Strategic Thinking

My dynamic Judo today was bad. I was up against a bigger guy in randori (Edit: a visitor from the BJJ class) and he was basically in that 'I'm preparing to sutemiwaza' position the whole time, keeping his distance and sitting back slightly. Initially, I wanted to ouchi him but he just pushed my shoulder away when I tried to get in, and he was quick to brace into the lefty uchi mata that I can usually use to open people up. When I tried to switch to a lefty grip and dash across to swing around him he caught me on the landing with a sasae-style trip, and the next thing I knew I was settling for knee pick ouchis and yoko tomoe flops. In the end, I just gave up on strategy and tried to pay attention to my tai sabaki and mirroring, but when I found a tension equilibrium he moved to a cross grip and reached around my back, trapping my arm between us and looking for sumi gaeshi to my far leg.

I'd really appreciate any thoughts or advice people have on this stuff. What can I do against big guys who have a similarly cautious approach- I know there's a 'simple' answer. How would others attack this problem? Thanks, osss!

...Hey, don't post our randori sessions here!

The simple answer is that we hate to be outgripped and shook up.

Happiness is a Warm Gun wrote:My dynamic Judo today was bad. I was up against a bigger guy in randori (Edit: a visitor from the BJJ class) and he was basically in that 'I'm preparing to sutemiwaza' position the whole time, keeping his distance and sitting back slightly. Initially, I wanted to ouchi him but he just pushed my shoulder away when I tried to get in, and he was quick to brace into the lefty uchi mata that I can usually use to open people up. When I tried to switch to a lefty grip and dash across to swing around him he caught me on the landing with a sasae-style trip, and the next thing I knew I was settling for knee pick ouchis and yoko tomoe flops. In the end, I just gave up on strategy and tried to pay attention to my tai sabaki and mirroring, but when I found a tension equilibrium he moved to a cross grip and reached around my back, trapping my arm between us and looking for sumi gaeshi to my far leg.

I'd really appreciate any thoughts or advice people have on this stuff. What can I do against big guys who have a similarly cautious approach- I know there's a 'simple' answer. How would others attack this problem? Thanks, osss!

Hi,
It would be helpful to know what grade you (and your partner) are in able to give solid advice but generally in Randori you should not need a stratergy you should be practicing tactics i.e. specific techniques and attacks. As the lighter man you shoul be using your speed and agility to out run a hevier (stronger) partner, avoid gripfighting and use fast loose attacks.

also, why the comment about bjj, if the guy is doing randori with you at a judo club then he is a judoka and he is using judo to frustrate you

atb

sodo

Sodo, I'm a brown belt, just getting back into shape after a long time away, and I mentioned that he was visiting from the BJJ class for two reasons-
1. To be clear that he was not hedgehogey
2. Because he told us he'd only be able to join us for this one class, since he usually has to work, and I wanted to be clear that he was doing this stuff intuitively based on his BJJ knowledge

As far as outrunning him goes, it sounds like you're saying I might have been on the right track to go lefty and dash across into a swinging orbit instead of fighting his strong lapel grip. Maybe I just need to figure out the footwork to avoid that inevitable sasae and find a reliable attack that I can threaten without slowing down too much.

Happiness is a Warm Gun wrote:Sodo, I'm a brown belt, just getting back into shape after a long time away, and I mentioned that he was visiting from the BJJ class for two reasons-
1. To be clear that he was not hedgehogey
2. Because he told us he'd only be able to join us for this one class, since he usually has to work, and I wanted to be clear that he was doing this stuff intuitively based on his BJJ knowledge

As far as outrunning him goes, it sounds like you're saying I might have been on the right track to go lefty and dash across into a swinging orbit instead of fighting his strong lapel grip. Maybe I just need to figure out the footwork to avoid that inevitable sasae and find a reliable attack that I can threaten without slowing down too much.

Basically when fighting training with a large weight dissadvantage you have to have the confidence to dominate and dictate the pace, if you leave it to your partner he will keep it in his own comfort zone.

atb

sodo

sodo wrote:

Happiness is a Warm Gun wrote:Sodo, I'm a brown belt, just getting back into shape after a long time away, and I mentioned that he was visiting from the BJJ class for two reasons-
1. To be clear that he was not hedgehogey
2. Because he told us he'd only be able to join us for this one class, since he usually has to work, and I wanted to be clear that he was doing this stuff intuitively based on his BJJ knowledge

As far as outrunning him goes, it sounds like you're saying I might have been on the right track to go lefty and dash across into a swinging orbit instead of fighting his strong lapel grip. Maybe I just need to figure out the footwork to avoid that inevitable sasae and find a reliable attack that I can threaten without slowing down too much.

Basically when fighting training with a large weight dissadvantage you have to have the confidence to dominate and dictate the pace, if you leave it to your partner he will keep it in his own comfort zone.

atb

sodo

Don't think for one second by passing this good advice that you are fooling me. I KNOW you are just trying to take over my good reputation.

Dream on young Sodo, dream on....

Mike

Don't think for one second by passing this good advice that you are fooling me. I KNOW you are just trying to take over my good reputation.

Dream on young Sodo, dream on....

Mike

YOUNG, please tell my missus, she thinks that I am SOOO... OLD

atb

sodo

I'm thinking about throwing my elbow against the lapel arm (like Tsunoda does at ~2:30 here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZY223R2ujCY&feature=player_detailpage#t=149s ) before the dash across so I can threaten a righty uchi mata from the lefty grip, but it seems like I'd be looking at a very small window of opportunity (not to mention the precarious balance) on that

Happiness is a Warm Gun wrote:I'm thinking about throwing my elbow against the lapel arm (like Tsunoda does at ~2:30 here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZY223R2ujCY&feature=player_detailpage#t=149s ) before the dash across so I can threaten a righty uchi mata from the lefty grip, but it seems like I'd be looking at a very small window of opportunity (not to mention the precarious balance) on that

Sodo's comments on dominating and dictating the pace are fantastic. I've always been lighter and smaller than most of my training partners but as I have gotten better over the years I have essentially had to do what sodo suggested. My approach to dictating the pace may be different from sodo and may be different from yours but the principle is spot on in my opinion. We could all sit here and tell you **we** would do but I don't think that would be helpful.

Also, I think you are approaching the problem the wrong way. Judo never works in the way of, "If he does this, then I'll do this and stick my leg here. It worked for Tsunoda!" Your training partner may react in a different way. If he does, then what? You are at a disadvantage a bit because you are (likely) working with people who are more concerned with "not getting taken down" rather than "improving their Judo". By the way thank you for sharing that video. I had never seen it before and there are principles being demonstrated that would be helpful for me.

hedgehogey wrote:...Hey, don't post our randori sessions here!

That sounded like you alright, all except the "big guy" part.

Happiness is a Warm Gun wrote:I'm thinking about throwing my elbow against the lapel arm (like Tsunoda does at ~2:30 here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZY223R2ujCY&feature=player_detailpage#t=149s ) before the dash across so I can threaten a righty uchi mata from the lefty grip, but it seems like I'd be looking at a very small window of opportunity (not to mention the precarious balance) on that

I think your problem is more fundamental than trying to do something fancy. Read Sodo's advice again and think about it very carefully.

Jumping around in front of a larger guy is usually not a good idea, as I think you already found out. You may move quickly, but he won't due to inertia...there will be a delay between anything you do and how/when he reacts. You have to quickly at the correct time, not all the time.

That definitely rings true Ben, I'm starting to think you're right that I am trying to get too fancy with it. I just can't shake the feeling that there's some sort of situation-specific throw or movement pattern that I could be drilling to add a bit of order to the chaos. Maybe because everything up through the lefty switch felt so natural, but the resulting position didn't feel like it presented any good throwing opportunities.

E: In the interest of drilling something fundamental to open up some more options from the lefty switch, maybe I'd better work on my lapel side ippon seoi

Happiness is a Warm Gun wrote:That definitely rings true Ben, I'm starting to think you're right that I am trying to get too fancy with it. I just can't shake the feeling that there's some sort of situation-specific throw or movement pattern that I could be drilling to add a bit of order to the chaos. Maybe because everything up through the lefty switch felt so natural, but the resulting position didn't feel like it presented any good throwing opportunities.

E: In the interest of drilling something fundamental to open up some more options from the lefty switch, maybe I'd better work on my lapel side ippon seoi

Situational type stuff is OK if your fundamentals are strong, but, the problem is the situation has to present itself. Your specific problems with one specific guy may not crop up with others, so try to get to the underlying problem, which is most likely what Sodo specified.

For example, it's generally a good idea not to stand still in front of a big guy, and not generally a good idea to stand their and try to grip fight with a bigger (or just stronger) guy. But if you have a very large skill advantage, you might be able to do that and be OK.

However, against a bigger guy (or gal) who is equal in skill or better, you had be very careful how you move, because your margin for error is going to be very small to nonexistant.

Even a lesser skilled bigger guy is more dangerous because he has more strenghth to put behind what ever he does.

My first senei/coaches wer all a lot bigger than me. And a LOT better, obviously. Any tiny error was greatly amplified.

the lapel side Ippon Seoi nage is something everybody should be good at. it's just too versatile to not develop.

Happiness is a Warm Gun wrote:I'm thinking about throwing my elbow against the lapel arm (like Tsunoda does at ~2:30 here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZY223R2ujCY&feature=player_detailpage#t=149s ) before the dash across so I can threaten a righty uchi mata from the lefty grip, but it seems like I'd be looking at a very small window of opportunity (not to mention the precarious balance) on that

Go Tsunoda, there's someone I would love to train with, nice clip. Can't help but think forget the arm at 2:30, focus on the movement at 7:59.

Yes, trying to do that arm movement to a larger and stronger guy would be difficult to say the least. There is a lot more to learn from watching Go Tsunoda...

So, quick update: Even before I wrote the OP, I felt like I understood the basic 'hip wind@snap' action highlighted by the Tsunoda videos. However, before class I went over the vids again with a fine-toothed comb, and made sure I was also comfortable with the 'posting' action Tsunoda does to facilitate his initial attack, where he pushes in lightly and then switches to a pull right when the opponent braces against him. In class, I payed close attention to getting the movement (and accompanying posture) right, and the result was really incredible- let's just say I've got my groove back! I found my rhythm, kept a level head and hit good clean throws on the big guys, and stayed mobile without gassing myself out in the process. Feeling really good, and I just want to say again how much I appreciate everyone's good advice here!

E: Oh and I hit a bunch of good okuri ashi barais, which was funny because I've never been able to rely on that throw before but it suddenly seemed to come as naturally as breathing for me

good for you!