Troubleshooting issues with tachiwaza randori- help please?

Greetings,

I have been having generalised problems with tachiwaza randori. I tend to do significantly more poorly than I do in newaza or general technical practice of throws; I am far from brilliant at any of them but in tachiwaza unless I play strongly defensive most people I train with can toss me around the majority of the time. I have been trying for some time, with little success, to work out why this might be and what I should work on to improve it. Though I understand that it is difficult to make specific suggestions without actually seeing me train I am hoping some of you might have general troubleshooting advice, common problems and bad habits to look out for, things I should try, that you'd be willing to share?

Many thanks & warm regards

QS

I think it is often not one thing as to why someone keeps being thrown. Assuming the players are not very much bigger and stronger, (or smaller but a lot faster) then you just need to go through this period until your body gets used to responding to throws.

In general some advice would be for randori.

Don't be too defensive.

Try to go on with people a bit easier to build up confidence with throws.

Keep your stance. Don't keep switching right leg forward and then left leg forward.

Ty to prevent or neutralise the behind the neck grip.

Try not to let your neck be pulled down.

If you are right handed try to get a grip with both hands. I mean don't stand there holding Uke with one hand.

Try not to repeat the same attack more than twice.

Practise moving the opponent and then throwing.

Think of why you can't turn in for throws. For example for throws like taiotoshi and seionage you often have to create space to turn in.


(Does anyone disagree with any of these general comments?)

My first, best advice would be to ask your sensei for more specific guidance. He knows what you've been taught and is best qualified to assess your progress. Without a video or anything to go by, we can only offer very general suggestions.

Maybe it's just as simple as "defend less, attack more." Perhaps you are just hesitant to attack because you feel like it compromises your balance. When you realize that, to throw somebody, you are becoming unbalanced also, so you must commit fully to the attack. Maybe you need some combination options. If uke steps over your taiotoshi, redirect the attack to the side and attack again. Maybe you just need to feel the "ju" more which allows you to flow with an attack and avoid being thrown. Time and experience, plus listening to your sensei's guidance, will help you improve.

one thing I would suggest is taking your practice as uke in uchi komi and nage komi seriously. As uke, you're being taught what your body must do for tori to get the throw. Feel for weaknesses in the throw - if you were resisting, what would be the easiest way to resist? What could you do up to kake and taking the fall to resist? What of your throwing repertoire can be used as a counter, or when that particular throw doesn't establish proper kuzushi, or lets up on the pull or whatever? Then, work on those things when you are allowed to actively resist in randori.

But, generally, I'd say don't worry so much about being thrown - you can't be thrown if you're not being active and trying stuff out. If you're not being thrown, you're not learning.

Stacey wrote:one thing I would suggest is taking your practice as uke in uchi komi and nage komi seriously.  As uke, you're being taught what your body must do for tori to get the throw.  Feel for weaknesses in the throw - if you were resisting, what would be the easiest way to resist?  What could you do up to kake and taking the fall to resist?  What of your throwing repertoire can be used as a counter, or when that particular throw doesn't establish proper kuzushi, or lets up on the pull or whatever?  Then, work on those things when you are allowed to actively resist in randori.

But, generally, I'd say don't worry so much about being thrown - you can't be thrown if you're not being active and trying stuff out.  If you're not being thrown, you're not learning.

Building on what Ms. Stacey says, sounds like you are caught in the "not losing" eddy ... which is VERY difficult to swim out of.  Take heart, you are certainly not splashing around in there alone.  (I once "swam" Lower Disaster Falls in a life jacket so sometimes in life it's better to be eddy'd out ... well, actually it's usually better to stay in the boat ... but I digress.)

Meantime, while you are waiting for the big moment when the world will change for you and everything suddenly is OK ... and that's how it will occur ... in a flash ... there are things you can do.

How much time do you really spend training for randori?  If you are in a typical judo club, not much.  Warm ups, uchikomi, twenty minutes of "randori." In most clubs ... and if I read in between the lines this is what is going on in your head ... randori is just shiai with more frustration.  Instead ... if your instructor is open to it ... you might try different kinds of randori with agreeable partners ... to make that jump from the predictable to the successful surprise you hope to achieve.

-  Yakusoku geiko.  Trade throws with a partner in an agree-upon sequence.  Could be "I'll move around, you throw me at the right time and when you can take my balance."  Could be "I want you to push forward with your right hand over and over so I can throw you."  You can make it even more specific if you are trying to build past a particular frustration "I want to attack with osotogari and have you pull the leg back at which time I will throw you with taiotoshi."  Do these over and over and over and ...

-  Connect three, connect five.  Make three to five serious attacks with a neutral but live partner who does not, in this drill, does not know exactly what is coming.  For example hit him with kouchigari and when he steps back catch him with ouchigari and when he steps out of that go on to osotogari and when he steps away from that attack and in running out of mat throw him forward with tewaza by the third, fourth of fifth reaction.  Or just forward and back ... seoinage to kowaza, kowaza to koshiwaza ... side to side ... as uke circles ... etc.  Key point is to attack one direction and then take advantage of uke's defensive body movement to attack in another direction.  Think of a pendulum, or rocking a Coke machine until it falls over.  They MUST connect ... any hesitation and you lose your turn and your partner takes a turn.

-  Move, move, move, IN!  In a group setting, assign uke and tori roles.  Tori's job is to follow the voice command of the drill leader.  Uke's job is to be neutral ... but not a rag doll.  Leader commands "move him, move him, move him!" and tori moves uke in different directions.  At odd intervals of 10 to 15 seconds the leader shouts "IN!" a which time tori throws uke without hesitation in the direction uke is moving at that moment, without further "set up" and certainly without stopping and doing a "static nagekomi."  This is a more difficult drill than it seems, and forces tori sometimes to try throwing from awkward positions ... but it is the best drill I can think of to make you stop thinking about losing and just to throw.

-  Do the bump.  When you are getting tired, or hobbling a bit, try another special type of geiko.  Separate from your partner, then each try to get a dominant grip in as few moves as possible ... then immediately either shake your partner before he can get two hands on ... or bump hips before he can shake you or bump your hip.  Make sure the moment you get even one hand on your partner that you try to move him, break his balance a bit. The first to shake or do the bump "wins" and you IMMEDIATELY separate and start again. My guess is that this drill may help you best of all ... take the pressure off, put the emphasis on doing something effective to your partner.

Hope that helps ...  good luck!

Quicksilver wrote:Greetings,

I have been having generalised problems with tachiwaza randori. I tend to do significantly more poorly than I do in newaza or general technical practice of throws; I am far from brilliant at any of them but in tachiwaza unless I play strongly defensive most people I train with can toss me around the majority of the time. I have been trying for some time, with little success, to work out why this might be and what I should work on to improve it. Though I understand that it is difficult to make specific suggestions without actually seeing me train I am hoping some of you might have general troubleshooting advice, common problems and bad habits to look out for, things I should try, that you'd be willing to share?

Many thanks & warm regards

QS

What does your technical training for nage waza consist of ?

Many thanks to all who have responded, you've given me much to keep in mind.

Of course, consulting instructors in person is the most logical course of action, and I have done so, I enquire here simply because reading the varying comments and ways of stating them of different people can be particularly helpful.

Not committing properly to attacks is a problem I have, but I don't think this is my primarily issue because I have the same lack of success whether I make a deliberate effort to commit or not; I also don't think that excessive defensiveness due to a fear of getting thrown is the problem because taking falls is something I am very used to and, in and of itself, don't mind. (Also, I recognise that this is all easily explicable as a simple lack of practice and skill, except that tachiwaza is my worst area by such a significant margin that it seems likely there is something or things in particular that I can work on?)

BillC, thanks for your suggestions, they sound interesting and I'll certainly try them when I have a chance.

Ben Reinhardt, I am a 4th kyu with 2.5 years in Judo, the first year and a half of which due to spacial limitations at the only club I regularly trained at nagewaza training consisted primarily of uchikomi- the randori each class was more commonly newaza. Over the past year I've been training with another, larger club in addition to the first and have learned a lot but the problems I have with translating nagewaza from either static or moving practice to application in randori against a properly resistant partner- even one of similar weight and grade- persist. It is as though I recognise and understand what I should be trying to achieve, pulling it off just does not usually happen.

Warm regards.

Quicksilver wrote:Greetings,

I have been having generalised problems with tachiwaza randori. I tend to do significantly more poorly than I do in newaza or general technical practice of throws; I am far from brilliant at any of them but in tachiwaza unless I play strongly defensive most people I train with can toss me around the majority of the time. I have been trying for some time, with little success, to work out why this might be and what I should work on to improve it. Though I understand that it is difficult to make specific suggestions without actually seeing me train I am hoping some of you might have general troubleshooting advice, common problems and bad habits to look out for, things I should try, that you'd be willing to share?

Many thanks & warm regards

QS

Feel.

Allow yourself to feel.

It's logical. You know you trust your own feelings much more than what somebody tells you. So, allow yourself to feel.

Quicksilver wrote:Many thanks to all who have responded, you've given me much to keep in mind.

snipp...

Ben Reinhardt, I am a 4th kyu with 2.5 years in Judo, the first year and a half of which due to spacial limitations at the only club I regularly trained at nagewaza training consisted primarily of uchikomi- the randori each class was more commonly newaza. Over the past year I've been training with another, larger club in addition to the first and have learned a lot but the problems I have with translating nagewaza from either static or moving practice to application in randori against a properly resistant partner- even one of similar weight and grade- persist. It is as though I recognise and understand what I should be trying to achieve, pulling it off just does not usually happen.

Warm regards.

It's "normal" to struggle in randori, keep at it. In the meantime, you might try practicing with a more compliant uke in a "randori-like" way. Pick a throw and movement/grip pattern you want to work on, then do it. I suggest you actually throw (each other, fair is fair!) if appropriate and safe. You can add more resistance to uke as you go, then back off when you get to a sticking point, work on what you think you are doing "wrong" and then try again.

You have to progress towards more and more randori-like situations, in which you throw uke. You won't learn to throw without throwing under similar conditions to randori by just doing more randori with guys who are fighting you like their lives depend on it.

For example, grip move throw seoi nage. Then grip move throw seoi nage but uke resists by sinking his hips and leaning back. You reverse to throw with a throw to the rear. It is really a form of kata training at first, or yakusoku geiko/renshu. Reverse the situation...attack with a rear quadrant throw, uke pushes back, you do forward throw.

Start off simple, then get more complex in the pattern, add resistance, back down, analyze, drill the problem, work your way back up, etc.

I did not know of this question/call for help until after training today at the Coffee shop next to our Dojo,....

QUICKSILVER is one of my students, she has of course access to many many Instructors of all levels to call on for assistance at Sydney Uni Judo Club, as well as at my dojo and at the club closest to her home.

Quicksilver has a habit of self denegration when a particular technique does not work in the way Taught/Explained/Attempted.

A slight slump in performance recently earned a stern rebuke from one of the other instructors at the club and I was in (partial) agreement with that Instructor at the time.

Having read the comments above, from those who are far more qualified than me, and by Quicksilvers performance over the last two training sessions this weekend....which earned her praise yesterday from the Instructor who had previously admonished her...all I can say to those other Black belts who commented and put forward suggestions is ... THANKYOU ...

Steve Leadbeater wrote:
QUICKSILVER is one of my students, she ...

Well, I for one did not know Quicksilver was a "she" ... a woman (besides Madame Curie) who has a clue about chemistry. Who can imagine such a thing?!   

Congrats Ms. Quicksilver, you have been both complemented and outed by your sensei.  

In all seriousness, it sometimes makes a difference. As in the sciences, in judo women are more precious. Not by any means because of their "delicate nature" or anything like that. In judo, as in most technical and scientific fields women are horribly under-represented. So simply out of a sense of maintaining adequate numbers of students I feel women need special encouragement, and it's good to see someone getting such here on the good old ... errr ... new Judo Forum E-Budo.

Very many thanks to everyone who has responded, you've given me much to consider and been very helpful. 

Steve Leadbeater wrote:I did not know of this question/call for help until after training today at the Coffee shop next to our Dojo,....    

QUICKSILVER is one of my students, she has of course access to many many Instructors of all levels to call on for assistance at Sydney Uni Judo Club, as well as at my dojo and at the club closest to her home.

Quicksilver has a habit of self denegration when a particular technique does not work in the way Taught/Explained/Attempted.

A slight slump in performance recently earned a stern rebuke from one of the other instructors at the club and I was in (partial) agreement with that Instructor at the time.

Having read the comments above, from those who are far more qualified than me, and by Quicksilvers performance over the last two training sessions this weekend....which earned her praise yesterday from the Instructor who had previously admonished her...all I can say to those other Black belts who commented and put forward suggestions is   ...  THANKYOU   ...

Oh, erm, that strangely dissonant interaction between different contexts. To clarify
Steve, had I really not mentioned this before? Anyhow, if I tend to be critical of my work it is not without reason; these concerns are not a product of a specific occurrence but simply a recognition of an ongoing and empirically observable weakness in my Judo that I am looking for ways of working on. Thank you for the endorsement... I think?   Talk to you later.

Warm regards, and much gratitude for all the kindly provided advice.

QS

I am surprised you didn't mind his comments. I would have been irritated.

BillC wrote:

In all seriousness, it sometimes makes a difference.  As in the sciences, in judo women are more precious.  Not by any means because of their "delicate nature" or anything like that.  In judo, as in most technical and scientific fields women are horribly under-represented.  So simply out of a sense of maintaining adequate numbers of students I feel women need special encouragement, and it's good to see someone getting such here on the good old ... errr ... new Judo Forum E-Budo.

I'd raise some reservations regarding actively and specifically encouraging a particular group in an attempt to negate this sort of imbalance? As an approach it does of course have logic, particularly if your goal is just building club numbers, but I suspect that in this case the ultimate effect of trying to artificially induce a state of diversity- which will occur naturally if not prevented from doing so on a larger sociological scale- emphasises the presence of the apparent dichotomy and ultimately perpetuates it- and I think that many women would find being differentiated in that way because of their gender off-putting. Perhaps? Gender politics is... difficult.

Anyhow, I am highly appreciative that when I was new to Judo and the only female in my club I was treated not as a woman but simply as a person, but that is just me.

Warm regards.

samsmith2424 wrote:I am surprised you didn't mind his comments. I would have been irritated.

I would have confiscated his credit cards.

Cichorei Kano wrote:

samsmith2424 wrote:I am surprised you didn't mind his comments. I would have been irritated.

I would have confiscated his credit cards.

You did........years ago !!   

Quicksilver wrote:

BillC wrote:

In all seriousness, it sometimes makes a difference.  As in the sciences, in judo women are more precious.  Not by any means because of their "delicate nature" or anything like that.  In judo, as in most technical and scientific fields women are horribly under-represented.  So simply out of a sense of maintaining adequate numbers of students I feel women need special encouragement, and it's good to see someone getting such here on the good old ... errr ... new Judo Forum E-Budo.

I'd raise some reservations regarding actively and specifically encouraging a particular group in an attempt to negate this sort of imbalance? ... Gender politics is... difficult.

We are, just for a moment, taking the train off the track and down the freeway ... but it might be worth mentioning even in the context of your original post.

QS, I agree that reservations are called for ... or at least caution about motives. Because you are right, sexual politics are difficult. My comment about maintaining adequate numbers I do realize borders on cynicism. Would the revelation about your double X chromasome change my answer? No, not in this case.

Not going to hang any of the attitudes below on you, after all we do not know each other. But thank you for the chance to explain what I am thinking.

Yes, there are people in judo with a political and/or social agenda based on social perceptions around people's naturally assigned bodies, and I'll go beyond you and state that many of those are driven by strange ideas that cross well into the territory of ridiculousness. Using your example, some might accuse your male partners of poor judo if the out-muscle you, and you of poor judo because you are having difficult time applying the principle of ju. Others might want to find a segregated space where you more perfect creatures who are not poisoned by testosterone won't have to put up with stinky, cootie-infested boys and can wear your striped belt just like all the other "real" judoka. And there are still others who in their heart of hearts believe that women are a side show anyway, and amusement that is fine for the girls as long as they don't get in the way of filtering the strongest and meanest thugs out of the pool of physically superior men. As you note, pick a group stereotype, you and I will find them in judo.

But ... for an instructor not to take into account individual differences is equally ignorant. And that extra estrogen, just like the aforementioned androgen, needs to be at least considered. Common, though not universal differences in physicality such as upper body strength. Flexibility. The background of the student in terms of previous physical training or sports experience. Weight and perceptions about weight and muscle. Social differences, for example where are the student's same-sex friends hanging out, what are they doing, what are the relationship costs the student is being asked to sacrifice? Where is the student getting pressure at home and what are the assumptions about women there? As the years progress, is the student being "mommy-tracked" with child care responsibilities? None of these is applicable to all women, but on the flip side these are very common, externally imposed hurdles women are more likely to encounter in judo.

So yeah, I go out of my way to retain female students as much as I can in recognition of their individual needs ... nothing in the principles of judo say I should not ... in fact the opposite is true. I don't throw women who are not physically prepared into practice with large and enthusiastic men. Experience tells me they get hurt ... sometimes badly ... and quit. I don't assume that just before and after dinner time is the best time for the dojo to be open ... I try to keep open a Saturday morning practice ... experience tells me that this is a better time for women (and men) with kids. Our club established a "family class" where parents and young children can be on the mat at the same time.

Agenda in the big wide world? Won't work. Like it or not. More about that in another thread if anyone wants.

BillC wrote:
We are, just for a moment, taking the train off the track and down the freeway ... but it might be worth mentioning even in the context of your original post.

QS, I agree that reservations are called for ... or at least caution about motives.  Because you are right, sexual politics are difficult.  My comment about maintaining adequate numbers I do realize borders on cynicism.  Would the revelation about your double X chromasome change my answer?  No, not in this case.

Not going to hang any of the attitudes below on you, after all we do not know each other.  But thank you for the chance to explain what I am thinking.

Yes, there are people in judo with a political and/or social agenda based on social perceptions around people's naturally assigned bodies, and I'll go beyond you and state that many of those are driven by strange ideas that cross well into the territory of ridiculousness.  Using your example, some might accuse your male partners of poor judo if the out-muscle you, and you of poor judo because you are having difficult time applying the principle of ju.  Others might want to find a segregated space where you more perfect creatures who are not poisoned by testosterone won't have to put up with stinky, cootie-infested boys and can wear your striped belt just like all the other "real" judoka.  And there are still others who in their heart of hearts believe that women are a side show anyway, and amusement that is fine for the girls as long as they don't get in the way of filtering the strongest and meanest thugs out of the pool of physically superior men.  As you note, pick a group stereotype, you and I will find them in judo.

But ... for an instructor not to take into account individual differences is equally ignorant.  And that extra estrogen, just like the aforementioned androgen, needs to be at least considered.  Common, though not universal differences in physicality such as upper body strength.  Flexibility.  The background of the student in terms of previous physical training or sports experience.  Weight and perceptions about weight and muscle.  Social differences, for example where are the student's same-sex friends hanging out, what are they doing, what are the relationship costs the student is being asked to sacrifice?  Where is the student getting pressure at home and what are the assumptions about women there?  As the years progress, is the student being "mommy-tracked" with child care responsibilities?  None of these is applicable to all women, but on the flip side these are very common, externally imposed hurdles women are more likely to encounter in judo.

So yeah, I go out of my way to retain female students as much as I can in recognition of their individual needs ... nothing in the principles of judo say I should not ... in fact the opposite is true.  I don't throw women who are not physically prepared into practice with large and enthusiastic men.  Experience tells me they get hurt ... sometimes badly ... and quit.  I don't assume that just before and after dinner time is the best time for the dojo to be open ... I try to keep open a Saturday morning practice ... experience tells me that this is a better time for women (and men) with kids.  Our club established a "family class" where parents and young children can be on the mat at the same time.

Agenda in the big wide world?  Won't work.  Like it or not.  More about that in another thread if anyone wants.

Fair points well made, thank you for the clarification. Would it be a correct interpretation of the gist of your intentions to extrapolate that your reluctance to have inexperienced women train with far larger and more boisterous men is a general consideration that would apply to any similarly mismatched pair of judoka, regardless of gender? If you would as you say continue this discussion in another thread I suspect there are many to whom it may be of interest, myself included.

Warm regards.

Quicksilver wrote:

BillC wrote:

Agenda in the big wide world?  Won't work.  Like it or not.  More about that in another thread if anyone wants.

Fair points well made, thank you for the clarification. Would it be a correct interpretation of the gist of your intentions to extrapolate that your reluctance to have inexperienced women train with far larger and more boisterous men is a general consideration that would apply to any similarly mismatched pair of judoka, regardless of gender? If you would as you say continue this discussion in another thread I suspect there are many to whom it may be of interest, myself included.

Warm regards.

Yes, indeed ... any mismatched pair ... not always avoidance ... but control, appropriate caution, modification of practice where necessary.  I think it is a bad idea to have little kids on the same active mat as adult judoka for several reasons, but one is the experience of having a heavy pair of guys fall on a 5 year old and break the pup's leg.  Out of shape, overweight students ... starting or returning to judo to "get back into shape" are equally but uniquely dangerous ... they misjudge and overload the strength of their knees for example.  Someone in their '70s who can't quite give up the glory years and who insist on muscling the young bucks with a decomposing skeleton and a cardio-event-ready zipper installed on their chest?  Want them all in judo in proportional numbers ... but a "one size fits all" approach is insane.  Is that showing prejudice about kids, fat people, old farts ... well ... yes it is.  No way to immediately test their limits until it's too late, so have to fall back on what some people call stereotypes.  And this is only in the sphere of injury avoidance, from there the question becomes how to meet their individual goals in line with those of judo as a whole ... and with reality.

samsmith2424 wrote:I am surprised you didn't mind his comments. I would have been irritated.

Yeah, the whole thing is kinda odd, but, Quicksilver and Steve can work that out in person.

Ben Reinhardt wrote:

samsmith2424 wrote:I am surprised you didn't mind his comments. I would have been irritated.

Yeah, the whole thing is kinda odd, but, Quicksilver and Steve can work that out in person.

Like I said, awkward intersection of different contextual dynamics.

There you go, a purely social argument for the dead-horse of a debate about allowing anonymity in places like this. Though since Steve and I met via the old JF each of us having blackmail material on the other can't really be helped. Anyhow, digressions.

Warm regards.

Quicksilver wrote:

Ben Reinhardt wrote:

samsmith2424 wrote:I am surprised you didn't mind his comments. I would have been irritated.

Yeah, the whole thing is kinda odd, but, Quicksilver and Steve can work that out in person.

Like I said, awkward intersection of different contextual dynamics.

There you go, a purely social argument for the dead-horse of a debate about allowing anonymity in places like this. Though since Steve and I met via the old JF each of us having blackmail material on the other can't really be helped. Anyhow, digressions.

Warm regards.

I'm imagining you speaking in the same manner in which your write, all with a strong Aussie accent. Tell me it isn't so !

Ben Reinhardt wrote:

I'm imagining you speaking in the same manner in which your write, all with a strong Aussie accent. Tell me it isn't so !

Nay on the accent, insofar as I am aware. As for the rest...   

Quicksilver doesn't have a strong Aussie Accent, and as for the Blackmail material....no comment.

Steve Leadbeater wrote:Quicksilver doesn't have a strong Aussie Accent, and as for the Blackmail material....no comment.

I know about the red gi, but I propose we settle this over a good bottle of wine of my choice (paid for by you to underline our mutual friendship).