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    correct ukemi for osoto-otoshi

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    justcurious


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    Post by justcurious Sun Jan 19, 2014 1:24 am

    The BJA mon syllabus shows the first breakfall taught as ushiro ukemi and the first throw as osoto-otoshi. Why???? Yoko ukemi is taught later on (but after the student has already been taught and practised osoto-otoshi.
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    tafftaz


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    Post by tafftaz Sun Jan 19, 2014 2:45 am

    A half decent instructor would only use the bja syllabus as a guideline. I do not follow it to the letter, if anything I use it only as a very broad guideline for junior grading requirements.. Anyone with any commonsense would see what ukemi should be taught with whatever technique is being learnt.
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    Post by medo Sun Jan 19, 2014 7:11 am

    Osoto otoshi I have always classed as a step through technique overstretch the supporting leg position and incorrect kuzushi easily countered by anyone. Waste of time teaching it to preadolescence even if the intention is a light breakful for uke. I have seen it taught as a complete dominance technique with a high grip to small children not a hope in hell of it working particularly as beginners stiff arm (unless teaching a hopping version.. not for beginners)

    If the desire is to create a "near" ushiro ukemi then better teaching a "light" ouchi gari I have never understood osoto otoshi as a first throw?
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    Post by BillC Sun Jan 19, 2014 8:20 am

    Sorry ... I am overstepping my bounds, my rank, and international borders here ... but is someone f***ing nuts?!

    Osotootoshi ... properly done ... is perhaps the most brutal and dangerous throw in judo. Ushiro ukemi indeed. Uke falls nearly straight down on his/her head ... which is why it is in the goshinjutsu.

    What am I missing here? Either a different osotootoshi is being taught, or little ones are going to grow up and not do so good on their college entrance exams.
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    Post by medo Sun Jan 19, 2014 8:44 am

    BillC wrote:Sorry ... I am overstepping my bounds, my rank, and international borders here ... but is someone f***ing nuts?!

    Osotootoshi ... properly done ... is perhaps the most brutal and dangerous throw in judo.  Ushiro ukemi indeed.  Uke falls nearly straight down on his/her head ... which is why it is in the goshinjutsu.

    What am I missing here?  Either a different osotootoshi is being taught, or little ones are going to grow up and not do so good on their college entrance exams.

    http://vimeo.com/51054541

    Here is a typical beginners teaching of osoto otoshi in the uk's NGB.

    The video lacks emphasis on kuzushi(breaking balance by pulling elbow down, keeping rear of jacket taut, and small rotation of shoulders).  The technique is very watered down for beginners, mainly used to lay uke down to support ukemi and discarded quickly as ineffective.
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    still learning


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    Post by still learning Sun Jan 19, 2014 9:47 am

    medo wrote: mainly used to lay uke down to support ukemi and discarded quickly as ineffective.

    You are indeed correct. I can recall a coaching session when Colin McIver of the BJA extolled the benefits of using this throw as a first technique as it was safe to learn breakfalls from when done in this manner, whilst also giving beginners a sense of what judo is about. I have paraphrased his comments but remain unconvinced as to there validity.

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    Post by Cichorei Kano Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:14 am

    To chime in with some additional info, ô-soto-otoshi is not even retained in the current gokyô. It was the last but one throw of the 4th group of the old 1895 gokyô hence indicating it is definitely meant as an advanced technique within the pedagogical views held by Kanô Jigorô.

    Kanô-shihan believed that throws whereby uke can be glided on his side were the safest and most appropriate for beginners.

    The data produced by Professor Uchida Ryô from Nagoya University which reported 114 deaths in children between 1983-2009 attribute at least one fatality that I can remember off the top of my head to ô-soto-otoshi used in children.
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    Post by medo Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:40 am

    The UK NGB has always looked to be different, some great minds up there!  Shocked However got to say went to a competition a few months ago and only watched a couple off two kneed drop seoi in the whole competition. Where two years ago what ever mat you watched pretty much 90% of attacks were drop seoi. So an improvement me thinks!
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    Post by BillC Sun Jan 19, 2014 3:54 pm

    medo wrote:

    http://vimeo.com/51054541

    Here is a typical beginners teaching of osoto otoshi in the uk's NGB.

    The video lacks emphasis on kuzushi(breaking balance by pulling elbow down, keeping rear of jacket taut, and small rotation of shoulders).  The technique is very watered down for beginners, mainly used to lay uke down to support ukemi and discarded quickly as ineffective.

    Hmmm ... thanks for the explanation.  The first thing that occurs to me when listening to the speaker is that the two references throws shown on the on the video are neither osotootoshi nor taiotoshi.  Maybe a good drill in the hands of a good instructor with a clear agenda ... but in general it's bad idea to use a monkey wrench as a hammer ... maybe a good idea not to call these throws at all.  The 14 year olds referred to are mature enough to understand "this is a drill to safely develop throwing techniques to be learned later."

    But still ... why put the foot on the floor after all?  The drill is actually just done walking to the side past uke and and laying uke down.  After seeing more than one busted knee from crappy osotogari of this type ... reference Stacey's previous gripes in another thread ... I am not sure I would train a student to put a foot on the floor and push their opponent over that leg.  My students get their peepees whacked with a shinai for doing that (kidding ... sort of).
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    Post by justcurious Sun Jan 19, 2014 10:12 pm

    Thanks everyone for your contributions. I wonder whether we could go back to the original question! The BJA syllabus shows the very first two techniques taught to beginners as ushiro ukemi and them osoto-otoshi. My question was how this could be possible since osoto-otoshi requires a yoko ukemi while tori keeps hold of uke's sleeve (therefore making it impossible for uke to use ushiro ukemi). I was not asking about the usefullness of the throw itself, only the correct breakfall that accompanies it. Thanks everyone.
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    Post by medo Sun Jan 19, 2014 11:58 pm

    justcurious wrote:Thanks everyone for your contributions. I wonder whether we could go back to the original question! The BJA syllabus shows the very first two techniques taught to beginners as ushiro ukemi and them osoto-otoshi. My question was how this could be possible since osoto-otoshi requires a yoko ukemi while tori keeps hold of uke's sleeve (therefore making it impossible for uke to use ushiro ukemi). I was not asking about the usefullness of the throw itself, only the correct breakfall that accompanies it. Thanks everyone.

    Ushiro ukemi is a ukemi that has few throws to practice from as (morote gari comes to mind as one) it involves tori letting go of uki's arms, hence my putting "near" ushiro.
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    Post by justcurious Mon Jan 20, 2014 12:48 am

    medo wrote:
    justcurious wrote:Thanks everyone for your contributions. I wonder whether we could go back to the original question! The BJA syllabus shows the very first two techniques taught to beginners as ushiro ukemi and them osoto-otoshi. My question was how this could be possible since osoto-otoshi requires a yoko ukemi while tori keeps hold of uke's sleeve (therefore making it impossible for uke to use ushiro ukemi). I was not asking about the usefullness of the throw itself, only the correct breakfall that accompanies it. Thanks everyone.

    Ushiro ukemi is a ukemi that has few throws to practice from as (morote gari comes to mind as one) it involves tori letting go of uki's arms, hence my putting "near" ushiro.

    Thanks Medo, but osoto-otoshi doesn't involve letting go of both of uke's arms so how can the ukemi be anything other than side?
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    Post by jkw Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:04 am

    medo wrote:
    http://vimeo.com/51054541

    I rarely comment on videos, but the action on uke's knee for some of the tai-otoshi clips is terrifying.
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    Post by medo Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:13 am

    jkw wrote:
    medo wrote:
    http://vimeo.com/51054541

    I rarely comment on videos, but the action on uke's knee for some of the tai-otoshi clips is terrifying.

    This one is even better  Sad      

    http://vimeo.com/channels/sportivate/51054543
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    Post by jkw Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:16 am

    justcurious wrote:Thanks everyone for your contributions. I wonder whether we could go back to the original question! The BJA syllabus shows the very first two techniques taught to beginners as ushiro ukemi and them osoto-otoshi. My question was how this could be possible since osoto-otoshi requires a yoko ukemi while tori keeps hold of uke's sleeve (therefore making it impossible for uke to use ushiro ukemi). I was not asking about the usefullness of the throw itself, only the correct breakfall that accompanies it. Thanks everyone.

    I disagree with your interpretation of the syllabus, at least this version of it:
    http://www.britishjudo.org.uk/pdf/SeniorKyuGradeSyllabusPictorialGuide.pdf

    The syllabus for 6th-kyu lists five categories: fundamental skills, tachi-waza, performance skills, personal choice and terminology.

    Within 'fundamental skills' are (1) ushiro-ukemi, (2) yoko-ukemi and (3) mae-mawari-ukemi. Therefore a strict reading of the syllabus would suggest that all three are expected to be taught before the three throwing techniques o-soto-otoshi, de-ashi-barai and uki-goshi. These are listed as (4), (5) and (6) respectively - again reinforcing the notion that they be taught after the three ukemi.

    To me, nothing suggests that a beginning student be shown only ushiro-ukemi, followed by o-soto-otoshi.
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    Post by justcurious Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:21 am

    jkw wrote:
    justcurious wrote:Thanks everyone for your contributions. I wonder whether we could go back to the original question! The BJA syllabus shows the very first two techniques taught to beginners as ushiro ukemi and them osoto-otoshi. My question was how this could be possible since osoto-otoshi requires a yoko ukemi while tori keeps hold of uke's sleeve (therefore making it impossible for uke to use ushiro ukemi). I was not asking about the usefullness of the throw itself, only the correct breakfall that accompanies it. Thanks everyone.

    I disagree with your interpretation of the syllabus, at least this version of it:
    http://www.britishjudo.org.uk/pdf/SeniorKyuGradeSyllabusPictorialGuide.pdf

    The syllabus for 6th-kyu lists five categories: fundamental skills, tachi-waza, performance skills, personal choice and terminology.

    Within 'fundamental skills' are (1) ushiro-ukemi, (2) yoko-ukemi and (3) mae-mawari-ukemi. Therefore a strict reading of the syllabus would suggest that all three are expected to be taught before the three throwing techniques o-soto-otoshi, de-ashi-barai and uki-goshi. These are listed as (4), (5) and (6) respectively - again reinforcing the notion that they be taught after the three ukemi.

    To me, nothing suggests that a beginning student be shown only ushiro-ukemi, followed by o-soto-otoshi.

    Thanks, but I was referring to the MON syllabus (not the KYU syllabus) where only ushiro ukemi is shown with the throw.
    See page 8 - http://www.britishjudo.org.uk/sites/default/files/Mon%20Grading%20Syllabus%20Oct%202013.pdf


    Last edited by justcurious on Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:23 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added page number)
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    Post by jkw Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:25 am

    justcurious wrote:
    jkw wrote:
    justcurious wrote:Thanks everyone for your contributions. I wonder whether we could go back to the original question! The BJA syllabus shows the very first two techniques taught to beginners as ushiro ukemi and them osoto-otoshi. My question was how this could be possible since osoto-otoshi requires a yoko ukemi while tori keeps hold of uke's sleeve (therefore making it impossible for uke to use ushiro ukemi). I was not asking about the usefullness of the throw itself, only the correct breakfall that accompanies it. Thanks everyone.

    I disagree with your interpretation of the syllabus, at least this version of it:
    http://www.britishjudo.org.uk/pdf/SeniorKyuGradeSyllabusPictorialGuide.pdf

    The syllabus for 6th-kyu lists five categories: fundamental skills, tachi-waza, performance skills, personal choice and terminology.

    Within 'fundamental skills' are (1) ushiro-ukemi, (2) yoko-ukemi and (3) mae-mawari-ukemi. Therefore a strict reading of the syllabus would suggest that all three are expected to be taught before the three throwing techniques o-soto-otoshi, de-ashi-barai and uki-goshi. These are listed as (4), (5) and (6) respectively - again reinforcing the notion that they be taught after the three ukemi.

    To me, nothing suggests that a beginning student be shown only ushiro-ukemi, followed by o-soto-otoshi.

    Thanks, but I was referring to the MON syllabus (not the KYU syllabus) where only ushiro ukemi is shown with the throw.
    See page 8 - http://www.britishjudo.org.uk/sites/default/files/Mon%20Grading%20Syllabus%20Oct%202013.pdf

    Sorry - I see that you did specify this in your original post. I didn't know there was such a thing. It was only kyu/dan when I was starting out - quite confusing!
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    Post by justcurious Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:29 am

    jkw wrote:
    justcurious wrote:
    jkw wrote:
    justcurious wrote:Thanks everyone for your contributions. I wonder whether we could go back to the original question! The BJA syllabus shows the very first two techniques taught to beginners as ushiro ukemi and them osoto-otoshi. My question was how this could be possible since osoto-otoshi requires a yoko ukemi while tori keeps hold of uke's sleeve (therefore making it impossible for uke to use ushiro ukemi). I was not asking about the usefullness of the throw itself, only the correct breakfall that accompanies it. Thanks everyone.

    I disagree with your interpretation of the syllabus, at least this version of it:
    http://www.britishjudo.org.uk/pdf/SeniorKyuGradeSyllabusPictorialGuide.pdf

    The syllabus for 6th-kyu lists five categories: fundamental skills, tachi-waza, performance skills, personal choice and terminology.

    Within 'fundamental skills' are (1) ushiro-ukemi, (2) yoko-ukemi and (3) mae-mawari-ukemi. Therefore a strict reading of the syllabus would suggest that all three are expected to be taught before the three throwing techniques o-soto-otoshi, de-ashi-barai and uki-goshi. These are listed as (4), (5) and (6) respectively - again reinforcing the notion that they be taught after the three ukemi.

    To me, nothing suggests that a beginning student be shown only ushiro-ukemi, followed by o-soto-otoshi.

    Thanks, but I was referring to the MON syllabus (not the KYU syllabus) where only ushiro ukemi is shown with the throw.
    See page 8 - http://www.britishjudo.org.uk/sites/default/files/Mon%20Grading%20Syllabus%20Oct%202013.pdf

    Sorry - I see that you did specify this in your original post. I didn't know there was such a thing. It was only kyu/dan when I was starting out - quite confusing!

    The MON grades simply refer to junior grades!
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    Post by Mountain Storm Mon Jan 20, 2014 2:15 am

    Justcurious – you are over thinking it....

    Think of the mon/kyu syllabus as a minimum standard, for each of the first few mon's just one throw, one hold and one breakfall are examined (plus a couple of personal choice throws/holds etc) - 1st mon examines a rear breakfall, 2nd mon a side breakfall, 3rd mon a rolling breakfall etc and you wouldn't ask a player to perform a rolling breakfall when being thrown with uki-otoshi (3rd mon).

    The average time between gradings is 4-6 months each mon, a player should know more than the bear minimum each time they are examined, a coach is also supposed to take into consideration randori and shiai skills as well.
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    Post by justcurious Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:45 am

    Mountain Storm wrote:Justcurious – you are over thinking it....

    Think of the mon/kyu syllabus as a minimum standard, for each of the first few mon's just one throw, one hold and one breakfall are examined (plus a couple of personal choice throws/holds etc) - 1st mon examines a rear breakfall, 2nd mon a side breakfall, 3rd mon a rolling breakfall etc and you wouldn't ask a player to perform a rolling breakfall when being thrown with uki-otoshi (3rd mon).

    The average time between gradings is 4-6 months each mon, a player should know more than the bear minimum each time they are examined, a coach is also supposed  to take into consideration randori and shiai skills as well.

    Thanks Mountain Storm
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    Post by Ben Reinhardt Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:20 am

    medo wrote:Osoto otoshi I have always classed as a step through technique overstretch the supporting leg position and incorrect kuzushi easily countered by anyone. Waste of time teaching it to preadolescence even if the intention is a light breakful for uke.  I have seen it taught as a complete dominance technique with a high grip to small children not a hope in hell of it working particularly as beginners stiff arm (unless teaching a hopping version.. not for beginners)

    If the desire is to create a "near" ushiro ukemi then better teaching a "light" ouchi gari I have never understood osoto otoshi as a first throw?  

    I use Ouchi Gari and ouchi gari like "throws" as part of an ushiro ukemi skill progression. Lots of other drills as well for ushiro ukemi, but ouchi gari (like) stuff works well as a bridge to a "real throw".

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    Post by medo Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:11 pm

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    medo wrote:Osoto otoshi I have always classed as a step through technique overstretch the supporting leg position and incorrect kuzushi easily countered by anyone. Waste of time teaching it to preadolescence even if the intention is a light breakful for uke.  I have seen it taught as a complete dominance technique with a high grip to small children not a hope in hell of it working particularly as beginners stiff arm (unless teaching a hopping version.. not for beginners)

    If the desire is to create a "near" ushiro ukemi then better teaching a "light" ouchi gari I have never understood osoto otoshi as a first throw?  

    I use Ouchi Gari and ouchi gari like "throws" as part of an ushiro ukemi skill progression. Lots of other drills as well for ushiro ukemi, but ouchi gari (like) stuff works well as a bridge to a "real throw".


    I found ushiro ukemi is the timid beginners confidence booster, loads of drills as you say. Yoko ukemi is often done by a newbie with the arm high, stretching to protect the head takes a little time to get beginners to feel confident doing solo yoko.




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    Post by Ben Reinhardt Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:55 am

    medo wrote:
    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    medo wrote:Osoto otoshi I have always classed as a step through technique overstretch the supporting leg position and incorrect kuzushi easily countered by anyone. Waste of time teaching it to preadolescence even if the intention is a light breakful for uke.  I have seen it taught as a complete dominance technique with a high grip to small children not a hope in hell of it working particularly as beginners stiff arm (unless teaching a hopping version.. not for beginners)

    If the desire is to create a "near" ushiro ukemi then better teaching a "light" ouchi gari I have never understood osoto otoshi as a first throw?  

    I use Ouchi Gari and ouchi gari like "throws" as part of an ushiro ukemi skill progression. Lots of other drills as well for ushiro ukemi, but ouchi gari (like) stuff works well as a bridge to a "real throw".


    I found ushiro ukemi is the timid beginners confidence booster, loads of drills as you say. Yoko ukemi is often done by a newbie with the arm high, stretching to protect the head takes a little time to get beginners to feel confident doing solo yoko.

    It is good for tori as well, because of the throw like drills that can be done in which tori does not have to turn his back. Really, they are cooperative ukemi/body positioning drills.
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    Post by BillC Thu Jan 23, 2014 5:09 am

    Ben Reinhardt wrote:
    medo wrote:

    I found ushiro ukemi is the timid beginners confidence booster, loads of drills as you say. Yoko ukemi is often done by a newbie with the arm high, stretching to protect the head takes a little time to get beginners to feel confident doing solo yoko.

    It is good for tori as well, because of the throw like drills that can be done in which tori does not have to turn his back. Really, they are cooperative ukemi/body positioning drills.

    Yes, I have found the same to be true on both counts. The drill ... now that we understand the OP by way of the video ... is a good transition to throwing and being thrown, though in my opinion blocking the leg in the drill is not ideal as it leads to dangerous habits a few months down the road.

    I've seen a similar drill used to good effect by another Brit in which he has "tori" simply walk to the side while holding on as uke begins the ushiro ukemi. Not blocking the leg, and not calling it a throw.

    Yes, I agree it provides "uke" with a little tactile reassurance that seems to make the other important stuff fall in line (pun intended).

    Not to stretch things too far I hope, but I think the same feeling comes back in koshiknokata where it is way easier to make that straight back, straight-backed fall while flinging uke?
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    Post by Ben Reinhardt Thu Jan 23, 2014 7:08 am

    BillC wrote:
    medo wrote:

    http://vimeo.com/51054541

    Here is a typical beginners teaching of osoto otoshi in the uk's NGB.

    The video lacks emphasis on kuzushi(breaking balance by pulling elbow down, keeping rear of jacket taut, and small rotation of shoulders).  The technique is very watered down for beginners, mainly used to lay uke down to support ukemi and discarded quickly as ineffective.

    Hmmm ... thanks for the explanation.  The first thing that occurs to me when listening to the speaker is that the two references throws shown on the on the video are neither osotootoshi nor taiotoshi.  Maybe a good drill in the hands of a good instructor with a clear agenda ... but in general it's bad idea to use a monkey wrench as a hammer ... maybe a good idea not to call these throws at all.  The 14 year olds referred to are mature enough to understand "this is a drill to safely develop throwing techniques to be learned later."

    But still ... why put the foot on the floor after all?  The drill is actually just done walking to the side past uke and and laying uke down.  After seeing more than one busted knee from crappy osotogari of this type ... reference Stacey's previous gripes in another thread ... I am not sure I would train a student to put a foot on the floor and push their opponent over that leg.  My students get their peepees whacked with a shinai for doing that (kidding ... sort of).

    I watched the video. Good general idea, but Osoto-gari/otoshi like throws are not my first choice. However, I do find most kids of 10 or so years old can understand that they are not learning a "throw" but a bridge to throwing, a way to learn control and body positioning for uke and tori. They get it...

    My cue is basically for tori to move into position and for uke to execute the fall, no real "throwing" involved. Things can progress from there when control is satisfactory for an increment towards throwing.

    Even better is your moving version. After all, we want to end up doing dynamic judo anyway...

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