due to possibility of injury?

I suppose some other forward throw is in order. Perhaps harai goshi or uchimata?

The tsurite action (lapel hand) action is not that different between foreward throws. If it's incorrect or has been over done and is causing problems for Tai Otoshi, then the same issue will probably come up with most if not all forward standing turning throws. It all depends on the specific injury and the specific mistake(s) that tori is making.

Probably doing something like tandoku renshuu (solo uchikomi) would be OK. No load, no uke or opponent to mess things up. Just have to make sure the correct action of the tsurite is understood and done while solo training. If one even keeps doing judo related to the injurious action.

At one time I developed some tendonitis (pain at least) in my right shoulder...I stopped doing any sort of tsurite action with a partner and did a lot of solo uchikomi. Several weeks later, problem solved, and I figured out what I was doing wrong.

Hanon wrote:
Watanabe Kisaburo Sensei is the definitive tai otoshi reference for me. I thought I understood tai otoshi until I saw him perform it! His nage no kata was also sublime. Poor uke......

Is he well? How old would he be now? Any information would be appreciated.

Mike

This is a relatively recent photo of Watanabe-sensei, then 8 dan, taken in Scotland in 2007.

For, interest, the "original" tai-otoshi was performed like this:

my sensei still teaches that version from time to time. I love it in nage komi, but can't do much with it in randori.

One has to be careful with some of these older pictures, particularly if there aren't a lot of sequential pictures, since the obvious question is ... what sequence in the throw is actually being shown ? Are we absolutely convinced that this is tori's final position, or is it mainly showing a kuzushi phase ?

Essentially these are the same concerns people used to have in the pre-video era when discussing kata on the basis of older publications.

medo wrote:Too much emphasis on leg position its a te waza described to me by great people, "as the legs are an afterthought"! "Its like tripping over a matchstick for uke".

Try this instruction:



On searching youtube there is so much rubbish there…

I hope people are not paying for this instruction?

Ughh.. I've learned quite a few throws that have worked well for me for many years but every time I see tai-otoshi I realize I'm a noob, or elementary, when it comes to kuzushi.lol I learned most I think thru mimicking a couple guys but haven't gotten beans from one that does tai-otoshi. Watching him do it where it's so amazing that uki doesn't even touch any part of his body in comp. It's like a sense, snap, and flip with more velocity and similar altitude as a seoinage w/o any loading/touching at all.

Some pointers from Neil Adams:

And ... some pointers by Satô Nobuyuki. Satô was the Tôkai coach to Yamashita and other greats and is currently a Kôdôkan 9th dan-holder: