Are chokes/strangles too dangerous? A catch wrestling coach thinks so. What do Judo people think?

Eddie Goldman of the No Hold Barred podcast interviews John Strickland of the Billy Wicks foundation on chokes and, strangles. There is a debate in the nascent catch community about the use of such holds. Strickland errs on the side of caution and, would not allow the choke in his events.

Eddie Goldman would also be interested in scientific information from Judo epople who can link to articles from the Judo community. He points out that wrestling has the 2nd highest rate of concussions in sports. You can reach him on facebook.

http://nhbnews.podomatic.com/entry/2014-05-10T23_04_15-07_00

Mr_Michael_or_Mike wrote:Eddie Goldman of the No Hold Barred podcast interviews John Strickland of the Billy Wicks foundation on chokes and, strangles. There is a debate in the nascent catch community about the use of such holds. Strickland errs on the side of caution and, would not allow the choke in his events.

Eddie Goldman would also be interested in scientific information from Judo epople who can link to articles from the Judo community. He points out that wrestling has the 2nd highest rate of concussions in sports. You can reach him on facebook.

http://nhbnews.podomatic.com/entry/2014-05-10T23_04_15-07_00

I can't  tell you what other people 'think' since I cannot read other people's mind. However, I did exactly what you are asking, and did so on two occasions on the old forum, commenting supported by the existing scientific findings.

So I guess it is for someone to attempt to locate those threads and link them or eventually repost those findings here (with my permission).

Thanks. Now if I could only figure out how to navigate the old forum. I did find there articles on judoinfo. Both are by by E. K. Koiwai, M.D.


http://judoinfo.com/chokes2.htm

http://judoinfo.com/chokes6.htm

A research associate provided the below:

"Deaths allegedly caused by the use of "choke holds" (shime-waza).
Koiwai EK.
Abstract

Shime-waza or the "choke hold", when properly applied, should not cause death; therefore, its primary purpose should be to subdue violent suspects. When properly applied, the choke hold causes unconsciousness in 10 to 20 s. No fatalities as a result of shime-waza have been reported in the sport of judo since its inception in 1882. Among the methods of "control holds" taught to law enforcement officers is the choke hold similar or identical to shime-waza used in judo. Using the choke hold, officers may afford themselves maximum safety while subjecting the suspect to a minim

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3572335

Carotid holds can change into more dangerous respiratory chokes.

[/url]http://www.interpol.int/Media/Files/INTERPOL-Expertise/IGLC/Calgary-Police-Service-Neck-Restraint-Literature-Review-Technical-Report-Canadian-Police-Research-Centre

Tons more on the 'net.

NBK

NBK wrote:A research associate provided the below:

"Deaths allegedly caused by the use of "choke holds" (shime-waza).
Koiwai EK.
NBK

As I explained at the time, the 2 papers by Koiwai are cited a lot in this context, but it is also a unofrtunate as the stuff is very misleading because what he looked at weren't at all actual judo shime-waza but all sorts of movements that included neckcranks in several cases even using a police baton. As such, the information is almost irrelevant for judo chokes, as the lever forces and use of a hard object produces all sorts of additional injuries. So it is, for example, also no surprise that one finds fractures of the hyoid bone, etc. In some of his cases the victim is also held down by multiple people.

I was the guest-editor-in-chief in 1992 to produce a volume on judo injuries and myself and Koiwai corresponded about him producing a paper with actual relevant cases but it never transpired. The USJI Medical Committee of which he was the Chair then invited me several times to their meetings but they had the annoying tendency of faxing me an invitation about 2 days before the meeting took place, which given the fact that I was based in Europe at the time, was completely unrealistic. Nevertheless, they did not seem to understand that. There wasn't Internet and cheap travel agencies in those days and having to buy an intercontinental plane ticket just 2 days before the trip cost a small fortune, which would have to come out of my own pocket. Organizing an international trip just 2 days before leaving wasn't common either. There was not Google Earth, nor easy ways to figure out what close hotels were, which airport to fly into, and even international phone calls cost a ton of money then. Maybe the difference was that given that Koiwai owned his own horse racing stables and was working for one of the top-paying US universities, in addition to his private practice, we were in different social layers apparently where things that might be realistic for him were totally unrealistic for me and for most ordinary people. To put it simple, I was the one who wasn't the millionaire, which he did not seem to get.