Is pushing on the face a legit move?

Is pushing on the face a legit move? For example, tori's lapel hand pushes on uke's face/chin during osoto gari. I know it's effective, and people do it all the time in shiai. But how about just in randori? I feel it's somehow rude.

Edit: I didnt mean the hand to face directly, but just part of your fist, while having a grip on the lapel, pushes uke's chin up or pushes against the side of uke's head.

Ed

Ed,

First of all ... winter camp is December 28 and 29 ... more adults this year. Hope you can make it.

Your question ... yes, there are rules.

From the IJF refereeing rules prohibit sticking stuff in the face, and further it defines in an appendix what the face is.

But I 'spect you are really asking about something else, about unwritten rules in the dojo?

BillC wrote:Ed,

First of all ... winter camp is December 28 and 29 ... more adults this year.  Hope you can make it.

Your question ... yes, there are rules.

From the IJF refereeing rules prohibit sticking stuff in the face, and further it defines in an appendix what the face is.

But I 'spect you are really asking about something else, about unwritten rules in the dojo?

Yea I didnt mean hand to face directly, but just part of your fist, while having a grip on the lapel, push uke's chin up or push on the side of uke's head.

edbiology wrote:

BillC wrote:Ed,

First of all ... winter camp is December 28 and 29 ... more adults this year.  Hope you can make it.

Your question ... yes, there are rules.

From the IJF refereeing rules prohibit sticking stuff in the face, and further it defines in an appendix what the face is.

But I 'spect you are really asking about something else, about unwritten rules in the dojo?

Yea I didnt mean hand to face directly, but just part of your fist, while having a grip on the lapel, push uke's chin up or push on the side of uke's head.

Have to be careful about what I say because chances are I know the person to whom you are referring, right? Ha ha.

I mean ... shit happens ... and sometimes in an attempt to make a throw that just seems "there" this kind of thing happens. The chin lift for kouchigari is in books like "Best Judo" for example. It's legit. Moving the head for osotogari same thing.

But I know what you mean, guys that kick shins or box ears or rabbit punch or cross-face with no particular reason or result other than to be Richards ... over and over and over and over ... you just gotta tell them "hey man, that's not cool, and not even effective." If they persist you can try the San Shi Floppy or the very persuasive 5-on-2 ... "oh, I am sorry, my hand slipped."

Tell Matt-sensei I hope he feels better. The flyers are in the mail and that I look forward to seeing you all in force at Camp. "Stay standing" scrimmage at the end of the day this year.

BillC wrote:

edbiology wrote:

BillC wrote:Ed,

First of all ... winter camp is December 28 and 29 ... more adults this year.  Hope you can make it.

Your question ... yes, there are rules.

From the IJF refereeing rules prohibit sticking stuff in the face, and further it defines in an appendix what the face is.

But I 'spect you are really asking about something else, about unwritten rules in the dojo?

Yea I didnt mean hand to face directly, but just part of your fist, while having a grip on the lapel, push uke's chin up or push on the side of uke's head.

Have to be careful about what I say because chances are I know the person to whom you are referring, right?  Ha ha.

I mean ... shit happens ... and sometimes in an attempt to make a throw that just seems "there" this kind of thing happens.  The chin lift for kouchigari is in books like "Best Judo" for example.  It's legit.  Moving the head for osotogari same thing.

But I know what you mean, guys that kick shins or box ears or rabbit punch or cross-face with no particular reason or result other than to be Richards ... over and over and over and over ... you just gotta tell them "hey man, that's not cool, and not even effective."  If they persist you can try the San Shi Floppy or the very persuasive 5-on-2 ... "oh, I am sorry, my hand slipped."

Tell Matt-sensei I hope he feels better.  The flyers are in the mail and that I look forward to seeing you all in force at Camp.  "Stay standing" scrimmage at the end of the day this year.

Heisei doesn't have practices during the thanksgiving week, I will be at Sanshi this week! And I am a little embarrassed to say, I was not talking about someone else, but I am thinking if I should start practicing it. I was watching the Kosei Inoue instruction DVDs, some of his techniques emphasize on unbalancing uke's head by pushing it.

"The face" in judo is defined as that that would be covered by a mask.

Side of head, chin etc are OK.......

Lifting chins, cuffing ears all part of the game   nothing worse than an overpowering high behind back of neck grip keeping you down, most annoying.

[quote="edbiology"][quote="BillC"][quote="edbiology"]

BillC wrote:Ed,
. I was watching the Kosei Inoue instruction DVDs, some of his techniques emphasize on unbalancing uke's head by pushing it.

I had the pleasure of couple of coaching sessions with Inoue a few years ago. With o soto gari he he did encourage the driving of the lapel hand into the neck / lower jaw area, but not the face

Yamashita refers to lifting the chin also in his osotogari masterclass book. There is also mention of pushing hand upward toward uke's nose while holding the lapel in the same volume.

edbiology wrote: I was watching the Kosei Inoue instruction DVDs, some of his techniques emphasize on unbalancing uke's head by pushing it.

Ed ... sure, you should practice that ... with a person of appropriate size ... remember that you are taller than most and it changes the game.

Remember the "rule of cows?"  Out on the open range a cow is going to move in the direction its head is pointed.  Facing away from the road ... slow down but you are probably OK ... cow facing you or the road ... get ready to hit the brakes hard.  This is true also of humans, at least to say we don't move so well when we move in a direction we are not looking ... note that the next time you see a car swerving on I-15 and when you pass you see some sweet young thing just texting away.

Also, even the people whose skulls you figure must contain a vacuum rivaling that of deep, deep space ... even those people have a heavy melon ... and moving that useless lump above the shoulders from over the supporting base helps destroy the balance.

But to repeat ... you go clonking people in the head with no particular skill or effect other than to be annoying, or even if you are just making clumsy attempts and having that effect ... you might expect a flying lesson in return ... or a standing armbar demo ... or an introduction to the wall or gym floor ... or the aforementioned 5-on-2.

If someone is deliberately loosening the jacket to continually fist you around the head area in randori. Then tell them your not happy about it if they do it again just bow and walk off find another to practice with.
Life's to short to put up with idiots but as I said its part of the game if hes a low grade then you can help him get over his "I have watched .... on video" so that's how I'm going to try it.
If its a fellow dan grade then walk......