Randori and the fear of failure...

This is what I understand of Randori:

1. Randori is free practice.
2. You have the opportunity to try and implement what you have learnt in a more competative way than uchikomi.
3. Therefore, it doesn't matter if you don't get it right and get thrown, it is not shiai!
4. If you try something and it doesn't work, you can have another go and try again.

But despite the fact that I know this, I still tense up in Randori and concentrate more on what my partner is doing than what I'm doing!
I definately don't have a fear of falling. I'm only 5th Kyu in Judo, but I also have 10 years of wrestling experience, so I really don't mind getting thrown. Maybe it is an ego thing in my subconscious mind, but I don't know...
The problem is that I don't want to make mistakes. I only attack if there is a clear opening, which obviously means that I get very few attacks in. I know it doesn't matter if I make a mistake, but I still do and I get extremely annoyed at myself!

I'm pretty sure everyone went through this, so I would really like to hear how you got over that.

Thanks

sydvicious wrote:This is what I understand of Randori:

1. Randori is free practice.
2. You have the opportunity to try and implement what you have learnt in a more competative way than uchikomi.
3. Therefore, it doesn't matter if you don't get it right and get thrown, it is not shiai!
4. If you try something and it doesn't work, you can have another go and try again.

But despite the fact that I know this, I still tense up in Randori and concentrate more on what my partner is doing than what I'm doing!
I definately don't have a fear of falling. I'm only 5th Kyu in Judo, but I also have 10 years of wrestling experience, so I really don't mind getting thrown. Maybe it is an ego thing in my subconscious mind, but I don't know...
The problem is that I don't want to make mistakes. I only attack if there is a clear opening, which obviously means that I get very few attacks in. I know it doesn't matter if I make a mistake, but I still do and I get extremely annoyed at myself!

I'm pretty sure everyone went through this, so I would really like to hear how you got over that.

Thanks

Depending on who i'm partnered up with I sometimes suggest we go throw for throw in randori. If your partner agrees to this, its a good way of practising setting up your attacks and getting in multiple successfull throws. Sometimes my instructor will specifically tell us to go throw for throw, or attack and defend etc before ramping up the intensity.
I wrote a small peice about randori here http://stuartjudo.blogspot.co.uk/2014/02/what-is-randori.html

sydvicious wrote:This is what I understand of Randori:

1. Randori is free practice.
2. You have the opportunity to try and implement what you have learnt in a more competative way than uchikomi.
3. Therefore, it doesn't matter if you don't get it right and get thrown, it is not shiai!
4. If you try something and it doesn't work, you can have another go and try again.

But despite the fact that I know this, I still tense up in Randori and concentrate more on what my partner is doing than what I'm doing!
I definately don't have a fear of falling. I'm only 5th Kyu in Judo, but I also have 10 years of wrestling experience, so I really don't mind getting thrown. Maybe it is an ego thing in my subconscious mind, but I don't know...
The problem is that I don't want to make mistakes. I only attack if there is a clear opening, which obviously means that I get very few attacks in. I know it doesn't matter if I make a mistake, but I still do and I get extremely annoyed at myself!

I'm pretty sure everyone went through this, so I would really like to hear how you got over that.

Thanks

What Judostu wrote !

You need to be able to do successful attacks, be successful at what you are trying to learn, at different levels of difficulty (resistance, speed, direction of movement, etc). Rather than focus on randori, try the throw for throw training (yokosokurenshu). You can also drill sequences of movements you want to practice as if in randori and get a few repetitions in at them. Like "grip circle to your right Seoinage".

Nobody likes to fail, set up your practice so you have some success, and do less full on randori.

I agree with the other posters - you need to get your mind and body to reframe everything. One of the ways to do that is throw for throw. You might also want to look at getting thrown as a victory. Look at number of times you attacked, number of times you were countered as opposed to any idea that you're making a mistake. You already know the mistake you're making is in freezing up and paying too much attention to your partner. To loosen up, slow down the tempo a bit, go throw for throw, and congratulate yourself for each attack and each fall.

Instead of looking at it as all or nothing, look at it kinda like baseball - if you stand in the batter's box and don't take your cuts you have no chance of doing anything. If you take your cuts, you may strike out, you may fly or ground out, or you may get a hit. Better to take your cuts than to just stand there and take strikes.

Slow down the pace of randori. If you choose partners who are black belts, they'll only go as fast as you set the pace.

Concentrate on getting in as many attacks as you can.

Each fall you take is a victory.

And, if you need to, like you feel yourself tense up and can't relax, stop, drop your grip, take a deep breath, and come back to it when you've let that tension go. Any advanced student will respect that. you can also have an advanced student let you know when s/he feels you tense for no real reason. If you let your partners know that you are working on relaxing, they will help you work on relaxing.

sydvicious wrote:This is what I understand of Randori:

1. Randori is free practice.
2. You have the opportunity to try and implement what you have learnt in a more competative way than uchikomi.
3. Therefore, it doesn't matter if you don't get it right and get thrown, it is not shiai!
4. If you try something and it doesn't work, you can have another go and try again.

But despite the fact that I know this, I still tense up in Randori and concentrate more on what my partner is doing than what I'm doing!
I definately don't have a fear of falling. I'm only 5th Kyu in Judo, but I also have 10 years of wrestling experience, so I really don't mind getting thrown. Maybe it is an ego thing in my subconscious mind, but I don't know...
The problem is that I don't want to make mistakes. I only attack if there is a clear opening, which obviously means that I get very few attacks in. I know it doesn't matter if I make a mistake, but I still do and I get extremely annoyed at myself!

I'm pretty sure everyone went through this, so I would really like to hear how you got over that.

Thanks

We all tensed up in randori when were 5th kyû, and well just wanted to win and not be thrown. We all had a dead-grip on our partner doing everything not to be thrown cause every throw we underwent we felt as a loss of face and a loss of status: dominate, dominate, dominate, compete, compete, compete, everything was a contests, just like the majority of people compete at work, compete for bonuses, compete for the most ridiculous things with their spouse or boy-/girlfriend, compete by the car they drive or want to buy. So much of our education is not about human values but about being better/richer/prettier/stronger/faster than someone else. If competition would not dominate so much of our lives, people would not continuously fall subject to jealousy and envy and the range of all other human feelings that makes us into petty human being. The moral values which Kanô wanted to install was precisely to offer an alternative, namely that yawara, i.e. yielding and evading is a much less energy-draining attitude, one of relativity. Ultimately what you do on a jûdô tatami is not solely an evolution of your physical evolution but of a mental evolution. Their no shortcuts, only a way out if you care to give up. The choice is yours, some make it, others don't. And for what it's worth there are enough black belts around when it comes to that who have barely evolved since they were 5th kyû and testosterone still guide their every move in life whether on or off the tatami.

Everything you write just proves that you are normal.

How do you get over it ? By walking The Way, i.e. by practice and practice and staying in judo, accumulating experience and getting better and better.

" Their no shortcuts, only a way out if you care to give up. The choice is yours, some make it, others don't. And for what it's worth there are enough black belts around when it comes to that who have barely evolved since they were 5th kyû and testosterone still guide their every move in life whether on or off the tatami."

This is sooooo very true.

Syd, My guess is that you have the same problem that 95% of the 5kyu have. CK explained it well, I call it the death match syndrome. Many of my beginners do this, they block with their arms drop their heads and just try to survive. My  suggestion would be

1 Keep your head up improve your posture. You can't throw with your butt in another zip code.
2 loosen up your arms you are not only holding your opponent out but also your self.

Stand up straight don't drop your head, when you feel your arms getting stiff flop your elbows like a bird, get in close and relax.

Thanks for all the replies. Much appreciated   

I'll try and implement the suggestions next week.

Everyone has said it well.

Keep upright so that your weight is over your base (feet).  That way you can react to uke by moving with your feet and/or lowering your structure and not have your posture twisted.  
Keep your head up.  There's an old saying: 'Where the head goes, the body follows.'  By looking down, you have broken your own posture for uke.
Keep some inwards tension in your armpits so that your arms stay attached to your body (!)  Relax your lower arms and use your hands as latches to attach uke to you.  Think 'tyrannosaurus arms'.  If uke pulls, allow your arm to extend without dragging you forward off-balance.
Keep uke coming towards you.  Do not charge him or chase him.  Bring him to your centre, even if you are stepping towards him or stepping away.  Use your latches and the tension in your armpits.

There are, of course, a multitude of other things but if you can keep your posture, be light on your feet, and think of your hands as latches to bring uke towards you, you will make big progress.

One other thing: listen to your sensei and be disciplined enough to do what they say.  If they are any good, they will set randori guidelines to give you the experience you need.  They will have the big picture - the whole journey - in mind.  If they say go at 40%, go at 40%.  If they say go attack for attack with the uke putting up just token resistance, then don't muscle off tori.  Heck, if they say randori with your eyes closed, close your eyes and feel!

Good luck.  You are keen so you will go well.

DougNZ wrote:Everyone has said it well.

Keep upright so that your weight is over your base (feet).  That way you can react to uke by moving with your feet and/or lowering your structure and not have your posture twisted.  
Keep your head up.  There's an old saying: 'Where the head goes, the body follows.'  By looking down, you have broken your own posture for uke.
Keep some inwards tension in your armpits so that your arms stay attached to your body (!)  Relax your lower arms and use your hands as latches to attach uke to you.  Think 'tyrannosaurus arms'.  If uke pulls, allow your arm to extend without dragging you forward off-balance.
Keep uke coming towards you.  Do not charge him or chase him.  Bring him to your centre, even if you are stepping towards him or stepping away.  Use your latches and the tension in your armpits.

There are, of course, a multitude of other things but if you can keep your posture, be light on your feet, and think of your hands as latches to bring uke towards you, you will make big progress.

One other thing: listen to your sensei and be disciplined enough to do what they say.  If they are any good, they will set randori guidelines to give you the experience you need.  They will have the big picture - the whole journey - in mind.  If they say go at 40%, go at 40%.  If they say go attack for attack with the uke putting up just token resistance, then don't muscle off tori.  Heck, if they say randori with your eyes closed, close your eyes and feel!

Good luck.  You are keen so you will go well.

I'm on board with this advice for sure.

The deal is, students have to PRACTICE this stuff (as I know you are aware, Doug...I"m sure you actually train/drill your students in basics from what you write).

They have to be reminded, gently or otherwise to practice sound fundamentals. The old "200 uchikomi then randori" isn't good for students who have not already absorbed the basics.

So to the OP, PRACTICE this stuff. Use it to warm up, which is part of what I do. Use it when you are doing randori...just go out and work on your posture while the other guys yank and jerk you around the tatami.

Ben Reinhardt wrote:So to the OP, PRACTICE this stuff. Use it to warm up, which is part of what I do. Use it when you are doing randori...just go out and work on your posture while the other guys yank and jerk you around the tatami.

I would go one step further, Ben. To the OP, don't wait until training to practice this stuff; do it every minute of the day. Practice good posture when you walk, sit, lie and transition. Use good body mechanics to pull, push, lift, pivot and press. Stay well-balanced, light on your feet, flexible and adaptable.

Relax and make friends with your Judo partner. When you build up confidence then it will come easier.  Much of the practice of Judo, or any Martial art or sport, is to build up ones character, so one is at ease with one's self.  Judo is fun so treat it that way. I used to grab a white belt so to throw them around without much effort.  That did two things: 1) it satisfied my vanity and 2) they learned ukemi.  Actually, they learned how one controls another in randori.   

DougNZ wrote:

Ben Reinhardt wrote:So to the OP, PRACTICE this stuff. Use it to warm up, which is part of what I do. Use it when you are doing randori...just go out and work on your posture while the other guys yank and jerk you around the tatami.

I would go one step further, Ben.  To the OP, don't wait until training to practice this stuff; do it every minute of the day.  Practice good posture when you walk, sit, lie and transition.  Use good body mechanics to pull, push, lift, pivot and press.  Stay well-balanced, light on your feet, flexible and adaptable.

Yeah, I've mentioned that numerous times to my students as well. Not sure how well it stuck, though. The advice on conditioning outside of judo class seems to be sinking in though at least with those who compete...

Funny anecdote...My judo coach/sensei had a problem with keeping his head up, decades ago. Why ? We live(d) in an area with several types of poisonous snakes, he was a country boy who was working outside all the time on a farm. So the tendency is to walk around looking down and around for said snakes. Nothing like stepping on a rattler to make your day exciting.

He explained this to his sensei (eventually mine, too), who found it funny but no excuse. Eventually, through judicious application of negative feedback training, his looking down problem was cured, as was mine.

So now I tell my students (we have no poisonous snakes here, and only two species of snake at all) that story, and tell them they can't use it as an excuse for looking down at their feet all the time.

Funny!

I attended the Worlds in Argentina back in the day and the NZ team went up to Iguazu after the event. We were warned of snakes in the jungle but everyone just piled off the bus for the walk to the falls. Except the Kiwis. Who all took one step, looked around, took another step, looked around ...

Needless to say, there are no snakes in NZ (well other than politicians, loan sharks and used car dealers).

I think there's some very good advice in this thread.

Stacey mentioned about treating being thrown as a victory. As in, you made a positive attack and there's the win. Whether you throw or get thrown you're on the right track. Something like that.

The last week or two I've decided to take more chances with osoto gari and attempt more throws. In practise I love the throw, I feel I have good technique. Randoris another thing. Its very hard to successfully throw someone with this throw in my experience. The problem is mostly that a lot of the judoka are big dudes at my club and if you don't succede with osoto gari you are going to get slammed. So...I've had some success but mostly with the competition style hop than the sweeping style. My point is that when I got thrown the last week or two I actually felt ok because I had at least attempted the throw. I think if I continue with it I can make it my tokuiwaza or favourite technique. I am definitely reticent to try against the very strong judoka still. I'm not afraid to loseca fight in the club, that doesn't bother me. I find that like the OP I wait too long for the perfect opening and I'm always countering. From now on I'm going to try a more free flowing offensive strategy. Try one technique and try to go straight in to another if it fails.

Well last night was randori night again, so I tried using the advice I got on here and, I must say, it felt a lot better.
I was still quite defensive, but I think I was becoming more relaxed than before. Got thrown a couple of times and I also attacked more, not successfully, but still attacked none the less.
Something I forgot was to ask my partner to let me know when I get too stiff, but I'll do that next week.

Thanks again for all the replies. I'm going to do this!!

There was an exercise my sensei had us practice years ago, which I still use with my students. This might be helpful to you. Assign your randori partner the role of tori and you play uke. He attacks and you defend. However, you are only allowed to grip him with your thumb and index finger on both hands. This keeps you from relying on strength to defend. You are forced to defend by keeping your balance, practicing the principle of "ju" and moving with the momentum of the throw. You learn to stay on your feet without stiff-arming your opponent. Eventually change this exercise to include your using no hands to grip. You defend just using balance and ju. You may get thrown, but you'll be surprised how hard it is for tori to do so. Do this a few minutes each practice and you'll start to loosen up. Then go back to using regular grips and be mindful of keeping your arms relaxed and posture upright.

GregW wrote:There was an exercise my sensei had us practice years ago, which I still use with my students.  This might be helpful to you.  Assign your randori partner the role of tori and you play uke.  He attacks and you defend.  However, you are only allowed to grip him with your thumb and index finger on both hands.  This keeps you from relying on strength to defend.  You are forced to defend by keeping your balance, practicing the principle of "ju" and moving with the momentum of the throw.  You learn to stay on your feet without stiff-arming your opponent.  Eventually change this exercise to include your using no hands to grip.  You defend just using balance and ju.  You may get thrown, but you'll be surprised how hard it is for tori to do so.  Do this a few minutes each practice and you'll start to loosen up.  Then go back to using regular grips and be mindful of keeping your arms relaxed and posture upright.

Excellent advice.

I like 3-for-3; partner gets 3 throws without me countering by anything other than movement (no grip fighting, hip blocking, no counter throws); then I get 3 in return.

My opinions about randori:

Randori is not shiai: The target of randori is execute good own waza ( one my good throw of opponent is goal, no matter how many times I fail). Beginners should always try to attack an opponent, not to think about own defense. Excessive defense causes constant locking hands and it is difficult to attack from this state.This is not good for developing or progress.

Sempais should know this and not to oppose the entire randori consistently. Successful allow a beginner to throw at least one, if the beginner good proceed tsukuri. Sempais could use kaeshi waza for penalize very bad attempts of beginners attack. The goal is a common improvement of both - no rout or destroy of opponent in mind (never more the beginners).

Next target in randori is know how create the situations for own waza (tokuiwaza - favorite technique).
It is important to have a target during a training session and try to fulfill it. For example: I want to throw my opponent with own tokuiwaza.

For example, my goal is now (and will for a long time - it is my ideal ) techniques to improve my ashiwaza - when the opponent makes a move or step, so it was a his step into the void ... Very good Ashiwaza and two very good technics from ówaza (for example Sode tsurikomi goshi, Tai otoshi).

sydvicious wrote:This is what I understand of Randori:

1. Randori is free practice.
2. You have the opportunity to try and implement what you have learnt in a more competative way than uchikomi.
3. Therefore, it doesn't matter if you don't get it right and get thrown, it is not shiai!
4. If you try something and it doesn't work, you can have another go and try again.

But despite the fact that I know this, I still tense up in Randori and concentrate more on what my partner is doing than what I'm doing!
I definately don't have a fear of falling. I'm only 5th Kyu in Judo, but I also have 10 years of wrestling experience, so I really don't mind getting thrown. Maybe it is an ego thing in my subconscious mind, but I don't know...
The problem is that I don't want to make mistakes. I only attack if there is a clear opening, which obviously means that I get very few attacks in. I know it doesn't matter if I make a mistake, but I still do and I get extremely annoyed at myself!

I'm pretty sure everyone went through this, so I would really like to hear how you got over that.

Thanks

Sounds to me like you know the problem already !I'ts really hard to get over your ego. I think I am better at this when Im in a club where we know each other a bit better and we feel like we've got nothing to prove, then you can really start working with each other. Of course people always say "randori is not Shia" and its true, but its easy to say but not easy to put into practice in our barbarian culture
Throw for throw is useful but your not really resisting as the other is waiting their turn and you know what to expect so it has its limitations as well.
One exercise I really liked and is non competitive but at the same time aggressive is where you both have one minute to get as many attacks in and FAST. You are completely forbidden to worry for a second about being in thrown - if you are you have to get up immediately and keep attacking without blinking. Seemed to work especially if the teacher emphases the point of the exercise is to learn to attack without fear of making yourself vulnerable.

Gus wrote:

sydvicious wrote:This is what I understand of Randori:

1. Randori is free practice.
2. You have the opportunity to try and implement what you have learnt in a more competative way than uchikomi.
3. Therefore, it doesn't matter if you don't get it right and get thrown, it is not shiai!
4. If you try something and it doesn't work, you can have another go and try again.

But despite the fact that I know this, I still tense up in Randori and concentrate more on what my partner is doing than what I'm doing!
I definately don't have a fear of falling. I'm only 5th Kyu in Judo, but I also have 10 years of wrestling experience, so I really don't mind getting thrown. Maybe it is an ego thing in my subconscious mind, but I don't know...
The problem is that I don't want to make mistakes. I only attack if there is a clear opening, which obviously means that I get very few attacks in. I know it doesn't matter if I make a mistake, but I still do and I get extremely annoyed at myself!

I'm pretty sure everyone went through this, so I would really like to hear how you got over that.

Thanks

Sounds to me like you know the problem already !I'ts really hard to get over your ego. I think I am better at this when Im in a club where we know each other a bit better and we feel like we've got nothing to prove, then you can really start working with each other. Of course people always say "randori is not Shia" and its true, but its easy to say but not easy to put into practice in our barbarian culture
Throw for throw is useful but your not really resisting as the other is waiting their turn and you know what to expect so it has its limitations as well.
One exercise I really liked and is non competitive but at the same time aggressive is where you both have one minute to get as many attacks in and FAST. You are completely forbidden to worry for a second about being in thrown - if you are you have to get up immediately and keep attacking without blinking. Seemed to work especially if the teacher emphases the point of the exercise is to learn to attack without fear of making yourself vulnerable.

Syd, when I was a low kyu grade I would often throw this 1st kyu in randori. Every week I would try my best and every week down he would go. He would of course still throw me but I felt I was almost the equal of this 1st kyu.
Then it dawned on me that when he did randori he was trying out different grips and throws. He would often go left handed to improve himself on that side. He didn't care that in doing so he would occasionally get caught by a 5th kyu. Suffice to say that his Judo improved a lot quicker than mine did.

.

For me very nice descriptions about randori sense.

Text below is a text from article Judo in Japan: Training and Practice which Maintains the Interest of Adults
http://www.judo-voj.com/contents/reiho.html

In Japan, randori is not conceived as combat to the death. It is considered as free but complete practice which must necessarily be adapted to the wishes and the needs of the two players. The first randori of the day is usually flexible. Players change partners willingly: with strong opponents, they can utilize physical force and with light weight partners, they may try to develop agility. They can work with a 60 kg partner and then change to another weighing 140 kg. They may practice with a young player of 20 years, and then with a 70-year old sensei after that. This diversity of partners in each training enables each practitioner to learn a variety of techniques adapted to different types of competitions. For instance, one applies osotogari against a small opponent, seoi-nage against a big one, Ko-uchigari against a heavy opponent, harai-goshi against a light adversary. This diversity of technique enhances the interest in practice and maintains the motivation of adults. This also explains the high level of judo in Japan.

Instructors always explain about the concept of randori, the difference from competition, reminding their students of the necessity to do ukemi correctly even when they are tired, insisting that they should practice ‘quality judo’, applying beautiful technique, and experimenting without fear of being thrown, if they want to make progress. Too much of kumikata (grappling) with a lighter opponent is not considered good.

In summary, this free and non-constrained way of practice for adults is highly efficient. The volume (1,000 randoris in one year with two training periods per week) enables players of all ages to make progress. It is a method particularly suited for the experienced adult population who wish to harmonize their professional life with the pleasure of doing judo.

The informations from other people who practice(d) judo randori in Japan will be interesting about randori or content of keiko's for adults, may be for adults beginners.

I think that it will be just the little bit different in the dojo in universities, police stations, private dojo etc.

NBK, wdax, others, can you give us / me  your experience? Thank you a lot.

Here is a link to article with some experiences with randori in Japan - universities, camp...
MICHAEL HORLEY -- THE JAPANESE EXPERIENCE
http://www.kendaljudoclub.co.uk/club_people/michael_horley_japanese_experience

I found older thread about shiai and randori from this forum, there are some very interesting posts (from CK or Hanon). Thank you.
Randori & shiai
https://judo.forumotion.com/t333p15-randori-shiai

My new uke: