how young is too young?

we all know older judoka that due to one injury or another (ok maybe a bunch of them combined) have begun focusing on sutemi waza. some have even said that sutemi waza were included in the gokyo with older judoka in mind. so the real question here is: how young is too young to begin refining one's application of sutemi waza because of injuries?

to be clear, I am not to that point yet. nowhere near it. I'm 26 and still invincible. my knees still have some life in them. in fact they're better now than they were a few months ago.

but they're showing signs of breaking down. I know the end of my ability to do a wicked harai goshi against a resisting opponent isn't that far down the road. I already dabble with yoko otoshi, sumi gaeshi, uki waza, an unorthodox tanei otoshi (a pretty safe version), and yoko tomoe nage. Im fairly successful with them in the dojo. and sometimes when my knees are bugging me I'll go whole randori sessions doing nothing but sumi gaeshi, but those throws get very little attention in practice compared to the standing waza that I specialize in.

so how young is too young to begin devoting more time to the throws I'm likely to specialize in during my later years? I can't help wondering if making the switch sooner than is absolutely necessary will help me to not be in as much pain during my off the mat hours later in life.

your thoughts?

I noticed that my throws have, and still are, changing all the time especially as i got older, but i really started working on sutemi waza when i hit 39 or 40. I still hit alot of other throws in randori, but sutemi-waza is now my bread and butter.

But, a little off topic yet not, the same goes for ne-waza. Because there is less impact during ne-waza many older people concentrate on that, too.

I don't think that there is any age that is too young. People should study all of judo, but specialize in what they feel fits their body best.

heikojr

A bad elbow injury made me specialize in tomoe nage. 5 years spent just learning the one technique and then variants on it.
Although There are lots of young judoka who are sutemi specialists. Craig Fallon springs to mind. Kashiwazaki was the best sutemi expert I have seen in his prime and after.
My son is 22 and he has a wicked tomoenage along with his tai otoshi and seoinage.
It depends on the individual.
Some judoka never give sutemi a look in, no matter how old they are.

26 is too young.

Sacrifice throws are great, I love them, takes a long time to really get the swing of getting under the opponent at the right time though

They are not old mans throws IMO, they are timing throws which usually comes with a maturity of skill hence mostly only older guys do them.

One of the most interesting parts of judo as you get older is how your judo evolves and changes. I firmly belive that you do not pick your next tokuiawza it picks you. BTW you are not even clost to being old.

Sutemi waza are THE most demanding throws in the gokyo. This should not prevent us from learning them. As in all things educational it is wise to build from a strong foundation of knowledge up and not try to work from the top down.

Sutemi waza ideally should be taught after some mastery of the other throws in the gokyo has been achieved.

Why?

It is well to learn to throw while tori has control over his own balance and that of an uke BEFORE said tori decides to sacrifice his balance in a sutemi waza.

Learning about how to maintain ones balance through posture and movement takes a long time. It is wise to practice the throws where tori maintains his balance as in doing the opposite tori may have problems latter in his judo life when a clear understanding of; kumi, hazumi, debana, kuzushi, tsukuri then kake are needed.

Of course this is the old school way of teaching judo. I appreciate times have changed and dojo time is not what it has been. Non the less if a judoka is looking for a long term future in judo the basics, the building blocks of judo cannot be ignored. This applies to all human endeavours from the day we first learn to walk from crawling and onto running then jumping...Boring...But?

On a side not the knees and legs in sutmei waza are utilised to the full and need to be in good condition for a successful sutemi execution. A judoka with a knee or leg problem 'may' find execution of sutemi waza more of a challenge?

Mike

I agree that I am in fact nowhere near being "old". I'm still quite young. but one doesn't need to be on the verge of retirement to start saving for it do they? as such I don't find it unreasonable to start thinking about what path my judo will take in my later years now, while I'm still young enough to navigate.

and Hanon sensei, I agree with you on many points, and disagree on others.

I find sutemi waza to be among the easiest techniques if the goal is to bring the match to the mat for newaza, and far from the easiest if the goal is to bring uke to the mat with a score of ippon. just like standing throws they take proper kuzushi and debana. in fact for them to be pretty it often takes more kuzushi and better debana than a standing throw.

when I was still extremely new (as opposed to still kinda new, like I am now) I was taught a fair amount of sutemi waza. one of the instructors at my club has a fair amount of injuries, and as such they developed a very strong sutemi waza skill set. when I'd ask "what would you do if your partner does x" their answer was always "well what I would do is y" with "y" usually being some form of sutemi waza. as such that started to become the standard answer for me. I wasn't always getting good throws, but I was getting my opponent to the ground where I wanted them. and with my goals back then, I considered it a success. then the head sensei at my club (a fellow just as old-school as yourself if not more so) saw where I was going with my training, and one day he sat me down and explained the idea that to get good at judo, one must focus on the standing throws where uke keeps his balance, specifically because they're more difficult. so I changed my game plan drastically and I am much better off for having done so. and while by no means would I claim that I've already mastered the standing waza, it's not like I skipped it and went right to the "easy" stuff.

however I have to disagree that sutemi waza is harder on the legs. for a throw like, say, seoi nage; I have to squat down low, whereas for a throw like uki waza, I'm more or less sitting down in front of uke with one leg extended. now of course there's more to it than sitting down while holding on, but in term of the stresses my joints must bear, I think uki waza is the easier of the two. like I say, when my knees are hurting I will sometimes go entire classes doing nothing but sumi gaeshi and yoko otoshi in randori, and it feels just fine. whereas if I were to try to do standing forward throws those days it would be miserable.

genetic judoka wrote:I agree that I am in fact nowhere near being "old". I'm still quite young. but one doesn't need to be on the verge of retirement to start saving for it do they? as such I don't find it unreasonable to start thinking about what path my judo will take in my later years now, while I'm still young enough to navigate.

and Hanon sensei, I agree with you on many points, and disagree on others.

I find sutemi waza to be among the easiest techniques if the goal is to bring the match to the mat for newaza, and far from the easiest if the goal is to bring uke to the mat with a score of ippon. just like standing throws they take proper kuzushi and debana. in fact for them to be pretty it often takes more kuzushi and better debana than a standing throw.

when I was still extremely new (as opposed to still kinda new, like I am now) I was taught a fair amount of sutemi waza. one of the instructors at my club has a fair amount of injuries, and as such they developed a very strong sutemi waza skill set. when I'd ask "what would you do if your partner does x" their answer was always "well what I would do is y" with "y" usually being some form of sutemi waza. as such that started to become the standard answer for me. I wasn't always getting good throws, but I was getting my opponent to the ground where I wanted them. and with my goals back then, I considered it a success. then the head sensei at my club (a fellow just as old-school as yourself if not more so) saw where I was going with my training, and one day he sat me down and explained the idea that to get good at judo, one must focus on the standing throws where uke keeps his balance, specifically because they're more difficult. so I changed my game plan drastically and I am much better off for having done so. and while by no means would I claim that I've already mastered the standing waza, it's not like I skipped it and went right to the "easy" stuff.

however I have to disagree that sutemi waza is harder on the legs. for a throw like, say, seoi nage; I have to squat down low, whereas for a throw like uki waza, I'm more or less sitting down in front of uke with one leg extended. now of course there's more to it than sitting down while holding on, but in term of the stresses my joints must bear, I think uki waza is the easier of the two. like I say, when my knees are hurting I will sometimes go entire classes doing nothing but sumi gaeshi and yoko otoshi in randori, and it feels just fine. whereas if I were to try to do standing forward throws those days it would be miserable.

Hiya,

We are all different though the same, its one of those zen riddles lol.

If one has a sensei, as you thankfully do, then he or she will guide you to make the best of what you have.

Remember we all have different capacities to learn judo. I reached my capacity some years ago in the physical form and will never grade again. Same for us all. If you are having the success you require with sutemi and your sensei is happy with your progress this is the end of the conversation so to speak.

Most posts I write are a generalisation of a linear path. Each of us will deviate from that path according to our own abilities and the instruction we are given.

IN GENERAL it is wise to learn the non sutemi before studying the sutemi for the reasons I have given in my previous post. There will be exceptions and this is as it should be.

If you suffer knee problems and you are 6' 52 as I understand you are then sumi gaeshi may be a challenge?

I cant see your judo so cant asses what route you may take to improve and ensure your safety.

I think we also have some confusion, perhaps, between a sutemi waza and what is know today as a 'take down' they are certainly not one and the same.

Nice to learn you are back on the tatami. Please do look after yourself. BTW you, at 26, are not young you are very young and remember age is very much a mental attitude. I am not old but the milaage on the clock is massive. Its all relative.

Regards,

Mike

genetic judoka wrote:we all know older judoka that due to one injury or another (ok maybe a bunch of them combined) have begun focusing on sutemi waza. some have even said that sutemi waza were included in the gokyo with older judoka in mind. so the real question here is: how young is too young to begin refining one's application of sutemi waza because of injuries?

to be clear, I am not to that point yet. nowhere near it. I'm 26 and still invincible. my knees still have some life in them. in fact they're better now than they were a few months ago.

but they're showing signs of breaking down. I know the end of my ability to do a wicked harai goshi against a resisting opponent isn't that far down the road. I already dabble with yoko otoshi, sumi gaeshi, uki waza, an unorthodox tanei otoshi (a pretty safe version), and yoko tomoe nage. Im fairly successful with them in the dojo. and sometimes when my knees are bugging me I'll go whole randori sessions doing nothing but sumi gaeshi, but those throws get very little attention in practice compared to the standing waza that I specialize in.

so how young is too young to begin devoting more time to the throws I'm likely to specialize in during my later years? I can't help wondering if making the switch sooner than is absolutely necessary will help me to not be in as much pain during my off the mat hours later in life.

your thoughts?

Given what I know about you, it would be fine for you to work on sutemi waza, but if I were your coach I would not have you focus on them at this point.

To me a focus on sutemi is more of a developmental stage than related to age, given that injury isn't an issue.

So I'd say pick two sutemi waza and work on those. Tomoe Nage and a yoko sutemi, maybe another in the form of a counter (Ura Nage, LOL, you uke would LOVE that one).

Ben

With long legs use tani otoshi as an attacking technique. If tori has a real gift for judo move onto uki waza,

Mike

Hanon wrote:With long legs use tani otoshi as an attacking technique. If tori has a real gift for judo move onto uki waza,

Mike

I love Uki Waza, does that mean I have a real gift for Judo?

Ben Reinhardt wrote:

Hanon wrote:With long legs use tani otoshi as an attacking technique. If tori has a real gift for judo move onto uki waza,

Mike

I love Uki Waza, does that mean I have a real gift for Judo?

Uki waza is my favourite technique but NOT my tokui waza. I have never tried to use uki waza in randori I just don't have that skill. To answer your question Ben, if you can throw people with uki waza in randori then I would say you are indeed gifted. Seriously gifted. I take my hat of to you Ben, If must have taken you some years to reach that stage?

To end the nage n kata with uki waza is a superb feeling. I used to be able to throw uli half way across a very large tatami.

Mike

Hanon wrote:

Ben Reinhardt wrote:

Hanon wrote:With long legs use tani otoshi as an attacking technique. If tori has a real gift for judo move onto uki waza,

Mike

I love Uki Waza, does that mean I have a real gift for Judo?

Uki waza is my favourite technique but NOT my tokui waza. I have never tried to use uki waza in randori I just don't have that skill. To answer your question Ben, if you can throw people with uki waza in randori then I would say you are indeed gifted. Seriously gifted. I take my hat of to you Ben, If must have taken you some years to reach that stage?

To end the nage n kata with uki waza is a superb feeling. I used to be able to throw uli half way across a very large tatami.
Mike

I'm gifted if throwing kids with it counts !

Seriously, I can get it every now and then, but I'm more of a ashi waza
kind of guy, and never on anyone who is very good at Judo.

And I'm like you, it's a favorite throw (along with Uki Goshi), but neither are my tokui waza or ever were.

Agreed on ending NNK with Uki Waza.

Regards,
Ben

anticipating what skill sets will work best for you in your old age makes about as much sense as being older and speculating how life would be different if you knew what you knew now when you were younger. Make sense?

I have one working leg. The other catches and I can't support my weight on it to drop down or get up. Shhh, it's a secret. Anyway, as a result, I do things a bit differently; yes, I do some sutemi waza, but I still throw tai otoshi because, hey, I love that throw. My tai otoshi has changed drastically since my introduction to the throw, just as my body has changed. Just as most of my judo has changed. I came into judo with trashed shoulders, so had to mod throws and grips to deal with it. As I get more arthritis, things will continue to change. Perhaps I won't be able to throw with a mighty boom of uke hitting the floor, but as I change and evolve, and as my throws change and evolve with me, I'll still manage an ippon throw every now and again.

When should you focus on sutemi waza? When it makes most sense to focus on sutemi waza. What do you do when injury costs you to limit the mobility of your "game"? You modify your throws. One mod that us older people tend to work a lot is ashi waza. See, that leg still "works", and I can still come at you from that side........

Anyway, learn sutemi waza when it makes most sense to learn sutemi waza. Mod your throws as your body changes through your life cycle - as you adapt to injury, arthritis, the slow down that comes with age, etc. Do not try to predict what throws you're going to use/need as you get older - you're just wasting your time.

If you compete going to sacrifice throws as "go-to's" is dangerous because refs may make the call against you unless you make the rotation yourself. This can be a factor with tani if uke turns into you on the way down. I used sumi-gaeshi in shiai as a go-to throw (37-39) but now am refocussing on non-sutemi tachiwaza because of the danger of screwing it up. One of our coaches keeps telling me to stop throwing myself, so I've been working on limiting sacrifice throws to where the opportunity really shows itself, I'm dead-beat tired, or uke is being careless and overattacks. I really like Stacey's post... above mine.

Dave R. wrote:

genetic judoka wrote:I know the end of my ability to do a wicked harai goshi against a resisting opponent isn't that far down the road. I already dabble with yoko otoshi, sumi gaeshi, uki waza, an unorthodox tanei otoshi (a pretty safe version), and yoko tomoe nage. Im fairly successful with them in the dojo. and sometimes when my knees are bugging me I'll go whole randori sessions doing nothing but sumi gaeshi, but those throws get very little attention in practice compared to the standing waza that I specialize in.

so how young is too young to begin devoting more time to the throws I'm likely to specialize in during my later years? I can't help wondering if making the switch sooner than is absolutely necessary will help me to not be in as much pain during my off the mat hours later in life.

your thoughts?

I’m confused about something regarding your post. Why is it you think your ability to perform harai goshi against a resisting opponent will be at an end not too far down the road? Is this a throw you power through or something like that? The reason why I’m confused is because in my mind the same basic principles one needs to execute sutemi-waza are there for all other forms of waza. What is wrong with your knees? Do your knee issues go beyond tendonitis (i.e. ACL tear)?

Also, in my opinion I think anyone of any age should practice sutemi-waza. There are situations in randori and shiai where the best response to a particular opportunity is sutemi-waza and I don’t think one should think about, “Well, I’m too young for sutemi-waza.” There are moments where I end up doing sutemi-waza simply because it’s the right response to an opportunity and I do it without thinking about it.

Hanon wrote:
On a side not the knees and legs in sutmei waza are utilised to the full and need to be in good condition for a successful sutemi execution. A judoka with a knee or leg problem 'may' find execution of sutemi waza more of a challenge?

Mike

I was thinking the same thing when I read the original post. In other words, I don’t think that sutemi-waza prevents or protects knee or leg issues.

well here's the thing. I love forward throws. and no I do not power through harai goshi (it's an option if I screw it up royally, but it's not the norm or by any means the goal). I also really enjoy throws like uki goshi and tsurikomi goshi. but my knees do not enjoy them. the issues my knees face are mainly tendonitis with some concerns for the health of my cartilage. so the problem with throws like harai goshi and tsurikomi goshi is that being ridiculously tall I need to squat down low to do these throws. I have a friend that I train with who is like 5'-5" if not shorter. he doesn't have to bend his knees at all for his favorite throw, which is hane goshi. he can probably do that throw til he's 80 no problem. I don't have that option.

the problem for me is squatting down low, and staying there stably long enough to complete the throw. it's already starting to become a problem. now I can still do harai goshi no problem. but if I devote any serious time to practicing it (like doing lots of uchikomi, the way one would do with a throw they like to use in competition) my knees kill me for the rest of the week. compare that to sutemi waza, where I'm not requiring my knees to support my weight while half way bent, because I'm dropping all the way to the ground. I can do sumi gaeshi (at least my version of it, which is more like a cross between uki waza and sumi gaeshi) all day long. now, normal tomoe nage I can't do very well, and I can see that being what people picture when I talk about sutemi waza and my knees. and yes, if that was the throw I was talking about, then my knees being an issue would make sutemi waza harder. but by the very nature of sutemi waza (dropping to the ground to complete the throw instead of squatting down half way) I feel it's easier on my knees.

genetic judoka wrote:well here's the thing. I love forward throws. and no I do not power through harai goshi (it's an option if I screw it up royally, but it's not the norm or by any means the goal). I also really enjoy throws like uki goshi and tsurikomi goshi. but my knees do not enjoy them. the issues my knees face are mainly tendonitis with some concerns for the health of my cartilage. so the problem with throws like harai goshi and tsurikomi goshi is that being ridiculously tall I need to squat down low to do these throws. I have a friend that I train with who is like 5'-5" if not shorter. he doesn't have to bend his knees at all for his favorite throw, which is hane goshi. he can probably do that throw til he's 80 no problem. I don't have that option.

the problem for me is squatting down low, and staying there stably long enough to complete the throw. it's already starting to become a problem. now I can still do harai goshi no problem. but if I devote any serious time to practicing it (like doing lots of uchikomi, the way one would do with a throw they like to use in competition) my knees kill me for the rest of the week. compare that to sutemi waza, where I'm not requiring my knees to support my weight while half way bent, because I'm dropping all the way to the ground. I can do sumi gaeshi (at least my version of it, which is more like a cross between uki waza and sumi gaeshi) all day long. now, normal tomoe nage I can't do very well, and I can see that being what people picture when I talk about sutemi waza and my knees. and yes, if that was the throw I was talking about, then my knees being an issue would make sutemi waza harder. but by the very nature of sutemi waza (dropping to the ground to complete the throw instead of squatting down half way) I feel it's easier on my knees.

I forgot you are tall.

If I recall correctly you're in your mid 20's. I'm in my late 30's and I have issues with tendonitis lately over the past two weeks though right now my knees feel great. Perhaps we both need to be proactive in treatment and by that I mean icing knees after practice. Heck, if you see many professional athletes in their 20's they have knee wraps, elbow wraps, shoulder wraps, and they probably ice their bodies after games. These guys are the best of the best. Do you do anything currently?

Have you considered doing any strength training? Over the past year I've been hitting the gym and I've seen great results in terms of overall strength gains especially in my legs. I feel more durable.

I do see your point about shorter people. I'm 5'6" and I wasn't fond of my height until I started doing Judo. Being short helps so I can see where you can struggle.

Could it simply be over-training and not your age? From past comments you've made, it sounds like you're in the dojo several days a week. At most, I get to go twice a week because of career demands. I'm 53 and, aside from a torn ACL and fractured tibia plateau I suffered a couple of years ago, my knees are still in pretty good shape. Between practices I do uchikomi with my belt tied to a beam and do my stretching warm-ups. The orthopedic doctor told me I'd get arthritis in the injured leg eventually, but so far, so good. Maybe you're just overdoing it and need to give your knees a break.

At my age, my favorite throw is seoi-otosh. After my knee injury, I pretty much had to let my drop-knee seoi-nage go to the wayside, but seoi-otoshi works well for me. I work on ashi-waza a lot, because they tend to rely on timing, not strength so much. My favorite sutemi-waza would be yoko-guruma, which I use as a counter frequently. I've recently been working on ura nage with some success as a counter also. My yoko otoshi is pretty decent as well, but I wouldn't use it until the last 20 seconds of a match if I was competing.

GregW wrote:Could it simply be over-training and not your age? From past comments you've made, it sounds like you're in the dojo several days a week. At most, I get to go twice a week because of career demands. I'm 53 and, aside from a torn ACL and fractured tibia plateau I suffered a couple of years ago, my knees are still in pretty good shape. Between practices I do uchikomi with my belt tied to a beam and do my stretching warm-ups. The orthopedic doctor told me I'd get arthritis in the injured leg eventually, but so far, so good. Maybe you're just overdoing it and need to give your knees a break.

At my age, my favorite throw is seoi-otosh. After my knee injury, I pretty much had to let my drop-knee seoi-nage go to the wayside, but seoi-otoshi works well for me. I work on ashi-waza a lot, because they tend to rely on timing, not strength so much. My favorite sutemi-waza would be yoko-guruma, which I use as a counter frequently. I've recently been working on ura nage with some success as a counter also. My yoko otoshi is pretty decent as well, but I wouldn't use it until the last 20 seconds of a match if I was competing.

Thats actually quite an uplifting post Greg W. I was thinking for sometime about asking if and/or what age seoinage becomes a young mans throw and if you enjoy quite similar at 53 with those prior injuries, that helps alot with my question.

genetic judoka wrote:we all know older judoka that due to one injury or another (ok maybe a bunch of them combined) have begun focusing on sutemi waza. some have even said that sutemi waza were included in the gokyo with older judoka in mind. so the real question here is: how young is too young to begin refining one's application of sutemi waza because of injuries?

to be clear, I am not to that point yet. nowhere near it. I'm 26 and still invincible. my knees still have some life in them. in fact they're better now than they were a few months ago.

but they're showing signs of breaking down. I know the end of my ability to do a wicked harai goshi against a resisting opponent isn't that far down the road. I already dabble with yoko otoshi, sumi gaeshi, uki waza, an unorthodox tanei otoshi (a pretty safe version), and yoko tomoe nage. Im fairly successful with them in the dojo. and sometimes when my knees are bugging me I'll go whole randori sessions doing nothing but sumi gaeshi, but those throws get very little attention in practice compared to the standing waza that I specialize in.

so how young is too young to begin devoting more time to the throws I'm likely to specialize in during my later years? I can't help wondering if making the switch sooner than is absolutely necessary will help me to not be in as much pain during my off the mat hours later in life.

your thoughts?

I vote, keep developing the basic fave forward throws you have and lose the gaurd(newaza) and reversals. I believe this will make you a better fighter in the long run as well.

I am also having similar issues. I tend to focus on ashiwaza especially when the tendinitis is acting up.

Q mystic wrote:
I vote, keep developing the basic fave forward throws you have and lose the gaurd(newaza) and reversals. I believe this will make you a better fighter in the long run as well.

I'm not sure I follow. I don't really do reversals, I'll either counter with ashi waza (or sometimes koshi waza, against things like osoto gari) or I'll step around and launch attacks of my own. I don't understand where, how or why the use of the guard in newaza comes into play. I remember you saying you don't like the guard, so I assume it's just personal bias showing through.