Judo Vitruvian Man - proper kuzushi direction

Ben Rheinhart wrote:
It sure can, however, being inside the "zone" doesn't mean "muscle" has to be used. Seoi Otoshi (to knees) can be initiated and successfully done without "muscling" inside the "too close" zone. So can Kosoto Gake, ashi barai, and others all in accordance with seiryoku zen'yo. In any case, I know your model isn't proposed to be all inclusive.
*******
Sorry, perhaps my point wasn't clear.

Tori can (must?) stand inside the red zone next to uke but performs kuzushi towards the green zone. For seoi whatever tori occupies the red zone in front of uke - how can he perform kuzushi in that direction? It's over and in front of his own body.

The green indicates the most effective area and distance towards which tori can throw uke.

BillC wrote:

NBK wrote:  

You have to start someplace - any better suggestions?  

.... My sensei used to say, don't over pull with your hands, set it up and use your hips, keep your posture....  some people like other explanations.

Nope, I do not ... and my sensei used to say much the same thing.  He'd say "pulling is over-rated."  In his mind "the push" is what really worked.  He'd do a powerful taiotoshi and never once pull.

I've said the exact same thing to my students. So it must be true !

BillC wrote:Neil ... I think it's been quite a while since you visited our dojo.  After Asma Sharif put Ross Mac Baisey through one window, and Ralph Lisle fell backwards through a couple more, Dr. Gary Haver decided to bring us in on a Saturday and cover the windows and walls with some gymnastics mats we had laying around taking up storage space.  Now throws into the wall according to the "ground rule" count for half the normal points ... largely on the back with control, speed and force into the wall is wazaari.  Still, one day someone is going to catch the termites not holding hands and someone is going to go out into the parking lot.

Having been thrown into a window before, followed by a hospital emergency room visit, I can appreciate the extra effort of covering them with mats. I used to teach in a location with a wall of mirrors on one side of the mats. We were very lucky to never break them.

BillC wrote:Out of a long list of obstacles that make judo worth pursing, two related mental errors in judo seem to inhibit understanding ... well maybe understanding is a loaded word ... too many words as discussed in another recent thread tend to inhibit feeling.  That's why more than occasionally one meets people in judo who are ... mentally uncomplicated ... who never the less perform beautiful and powerful judo.

At least one error in beginners, and you touch on this, beginners tend to focus on how their own body should be bent, twisted, turned, etc. without considering uke at all.  It's a mental error that people can struggle with their whole lives if their initial training reinforces this mistake.  I for one resemble that remark.

A second mental error ... with respect to all ... is to to focus on uke as an independent object.  As in "apply kuzushi here to move uke there."  The criticism of looking at uke as a block of stone as in NBK's attachments has been made many times on this forum (or the previous one from which it was cloned).  Sure, there is a principle there expressed in kata (especially the one that I am too dense and uneducated to appreciate).  The problem is, every judo technique involves the motion of two bodies ... two big squishy-floppy bags of water ... joined together ... including a mental component of force.  The physics of such a system are not currently calculable, and judo would be a whole lot less fun if they were.

Both points are excellent. The first obstacle in learning judo usually is to control your own body, the second lesson may be to learn to control the body of the opponent, next is to control your own mind, followed by learning to understand and control the mind of uke. These certainly overlap and run concurrently. As you point out, the physical training and mental training are both important and we have to correct bad habits in both.

Thinking that uke is independent of tori is a huge misconception, and may even be reinforced by the drawings that are the subject of this topic. I'd rather see a drawing that somehow incorporates both into the equation. Throws where uke is projected over tori (e.g. kata guruma) have a different landing area than ones where uke drops straight down (e.g. okuriashi harai). Judo involves a four legged monster, not separate 2 legged humans. Both parts are vying for control and the challenge is to be the dominant part in charge of the entire monster.

NBK wrote:Ben Rheinhart wrote:
It sure can, however, being inside the "zone" doesn't mean "muscle" has to be used. Seoi Otoshi (to knees) can be initiated and successfully done without "muscling" inside the "too close" zone. So can Kosoto Gake, ashi barai, and others all in accordance with seiryoku zen'yo. In any case, I know your model isn't proposed to be all inclusive.
*******
Sorry, perhaps my point wasn't clear.

Tori can (must?) stand inside the red zone next to uke but performs kuzushi towards the green zone. For seoi whatever tori occupies the red zone in front of uke - how can he perform kuzushi in that direction? It's over and in front of his own body.

The green indicates the most effective  area and distance towards which tori can throw uke.

Thanks for the clarification, I get it now, I think.

Think about jumping between uke legs for a low seoi nage/otoshi, or even kata guruma. Or maybe Uchi Mata I (think Nage No Kata).

I'm putting those in there for discussion, not to be argumentative.

Ben Reinhardt wrote:

BillC wrote:

NBK wrote:  

You have to start someplace - any better suggestions?  

.... My sensei used to say, don't over pull with your hands, set it up and use your hips, keep your posture....  some people like other explanations.

Nope, I do not ... and my sensei used to say much the same thing.  He'd say "pulling is over-rated."  In his mind "the push" is what really worked.  He'd do a powerful taiotoshi and never once pull.

I've said the exact same thing to my students. So it must be true !

Gentle Ben and Mr. Natural,

Could it be that we have drifted into ... or maybe actually started with ... a discussion of the direction towards which one focuses when throwing rather than a discussion of kuzushi?  I recall a "eureka moment" many years ago when visiting Edwin Takemori's club as an ikkyu ... he was able to help me encapsulate everything I was lacking in kouchigari into one word ... "down."  Sure, lot's of other stuff to do, and different ways to do it but that word uttered out loud at the climactic moment brings it all together into a throw that one can actually throw someone with.  Without it, one is just hacking at legs or sweeping into outer space someplace.

Then there is my sensei's "fat man taiotoshi" for throwing upper-torso-muscle-intensive opponents.  It's commonly taught in the Chicago area I think, and as that is where he spent formative judo time I wonder if that's the reason.

His technique, simplified here, does match well with NBK's diagram.

BillC wrote:

Ben Reinhardt wrote:

BillC wrote:

NBK wrote:  

You have to start someplace - any better suggestions?  

.... My sensei used to say, don't over pull with your hands, set it up and use your hips, keep your posture....  some people like other explanations.

Nope, I do not ... and my sensei used to say much the same thing.  He'd say "pulling is over-rated."  In his mind "the push" is what really worked.  He'd do a powerful taiotoshi and never once pull.

I've said the exact same thing to my students. So it must be true !

Gentle Ben and Mr. Natural,

Could it be that we have drifted into ... or maybe actually started with ... a discussion of the direction towards which one focuses when throwing rather than a discussion of kuzushi?  I recall a "eureka moment" many years ago when visiting Edwin Takemori's club as an ikkyu ... he was able to help me encapsulate everything I was lacking in kouchigari into one word ... "down."  Sure, lot's of other stuff to do, and different ways to do it but that word uttered out loud at the climactic moment brings it all together into a throw that one can actually throw someone with.  Without it, one is just hacking at legs or sweeping into outer space someplace.

Then there is my sensei's "fat man taiotoshi" for throwing upper-torso-muscle-intensive opponents.  It's commonly taught in the Chicago area I think, and as that is where he spent formative judo time I wonder if that's the reason.

His technique, simplified here, does match well with NBK's diagram.

Yes, I sensed moving into the "direction of throwing" as well. The two are linked, so go figure?

Down is good ! It is common in my experience teaching (and doing ) Kouchi Gari, Ouchi Gari, Ashi barai, etc., that the "down" cue is a very useful one. I will also say that the shortest distance between two locations is a straight line, and often that is straight down, or as much towards the tatami as possible given the circumstances.

I prefer to think of kuzushi as a relative thing...my posture/grip/movement/timing/position is superior to uke for a brief moment, there's your kuzushi for the most part. Uke cannot effectively resist what I am doing to him at that moment. If all goes well, in nage waza, it's ippon. Loss of control for one reason or another results in less than ippon, being countered/blocked etc. Being able to get to that moment depends on a lot. Which to me is less a matter of the lack of a conceptual or "scientific" model of kuzushi (which I guess I'm presenting...conceptual at least) than it is one of well functioning building blocks of fundamentals.

If that makes any sense whatsoever, LOL.

BillC wrote:

Ben Reinhardt wrote:

BillC wrote:

NBK wrote:  

You have to start someplace - any better suggestions?  

.... My sensei used to say, don't over pull with your hands, set it up and use your hips, keep your posture....  some people like other explanations.

Nope, I do not ... and my sensei used to say much the same thing.  He'd say "pulling is over-rated."  In his mind "the push" is what really worked.  He'd do a powerful taiotoshi and never once pull.

I've said the exact same thing to my students. So it must be true !

Gentle Ben and Mr. Natural,

Could it be that we have drifted into ... or maybe actually started with ... a discussion of the direction towards which one focuses when throwing rather than a discussion of kuzushi?  I recall a "eureka moment" many years ago when visiting Edwin Takemori's club as an ikkyu ... he was able to help me encapsulate everything I was lacking in kouchigari into one word ... "down."  Sure, lot's of other stuff to do, and different ways to do it but that word uttered out loud at the climactic moment brings it all together into a throw that one can actually throw someone with.  Without it, one is just hacking at legs or sweeping into outer space someplace.

Then there is my sensei's "fat man taiotoshi" for throwing upper-torso-muscle-intensive opponents.  It's commonly taught in the Chicago area I think, and as that is where he spent formative judo time I wonder if that's the reason.

His technique, simplified here, does match well with NBK's diagram.

I'm somewhat familiar with that methodology of Tai Otoshi.

It hurts like hell.

And is a great example of the diversity of "kuzushi".

BillC wrote:

Could it be that we have drifted into ... or maybe actually started with ... a discussion of the direction towards which one focuses when throwing rather than a discussion of kuzushi?  I recall a "eureka moment" many years ago when visiting Edwin Takemori's club as an ikkyu ... he was able to help me encapsulate everything I was lacking in kouchigari into one word ... "down."  Sure, lot's of other stuff to do, and different ways to do it but that word uttered out loud at the climactic moment brings it all together into a throw that one can actually throw someone with.  Without it, one is just hacking at legs or sweeping into outer space someplace.

Then there is my sensei's "fat man taiotoshi" for throwing upper-torso-muscle-intensive opponents.  It's commonly taught in the Chicago area I think, and as that is where he spent formative judo time I wonder if that's the reason.

His technique, simplified here, does match well with NBK's diagram.

Bill, your diagram serves to illustrate very well what we call 'tetrahedral throwing' in our ju-jitsu system.  In looking at the base of the tetrahedron, we say that we can make a triangle with uke's two feet and any one of ours.  It could be an equilateral triangle, right angle triangle or scalene triangle. We then say that the line from the centre of the triangle through the midpoint of any side of the triangle is the direction we should unbalance uke.  In your diagram, drawing a line from tori's left (support) foot to uke's right foot and taking a perpendicular line at the mid point puts the 'target' of the throw right on your sensei's black hole gateway to China.  We also say that the longer the side of the triangle, generally the more efficient the throw will be; you will note that the longest side of the triangle I described in your diagram yields a throw to the black star.  When I talked about 'tipping', Ben, it was to do with manipulating the apex of the tetrahedron (where uke and tori are joined) over one side of its base. I am finding it one of the most efficient and effective methods of putting uke on the ground.

DougNZ wrote:

BillC wrote:

Could it be that we have drifted into ... or maybe actually started with ... a discussion of the direction towards which one focuses when throwing rather than a discussion of kuzushi?  I recall a "eureka moment" many years ago when visiting Edwin Takemori's club as an ikkyu ... he was able to help me encapsulate everything I was lacking in kouchigari into one word ... "down."  Sure, lot's of other stuff to do, and different ways to do it but that word uttered out loud at the climactic moment brings it all together into a throw that one can actually throw someone with.  Without it, one is just hacking at legs or sweeping into outer space someplace.

Then there is my sensei's "fat man taiotoshi" for throwing upper-torso-muscle-intensive opponents.  It's commonly taught in the Chicago area I think, and as that is where he spent formative judo time I wonder if that's the reason.

His technique, simplified here, does match well with NBK's diagram.

Bill, your diagram serves to illustrate very well what we call 'tetrahedral throwing' in our ju-jitsu system.  In looking at the base of the tetrahedron, we say that we can make a triangle with uke's two feet and any one of ours.  It could be an equilateral triangle, right angle triangle or scalene triangle. We then say that the line from the centre of the triangle through the midpoint of any side of the triangle is the direction we should unbalance uke.  In your diagram, drawing a line from tori's left (support) foot to uke's right foot and taking a perpendicular line at the mid point puts the 'target' of the throw right on your sensei's black hole gateway to China.  We also say that the longer the side of the triangle, generally the more efficient the throw will be; you will note that the longest side of the triangle I described in your diagram yields a throw to the black star.  When I talked about 'tipping', Ben, it was to do with manipulating the apex of the tetrahedron (where uke and tori are joined) over one side of its base.  I am finding it one of the most efficient and effective methods of putting uke on the ground.

Combined with CK's point about rotational kuzushi, and heck, should be unstoppable ! Mass outside of base of support and all that.

Ben Reinhardt wrote:

DougNZ wrote:

BillC wrote:

Could it be that we have drifted into ... or maybe actually started with ... a discussion of the direction towards which one focuses when throwing rather than a discussion of kuzushi?  I recall a "eureka moment" many years ago when visiting Edwin Takemori's club as an ikkyu ... he was able to help me encapsulate everything I was lacking in kouchigari into one word ... "down."  Sure, lot's of other stuff to do, and different ways to do it but that word uttered out loud at the climactic moment brings it all together into a throw that one can actually throw someone with.  Without it, one is just hacking at legs or sweeping into outer space someplace.

Then there is my sensei's "fat man taiotoshi" for throwing upper-torso-muscle-intensive opponents.  It's commonly taught in the Chicago area I think, and as that is where he spent formative judo time I wonder if that's the reason.

His technique, simplified here, does match well with NBK's diagram.

Bill, your diagram serves to illustrate very well what we call 'tetrahedral throwing' in our ju-jitsu system.  In looking at the base of the tetrahedron, we say that we can make a triangle with uke's two feet and any one of ours.  It could be an equilateral triangle, right angle triangle or scalene triangle. We then say that the line from the centre of the triangle through the midpoint of any side of the triangle is the direction we should unbalance uke.  In your diagram, drawing a line from tori's left (support) foot to uke's right foot and taking a perpendicular line at the mid point puts the 'target' of the throw right on your sensei's black hole gateway to China.  We also say that the longer the side of the triangle, generally the more efficient the throw will be; you will note that the longest side of the triangle I described in your diagram yields a throw to the black star.  When I talked about 'tipping', Ben, it was to do with manipulating the apex of the tetrahedron (where uke and tori are joined) over one side of its base.  I am finding it one of the most efficient and effective methods of putting uke on the ground.

Combined with CK's point about rotational kuzushi, and heck, should be unstoppable ! Mass outside of base of support and all that.

Actually, very good observation!  Our tetrahedral unbalancing is, of course, not in isolation.  We also talk of moving at 90* to the force (in any direction).  Using Bill's diagram again, if uke is applying force forward of his red feet and tori moves at right angles to his right while opening his hips (the green feet), the right angle movement creates a circular kuzushi provided the tetrahedron is correctly formed (i.e. tori and uke are joined, e.g. uke is gripped).  As tori projects his waist along the line perpendicular to the long side of the triangle, uke is unbalanced to Bill's black star.

This is one of ju-jitsu and aikido's secrets: straight lines make circles!!??!!

DougNZ wrote:

Ben Reinhardt wrote:

DougNZ wrote:

BillC wrote:

Could it be that we have drifted into ... or maybe actually started with ... a discussion of the direction towards which one focuses when throwing rather than a discussion of kuzushi?  I recall a "eureka moment" many years ago when visiting Edwin Takemori's club as an ikkyu ... he was able to help me encapsulate everything I was lacking in kouchigari into one word ... "down."  Sure, lot's of other stuff to do, and different ways to do it but that word uttered out loud at the climactic moment brings it all together into a throw that one can actually throw someone with.  Without it, one is just hacking at legs or sweeping into outer space someplace.

Then there is my sensei's "fat man taiotoshi" for throwing upper-torso-muscle-intensive opponents.  It's commonly taught in the Chicago area I think, and as that is where he spent formative judo time I wonder if that's the reason.

His technique, simplified here, does match well with NBK's diagram.

Bill, your diagram serves to illustrate very well what we call 'tetrahedral throwing' in our ju-jitsu system.  In looking at the base of the tetrahedron, we say that we can make a triangle with uke's two feet and any one of ours.  It could be an equilateral triangle, right angle triangle or scalene triangle. We then say that the line from the centre of the triangle through the midpoint of any side of the triangle is the direction we should unbalance uke.  In your diagram, drawing a line from tori's left (support) foot to uke's right foot and taking a perpendicular line at the mid point puts the 'target' of the throw right on your sensei's black hole gateway to China.  We also say that the longer the side of the triangle, generally the more efficient the throw will be; you will note that the longest side of the triangle I described in your diagram yields a throw to the black star.  When I talked about 'tipping', Ben, it was to do with manipulating the apex of the tetrahedron (where uke and tori are joined) over one side of its base.  I am finding it one of the most efficient and effective methods of putting uke on the ground.

Combined with CK's point about rotational kuzushi, and heck, should be unstoppable ! Mass outside of base of support and all that.

Actually, very good observation!  Our tetrahedral unbalancing is, of course, not in isolation.  We also talk of moving at 90* to the force (in any direction).  Using Bill's diagram again, if uke is applying force forward of his red feet and tori moves at right angles to his right while opening his hips (the green feet), the right angle movement creates a circular kuzushi provided the tetrahedron is correctly formed (i.e. tori and uke are joined, e.g. uke is gripped).  As tori projects his waist along the line perpendicular to the long side of the triangle, uke is unbalanced to Bill's black star.

This is one of ju-jitsu and aikido's secrets: straight lines make circles!!??!!

If you think that's a secret, you should get out more ! Besides, aikido is ju jutsu, as is Kodokan Judo.

Ben Reinhardt wrote:
If you think that's a secret, you should get out more ! Besides, aikido is ju jutsu, as is Kodokan Judo.

Of course, but you will be surprised by how many people haven't had that pointed out or figured it out for themselves.

But you are right; I do need to get out more ...

DougNZ wrote:

Ben Reinhardt wrote:
If you think that's a secret, you should get out more ! Besides, aikido is ju jutsu, as is Kodokan Judo.

Of course, but you will be surprised by how many people haven't had that pointed out or figured it out for themselves.

But you are right; I do need to get out more ...

Believe me, I would NOT be surprised. Good luck getting out more...you guys have a favorite after-training pub ?

Ben Reinhardt wrote:
Believe me, I would NOT be surprised. Good luck getting out more...you guys have a favorite after-training pub ?

We are mostly family men so no frequent after-training pub. We do have dojo drinks every few weeks, though ... more for the social aspect and less to self-test kuzushi.

DougNZ wrote:

Ben Reinhardt wrote:
Believe me, I would NOT be surprised. Good luck getting out more...you guys have a favorite after-training pub ?

We are mostly family men so no frequent after-training pub.  We do have dojo drinks every few weeks, though ... more for the social aspect and less to self-test kuzushi.

Gotcha, I'm in same situation. I've had enough self-testing in that regard for the rest of my life !

ahem..... back to the point....

Billc raises a good question - are we drifting into 'where to throw' versus 'where to apply kuzushi'? Of course - it's inevitable, they are on a continuum. That continuum should be smooth, efficient, effective... Seiryoku zen'yo etc.....

Probably everyone has seen or experienced a poorly executed tai-otoshi - pulling / offbalancing forward but then the throw comes and tori shuts his own technique down by pulling down to soon. Uke either doesn't go or falls on tori's leg. Not good.

Bear in mind the distance is very close - within arms' reach from a static uke. Try it yourself - try offbalancing uke no farther than his extended _upper arm_ , and all you'll do is plant uke more firmly, reinforcing his balance rather than off-balancing him.

To JudoSensei's point:
"Thinking that uke is independent of tori is a huge misconception, and may even be reinforced by the drawings that are the subject of this topic. I'd rather see a drawing that somehow incorporates both into the equation. Throws where uke is projected over tori (e.g. kata guruma) have a different landing area than ones where uke drops straight down (e.g. okuriashi harai). ....."

Well, in a word, yes. I'll post some modified pix later, but the point is not primarily the landing area, the point is to define the direction of the initial kuzushi. Pull uke straight down and try to execute okuriashi harai with good sized uke with balance and see how far you get.

NBK

NBK wrote:
Well, in a word, yes.  I'll post some modified pix later, but the point is not primarily the landing area, the point is to define the direction of the initial kuzushi.  Pull uke straight down and try to execute okuriashi harai with good sized uke with balance and see how far you get.  

NBK

I guess I got confused about that distinction between direction of kuzushi and landing area. I thought the green zone was a landing area, maybe because the graphic is labelled as "Appropriate throwing distance." It doesn't mention kuzushi, but seems to be describing where uke lands.

NBK wrote:ahem.....  back to the point....  

Billc raises a good question - are we drifting into 'where to throw' versus 'where to apply kuzushi'?  Of course - it's inevitable, they are on a continuum.   That continuum should be smooth, efficient, effective... Seiryoku zen'yo etc.....

Probably everyone has seen or experienced a poorly executed tai-otoshi - pulling / offbalancing forward but then the throw comes and tori shuts his own technique down by pulling down to soon.  Uke either doesn't go or falls on tori's leg.  Not good.  

Bear in mind the distance is very close - within arms' reach from a static uke. Try it yourself - try offbalancing uke no farther than his extended _upper arm_ , and all you'll do is plant uke more firmly, reinforcing his balance rather than off-balancing him.  

To JudoSensei's point:
"Thinking that uke is independent of tori is a huge misconception, and may even be reinforced by the drawings that are the subject of this topic. I'd rather see a drawing that somehow incorporates both into the equation. Throws where uke is projected over tori (e.g. kata guruma) have a different landing area than ones where uke drops straight down (e.g. okuriashi harai). ....."

Well, in a word, yes.  I'll post some modified pix later, but the point is not primarily the landing area, the point is to define the direction of the initial kuzushi.  Pull uke straight down and try to execute okuriashi harai with good sized uke with balance and see how far you get.  

NBK

I'm going to have to tentatively disagree with the bolded statement. I'll have to get to training on Thursday night to make sure I'm not just imagining things.

Conceptually, I'll say that I understand your point in simple, static,  situation. Practically, I think it's possible to generate sufficient kuzushi at that distance to throw efficiently.

It may be a matter of semantics, in that I don't exactly understand what you mean by "off balancing uke no farther than his extended upper arm". I don't really conceptualize effective kuzushi in terms of distance.

Do you mean uke needs to be "tipped" more than the distance of his upper arm, let's say, straight to the front if uke is in shizenhontai?

I did some rough sketching, using the length of my upper arm, the end of which would project beyond my toes enough to "tip" me "off balance". I also looked at some proportionate  human figures and worked on them in a drawing program, and got the same result.

OK, here is some rough work. Measurements are approximate. Green is approximate length of figures upper arm. About 12 inches on a 6 foot tall person. My upper arm, at 5 ft 7 in of height, is about 10.25 inches using my handy dandy wooden ruler.

12 degrees of tip or so at the shoulder seems like sufficient to me. I think I could throw me with that much "kuzushi". I bet you could throw me, too !

No, I don't have time today to expand or correct my draft skecthcs but look at the original diagram - the point is that if you're applying kuzushi in a direction that intersects the mats closer than a vertical drop from an _extended directly horizontal arm's elbow_ you're probably too close.

Kind of like this - where the bands are anchored are just about below the guy's elbows - I don't think you can get much closer without anchoring uke more firmly (given that they they have reasonable balance to start).



Actually, now that I look again, you're '12.5d' intersects the mat at about a point vertical from an outstretched arm's elblow - I think you just agreed with me....

NBK wrote:No, I don't have time today to expand or correct my draft skecthcs but look at the original diagram - the point is that if you're applying kuzushi in a direction that intersects the mats closer than a vertical drop from an _extended directly horizontal arm's elbow_ you're probably too close.

Kind of like this - where the bands are anchored are just about below the guy's elbows - I don't think you can get much closer without anchoring uke more firmly (given that they they have reasonable balance to start).



Actually, now that I look again, you're '12.5d' intersects the mat at about a point vertical from an outstretched arm's elblow - I think you just agreed with me....

I don't disagree that tori can be too close. It's a common error I see all the time, especially in beginners, and is what the whole "triangle" thing is supposed help correct.

It fits because I picked one humerus length specifically, on a anatomically correctly proportioned model using grid paper... to get an idea of the profile view angle of "tipping" represented by that distance. Obviously, that's enough angle of tipping with no problem.

Closer will work and can be efficient is all I'm saying.

Ben Reinhardt wrote:

NBK wrote:ahem.....  back to the point....  

Billc raises a good question - are we drifting into 'where to throw' versus 'where to apply kuzushi'?  Of course - it's inevitable, they are on a continuum.   That continuum should be smooth, efficient, effective... Seiryoku zen'yo etc.....

Probably everyone has seen or experienced a poorly executed tai-otoshi - pulling / offbalancing forward but then the throw comes and tori shuts his own technique down by pulling down to soon.  Uke either doesn't go or falls on tori's leg.  Not good.  

Bear in mind the distance is very close - within arms' reach from a static uke. Try it yourself - try offbalancing uke no farther than his extended _upper arm_ , and all you'll do is plant uke more firmly, reinforcing his balance rather than off-balancing him.  

To JudoSensei's point:
"Thinking that uke is independent of tori is a huge misconception, and may even be reinforced by the drawings that are the subject of this topic. I'd rather see a drawing that somehow incorporates both into the equation. Throws where uke is projected over tori (e.g. kata guruma) have a different landing area than ones where uke drops straight down (e.g. okuriashi harai). ....."

Well, in a word, yes.  I'll post some modified pix later, but the point is not primarily the landing area, the point is to define the direction of the initial kuzushi.  Pull uke straight down and try to execute okuriashi harai with good sized uke with balance and see how far you get.  

NBK

I just noticed

I'm going to have to tentatively disagree with the bolded statement. I'll have to get to training on Thursday night to make sure I'm not just imagining things.

Conceptually, I'll say that I understand your point in simple, static,  situation. Practically, I think it's possible to generate sufficient kuzushi at that distance to throw efficiently.

It may be a matter of semantics, in that I don't exactly understand what you mean by "off balancing uke no farther than his extended upper arm". I don't really conceptualize effective kuzushi in terms of distance.

Do you mean uke needs to be "tipped" more than the distance of his upper arm, let's say, straight to the front if uke is in shizenhontai?

I did some rough sketching, using the length of my upper arm, the end of which would project beyond my toes enough to "tip" me "off balance". I also looked at some proportionate  human figures and worked on them in a drawing program, and got the same result.

OK, here is some rough work. Measurements are approximate. Green is approximate length of figures upper arm. About 12 inches on a 6 foot tall person. My upper arm,  at 5 ft 7 in of height, is about 10.25 inches using my handy dandy wooden ruler.

12 degrees of tip or so at the shoulder seems like sufficient to me. I think I could throw me with that much "kuzushi". I bet you could throw me, too !

I just noticed that the opposite of the triangle isn't labeled. It is 12 inches. The angle is tangent(theta)=6/27, so theta = arctan(6/27) .

Just tried this over a couple of weeks with beginner and intermediate students. Works almost without fail.

NBK wrote:Just tried this over a couple of weeks with beginner and intermediate students.  Works almost without fail.  

Video or it didn't happen ... I'll have my 41 megapixel yellow camera with phone on Saturday. You got some 'splainin to do.

NBK wrote:Hmm... already tried this without success. Something I'm doing wrong for the pix.

Anyhow, there is the proper direction (as seen parallel to the mats) for kuzushi, then there's the proper 3D direction.

I was taught it is generally about double the upper arm length of uke's upper arm - so seen from overhead, the correct distance is around that of uke's forearm, with a perpendicular drop down.

Judo Vitruvian Man - Overhead

Seen from the side, it looks somewhat like this:
Judo Vitruvian Man

With appropriate apologies to Leonardo - he was simply looking at proportions, I'm looking at equilibrium, kuzushi.

Comments welcome - this is a work in progress.

NBK

I don't understand the purpose of these diagrams.  They may be technically correct but do not help you understand what's going on.  It's like teaching kids math to do by memorizing a formula.

If I were to teach kuzushi I would teach Newtonian mechanics along with anatomy lessons.  Some simple examples would be that you don't throw from too far out because it's far from your center of mass and the leverage works against you.  You cannot throw too close because you don't leave space for uke's body, and an upright uke can use his center of mass against you.  Whereas a bent uke cannot.  You don't pull with your arms for kuzushi because it is weak compared to body movement.  But you do pull to lock uke onto your body, so you can use the body's rotational power.  You shouldn't attack a still opponent because it's too easy for him to adjust: force = mass * acceleration. Acceleration from stillness implies that the move will be slow at first, giving uke time to react.  Thus it's a lot easier to tip a target moving where you want (velocity being the summation of acceleration).  And thus you need to predict where uke goes, but to do that you need to provide inputs to the system to get information about how it reacts (by pushes and pulls, attacks, moving, etc.).  Otherwise you have no information and are unlikely to move fast enough to capitalize.

etc.

Ranma wrote:

I don't understand the purpose of these diagrams.  They may be technically correct but do not help you understand what's going on.  It's like teaching kids math to do by memorizing a formula.

If I were to teach kuzushi I would teach Newtonian mechanics along with anatomy lessons.  Some simple examples would be that you don't throw from too far out because it's far from your center of mass and the leverage works against you.  You cannot throw too close because you don't leave space for uke's body, and an upright uke can use his center of mass against you.  Whereas a bent uke cannot.  You don't pull with your arms for kuzushi because it is weak compared to body movement.  But you do pull to lock uke onto your body, so you can use the body's rotational power.  You shouldn't attack a still opponent because it's too easy for him to adjust: force = mass * acceleration.  Acceleration from stillness implies that the move will be slow at first, giving uke time to react.  Thus it's a lot easier to tip a target moving where you want (velocity being the summation of acceleration).  And thus you need to predict where uke goes, but to do that you need to provide inputs to the system to get information about how it reacts (by pushes and pulls, attacks, moving, etc.).  Otherwise you have no information and are unlikely to move fast enough to capitalize.

etc.

No offense Ranma ... but there are too many exceptions to your conclusions here ... you can cut an opponent straight down though his knees may complain ... some very good attacks work best on a still opponent ... pulling is over-rated ... at least that's my experience.  Kuzushi is not a specific thing tori does, it is not equivalent to pushing or pulling, it is the state or condition that tori seeks to create in uke.  Kuzushi is a noun if I am not mistaken.  

I like NBK's concept, and he told me where he got it, I just would not have labeled it a "kuzushi zone."  As we get into this excellent thread, I now know why.