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Judo network and forum


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Angelven
Neil G
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Hanon
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    Randori & shiai

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    Hanon


    Posts : 537
    Join date : 2012-12-31

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    Post by Hanon Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:05 am

    Neil G wrote:Our club almost has the opposite problem - sensei is adamant that randori be all about learning, never 100% effort more like 50-60%. This is fine as it is a recreational club but for the few people that like to compete it would be good to take it up a notch or three from time to time.

    This again is a sign of a dojo with an imbalance. All randori with zero shiai is also as poor as zero randori with all shiai.

    last year on my travels I encountered a judo club that only practiced kata, I jest not? Its absurd.

    Suggest to your sensei that toward the end of each lesson he or she arranges some shiai. One to one on the tatami while the rest of the club watch. then change and so on. This is very important.

    Mike
    Angelven
    Angelven


    Posts : 6
    Join date : 2013-02-01
    Age : 54
    Location : Stockholm, Sweden

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    Post by Angelven Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:14 am

    Hanon wrote:
    Suggest to your sensei that toward the end of each lesson he or she arranges some shiai. One to one on the tatami while the rest of the club watch. then change and so on. This is very important.

    Mike

    Our club is pure recreational - no competition. It's allowed of course, but you are on your own basically if you want to compete (Sensei has contacts in another club which is competing, so in actuallity, you would get some help)

    But, we do the shiai in the end of the lessons semi-regurlarly. King of the hill style, winner stays on the tatami. Everyone against everyone, no age/size restrictions - of course the adults go easy on the kids but as an adult you get all the challenger can give (Oh - in newaza, it's not that easy actually getting a 9-year old boy on his back and pinned, like small fish to catch, they are :-D ). King of the hill ensures that everyone gets a chance - after going 4-5 matches you are out of steam and get thrown :-D

    Hanon, thanks for a nice article and some really useful comments and insights. I'm gonna go to the next randori and practice again against that hopelessly big and strong yellow belt that I can't throw - Somehow I need to learn how to unbalance him - and if I can do that, no one else is going to be a problem :-D
    avatar
    Hanon


    Posts : 537
    Join date : 2012-12-31

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    Post by Hanon Wed Feb 06, 2013 8:41 am

    Angelven wrote:
    Hanon wrote:
    Suggest to your sensei that toward the end of each lesson he or she arranges some shiai. One to one on the tatami while the rest of the club watch. then change and so on. This is very important.

    Mike

    Our club is pure recreational - no competition. It's allowed of course, but you are on your own basically if you want to compete (Sensei has contacts in another club which is competing, so in actuallity, you would get some help)

    But, we do the shiai in the end of the lessons semi-regurlarly. King of the hill style, winner stays on the tatami. Everyone against everyone, no age/size restrictions - of course the adults go easy on the kids but as an adult you get all the challenger can give (Oh - in newaza, it's not that easy actually getting a 9-year old boy on his back and pinned, like small fish to catch, they are :-D ). King of the hill ensures that everyone gets a chance - after going 4-5 matches you are out of steam and get thrown :-D

    Hanon, thanks for a nice article and some really useful comments and insights. I'm gonna go to the next randori and practice again against that hopelessly big and strong yellow belt that I can't throw - Somehow I need to learn how to unbalance him - and if I can do that, no one else is going to be a problem :-D

    Hiya,
    last paragraph first. "I'm gonna go to the next randori and practice again against that hopelessly big and strong yellow belt that I can't throw - Somehow I need to learn how to unbalance him - and if I can do that, no one else is going to be a problem :-D" Don't do this. Take advantage of him breaking his own balance. It is not wise to try to break a partners balance it is wiser to take advantage of his own imbalance, EG, every time we walk its a process of losing ones balance and gaining it again. Try to slowly uchikomi de ashi braai then when you have got the idea of the kuzuhi and tsukuri start to add speed, then do this in nage komi, slow then add speed.
    Recreational judo can have bloomin hard serious shiai. Please understand that shiai is not championships. Shiai can and should be part of the curriculum in your own dojo, we then have inter club visits, sure its friendly but its shiai. You don't need to enter into every championship going, one or two a year is fine. Take all parts of judo and practice all of them, this is the only way to learn then master the complete judo. Not to mention its the way of training toward self mastery and that one is the hardest of all.
    In a shiai your heart beat should become rapid your legs feel like jelly and all your fears should be looking you in the face. This is where you forge your spirit. Doesn't have to be hours and hours per week but you do need some shiai, you do need to be taxed emotionally and physically, to taste that adrenaline and dry moth, to face up to your doubts and regardless of how sick you feel stand there and still fight.
    Let us know how you get on,
    Mike
    Angelven
    Angelven


    Posts : 6
    Join date : 2013-02-01
    Age : 54
    Location : Stockholm, Sweden

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    Post by Angelven Mon Feb 11, 2013 3:29 am

    Hanon wrote:

    Hiya,
    last paragraph first. "I'm gonna go to the next randori and practice again against that hopelessly big and strong yellow belt that I can't throw - Somehow I need to learn how to unbalance him - and if I can do that, no one else is going to be a problem :-D" Don't do this. Take advantage of him breaking his own balance. It is not wise to try to break a partners balance it is wiser to take advantage of his own imbalance, EG, every time we walk its a process of losing ones balance and gaining it again. Try to slowly uchikomi de ashi braai then when you have got the idea of the kuzuhi and tsukuri start to add speed, then do this in nage komi, slow then add speed.
    Recreational judo can have bloomin hard serious shiai. Please understand that shiai is not championships. Shiai can and should be part of the curriculum in your own dojo, we then have inter club visits, sure its friendly but its shiai. You don't need to enter into every championship going, one or two a year is fine. Take all parts of judo and practice all of them, this is the only way to learn then master the complete judo. Not to mention its the way of training toward self mastery and that one is the hardest of all.
    In a shiai your heart beat should become rapid your legs feel like jelly and all your fears should be looking you in the face. This is where you forge your spirit. Doesn't have to be hours and hours per week but you do need some shiai, you do need to be taxed emotionally and physically, to taste that adrenaline and dry moth, to face up to your doubts and regardless of how sick you feel stand there and still fight.
    Let us know how you get on,
    Mike

    What can I say ? Thanks for your insight again! You are right, recreational shiai can be a bit challenging since we are friends and no one wants to "loose" ;-)

    And you are of course right - I think I read it in some other thread somewhere - I need to get him to move and then ... (Oh - and not let him "catch" me, he's bloody strong and using it ;-) )
    avatar
    Raj Venugopal


    Posts : 120
    Join date : 2013-01-21

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    Post by Raj Venugopal Sat Feb 16, 2013 5:45 am

    In Fredericton Judo Club randori is done in many ways. Progression from technique to gripping to tachiwaza randori where sometimes it is winner stays out, other times it's round robin. Everyone fights everyone, and there is self regulation where some fights are near shiai level and others are give and take based on ability, injuries, age, weight.... Time ranges from 1 minute to 4-5 minutes, or sudden death. Lots of variety. In our two hour class randori can be as long as an hour and 15 minutes, but usually around 45 minutes. It is very exhausting, and Sensei will determine how the tachiwaza randori will take place based on who is there. When the serious competitors are there the randori is more intense. Newaza rules are always in effect, so there is strong orientation to continuation on the ground. Sometimes I throw up from the exertion. In newaza randori we go "sharkbait" where we move from fight to fight, other times it is by the clock. The play is continuous and very hard physically, but the fit players are in incredible condition. Randori is a hard and stressful part of our club, but we do produce a lot of very tough judoka- tough in body and in their head.
    avatar
    Raj Venugopal


    Posts : 120
    Join date : 2013-01-21

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    Post by Raj Venugopal Sat Feb 16, 2013 5:49 am

    PS- members are encouraged to compete year-round, so there is a strong correlation between class randori and shiai experience.
    avatar
    GregW


    Posts : 103
    Join date : 2013-01-22
    Location : Norman, Oklahoma

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    Post by GregW Sat Feb 16, 2013 1:26 pm

    Angelven wrote:Everyone against everyone, no age/size restrictions - of course the adults go easy on the kids but as an adult you get all the challenger can give (Oh - in newaza, it's not that easy actually getting a 9-year old boy on his back and pinned, like small fish to catch, they are :-D ). King of the hill ensures that everyone gets a chance - after going 4-5 matches you are out of steam and get thrown :-D

    Hanon, thanks for a nice article and some really useful comments and insights. I'm gonna go to the next randori and practice again against that hopelessly big and strong yellow belt that I can't throw - Somehow I need to learn how to unbalance him - and if I can do that, no one else is going to be a problem :-D

    I smiled when I read your comment that getting a 9-year old boy pinned is hard to do. My oldest son decided to start judo a few months ago. He's a new white belt--28 years old. He got paired up with 12-year old kid doing ground randori in his home club in Maryland, the kind where everyone starts on their knees. He got the kid off-balance and tried to go in for a kesa gatame and the kid kneed him in the side and he broke a few ribs. He has been off the mat healing for the past six weeks or so, but he's looking forward to going back. You gotta watch out for those kids. They're dangerous--all pointy knees and elbows!
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    neilm1990


    Posts : 1
    Join date : 2013-02-17

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    Post by neilm1990 Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:20 am

    Wow brilliant debate. The club I train at we do several "randori" I use the quotation marks because I'm not sure if it is the strict sense of the word. We will start off with throw for throw randori were everyone gets thrown there is no defensive play. We progress to light randori were we attempt to throw a person and if the throw is there Uke goes with the throw. Finally we have full randori. We have the problem when people come to the club they understand throw for throw but light randori for a lot of them seems to be an excuse to put people through the mat.
    DCS
    DCS


    Posts : 28
    Join date : 2013-02-07
    Age : 58
    Location : Spain

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    Post by DCS Sun Feb 17, 2013 7:55 am

    For me it is the players intent/mindset, not the intensity, what separates one from the other.
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    Hanon


    Posts : 537
    Join date : 2012-12-31

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    Post by Hanon Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:13 am

    DCS wrote:For me it is the players intent/mindset, not the intensity, what separates one from the other.

    That's certainly part of it.

    Mike
    Ricebale
    Ricebale


    Posts : 423
    Join date : 2013-01-01
    Location : Wollongong Australia

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    Post by Ricebale Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:23 am

    Hanon wrote:
    DCS wrote:For me it is the players intent/mindset, not the intensity, what separates one from the other.

    That's certainly part of it.

    Mike

    In Randori I throw and get thrown, try to use skill, if I have to muscle a throw or submission in Randori then I consider that a failure. In Randori if I can craft an opportunity for a less skilled person to throw me with technique I consider that a success.

    in Shiai I refuse to concede and I seek the finish.

    I don't think I fully comprehend the full purpose of both but I'm getting there.
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    Hanon


    Posts : 537
    Join date : 2012-12-31

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    Post by Hanon Sun Feb 17, 2013 8:59 am

    Ricebale wrote:
    Hanon wrote:
    DCS wrote:For me it is the players intent/mindset, not the intensity, what separates one from the other.

    That's certainly part of it.

    Mike

    In Randori I throw and get thrown, try to use skill, if I have to muscle a throw or submission in Randori then I consider that a failure. In Randori if I can craft an opportunity for a less skilled person to throw me with technique I consider that a success.

    in Shiai I refuse to concede and I seek the finish.

    I don't think I fully comprehend the full purpose of both but I'm getting there.

    You are indeed.

    Kind regards,

    Mike

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