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    Draeger relevancy today

    Allen
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    Post by Allen on Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:01 am

    So,

    We are starting a more serious study of Nage no Kata at our dojo. I know when the Draeger book came out, it was progressive and different in many ways from the kata that many had been practicing. Now, it is someone outdated/outmoded and the kata has evolved past the book.

    What I love about the book is it is exhaustive in its detail. I don't have access to any other resource that even comes close (living or paper).

    How 'wrong' is it to practice the Draeger version of this kata, today? For example, it clearly describes that the four Uke strikes are different but today the prevailing teaching seems to be four identical Uke strikes. We don't intent to compete kata, so as a reference manual would this not be a good book for us to pursue?

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    wdax

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    Post by wdax on Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:19 am

    The book of Otaki/Draeger ist still one of the best - if not the best - written source about nage- and katame-no-kata in a western language. There is nothing wrong with it.

    No book can substitute a good teacher....
    Cichorei Kano
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    Post by Cichorei Kano on Fri Jun 20, 2014 9:32 am

    wdax wrote:The book of Otaki/Draeger ist still one of the best - if not the best - written source about nage- and katame-no-kata in a western language. There is nothing wrong with it.

    No book can substitute a good teacher....

    +1 !


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    Allen
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    Post by Allen on Tue Jun 24, 2014 5:35 am

    Well, what I have is the book.
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    tafftaz

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    Post by tafftaz on Wed Jun 25, 2014 6:58 am

    Allen wrote:So,

    We are starting a more serious study of Nage no Kata at our dojo.  I know when the Draeger book came out, it was progressive and different in many ways from the kata that many had been practicing.  Now, it is someone outdated/outmoded and the kata has evolved past the book.

    What I love about the book is it is exhaustive in its detail.  I don't have access to any other resource that even comes close (living or paper).

    How 'wrong' is it to practice the Draeger version of this kata, today?  For example, it clearly describes that the four Uke strikes are different but today the prevailing teaching seems to be four identical Uke strikes.  We don't intent to compete kata, so as a reference manual would this not be a good book for us to pursue?



    I find it very strange that you say it is outdated. Surely you still practise many of the techniques the are at the very core of judo? Are these outdated as well?
    I might not be the greatest exponent of the few kata that I know, but the Otaki/ Draeger book is the main staple of some of the sensei who have taught me the NNK over the years, these include. a couple of medallists at the Kata world champs. I reference it frequently when practising the NNK.
    If I was only allowed to have 3 judo manuals then this would be one of them, along with the canon of judo and kodokan judo.
    noboru
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    Draeger relevancy today Empty PUSH-PULL motions in Draeger explanation of Nage no kata

    Post by noboru on Wed Apr 15, 2015 10:16 pm

    I'm sorry, can I ask you about some points in Nage no kata?

    I don't have a judo kata teacher and I try to study it from different sources...

    Draeger and Otaki in their book (Judo Formal Techniques: A Complete Guide to Kodokan Randori no Kata) writes about PUSH-PULL motions in some parts of kata (UKE PUSHes and TORI PULLs) for example during Ukiotoshi, Kataguruma. For them are PUSH-PULL motions one from important essence of this kata.

    In short:
    Uke grasps Tori and Uke starts PUSHing Tori, Tori grasps Uke and his reaction of unbalancing is step back, Uke is unbalancing by Tori's step back and makes step forward and PUSHes Tori again, Tori's unbalancing reaction is step back again (second step back). Uke is unbalancing again and makes step forward and PUSHes Tori again. Tori's reactions is PULLING and making UkiOtoshi.

    UKE PUSHES during 3 forward steps AND TORI PULLS only in 3. step before Uki otoshi.

    In Kodokan Nage no kata textbook is not described this PUSHing motions from UKE. There is described other scenario : Uke grasps Tori, Tori grasps Uke and Tori starts PULLING of Uke...

    For example text from current Kodokan Nage no kata textbook
    Kodokan Text book wrote:"1. Uki-otoshi
    Tori and Uke step forward each other to a distance of about 60cm (about 2 shaku ) (Photo 1).
    Movement 1: While stepping forward with his right foot, Uke attempts to grasp Tori in Migi-shizen-tai . Tori seizes this opportunity, grasps Uke in Migishizen-tai and pulls Uke to attempt to break the balance forward while taking one step backward by Tsugi-ashi from his left foot. Responding to Tori ’s pull, Uke takes one step forward by Tsugi-ashi from his right foot so as to try to protect his stability (Photo 2).
    Movement 2: Tori again takes one step backward by Tsugi-ashi from his left foot and pulls Uke to attempt to break the balance forward. Responding to Tori ’s pull, Uke takes one step forward by Tsugi-ashi from his right foot so as to try to protect his stability (Photo 3).
    Movement 3: Tori once again pulls Uke forward in the same manner as before, suddenly takes one wide stride backward with his left foot while raising the toe and breaking Uke ’s balance forward when Uke moves the right foot forward responding to Tori ’s pull (Photo 4). Tori kneels down with his left kneecap around the left side of a extension line behind his right foot
    (an angle of the left leg and the straight line behind the right foot is about 30° to 45° ) (Photos 5- ①②③ ) and throws Uke forward by pulling both of his hands down strongly in one quick motion (Photos 6- ①② , 7,Cool."
    ----------------
    In my limitary understanding is that the older way (Otaki, Draeger) is more purposeful for me.
    It was standart in older time?
    What were the reasons for modern explanation / changes?

    Thank you for any comments
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    Post by wdax on Wed Apr 15, 2015 11:31 pm

    Please read from p. 74 the chapter "attack and defense theory".

    The description of the starting action of techniques like Uki-otoshi is indeed somehow tricky, but clear.

    The point is: Uke moves forward and Tori uses Uke´s momentum to pull him off-balance.

    What Otaki/Draeger describe is a set of three steps in which Uke is attacker twice and Tori only responds to these steps and Tori taking over during the last step.

    The official Kodokan teaching is, that Uke intends to move forward by a half step (changing his posture to migi-shizentai) and Tori taking over and forcing Uke to make a full step and then step by step braking balance a little bit more.

    In both cases Uke´s forward momentum is used to unbalance him.

    In fact: if Tori and Uke stand in close distance, moving forward to apply migi-shizentai can be recognized as a "push", but of course it is not "attacking by a push".
    noboru
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    Post by noboru on Thu Apr 16, 2015 4:31 pm

    Thank you wdax.

    wdax wrote:The point is: Uke moves forward and Tori uses Uke´s momentum to pull him off-balance.
    ...
    In both cases Uke´s forward momentum is used to unbalance him.
    In fact: if Tori and Uke stand in close distance, moving forward to apply migi-shizentai can be recognized as a "push", but of course it is not "attacking by a push".

    I read the text again yesterday and your quote about point gave me more understanding.
    Jacob3
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    Post by Jacob3 on Thu Apr 16, 2015 5:19 pm

    Since you do not have a teacher, I assume you are not aiming for going to attend competitions but that you are just trying to learn the basics, I feel free to comment. I have some experience with quite different styles and descriptions of NNK. Those vary from very empty merry walkarounds in dance-style, to semi battling styles. By now those have blended into something that seems quite usefull.
    While reading this, please bear in mind that this is not written by any authority in any field, but just someone who speaks out of personal experience.
    When I am teaching people who are relatively unexperienced in NNK, these starting movements are the first issues I try to explain in detail. Otherwise you will see people practicing some empty stepping pattern without understanding what they are in fact doing. This has happend here in the past, and because of that, many people here were convinced that this empty show was the one and only Kodokan style.

    So what do I explain them:
    Uke takes a step forward and takes hold of tori. The first thing I show them, that when tori does not respond, he WILL be pushed back. Not because uke gives him a vigorous push with his arm, but because of his decisive forward movement with a decisive grab with some fixation in his arms ( the ‘push’ from Otaki and Dreager ). So this should really be regarded as an action from uke and not just an empty step.
    Tori however immediately steps back and grabs hold aswel, in the same way. Decisive!
    The idea now, is that uke should be surprised by the sudden absence of resistance, since tori is not there anymore where he expected him to be. Therefor he is slightly out of balance. Now he has two choises to regain his balance.
    Moving his upper body backward a bit, but this is prohibited by the hold of tori ( the first ‘pull’ from Kodokan description ).
    Or stepping forward again, which he does.
    This second step is again decisive and has a little more action in it then the first one, since there is more energy involved. He does not step completely willingly but he is forced a little to do so. And he is again trying to use his momentum to push tori backwards.
    Tori again steps back, creating the exact same situation but now he does pull a little actively to take uke out of balance again and preparing for the throw.
    Now for the third step, uke has to take a slightly bigger step and therefore creates a bigger push against tori, because he is now seriously out of balance. Tori at the same time takes a seriously bigger step and uses his bodyweight and his backward/downward armmovement.

    I think that the above complies with what both Otaki/Dreager and Kodokan mean to explain, aswell as what Wdax sensei is describing.
    When you practice it this way, you get an active version, without exaggerating.

    Hopefully this helps a bit.
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    Post by wdax on Thu Apr 16, 2015 5:33 pm

    noboru wrote:Thank you wdax.

    wdax wrote:The point is: Uke moves forward and Tori uses Uke´s momentum to pull him off-balance.
    ...
    In both cases Uke´s forward momentum is used to unbalance him.
    In fact: if Tori and Uke stand in close distance, moving forward to apply migi-shizentai can be recognized as a "push", but of course it is not "attacking by a push".

    I read the text again yesterday and your quote about point gave me more understanding.

    I practiced (and taught) this action exactly how Draeger described it for about 25 years. It was not only me, but in the whole country it was done like this.

    Then I helped Dieter Born to translate the Nage-waza book of Daigo-sensei. When he sent me the draft of the translation - which was in line with the Kodokan booklet - i replied, that the description is "wrong" and should be corrected. But it was the beginning of some doubts that came up.... So I checked all other sources I had, but none of them supported Drager´s opinion.

    A few month later Komata-sensei came to Germany to teach Nage-no-Kata and asked me to serve as his Uke. I step forward with a full step and leaving no chance for him to pull in the first step. He could only retreat. Of course he corrected me. I should move forward into migi-shizentai, he must react to keep the distance constant, uses this movement to make a bigger - a full - step, pulls me and forces me to also make a full step as a reaction to his pulling action. So this little step is:
    - action (Uke moves forward by half step into migi-shizentai)
    - reaction (Tori uses this opportunity to pull Uke further forward then Uke wanted in order to break his balance)
    - reaction (defence by Uke, who follows Toris pulling action and preserves his balance.

    This sequence brings both in motion with Tori continuing his attempt to break balance with a step of "normal" lenght(!) and Uke following Tori. During the third step Tori suddenly changes the lenght of his step, takes Uke by surprise and succeds in unbalancing him.

    (1) Here are some slight variations between the 6 techniques

    • Uki-otoshi: Tori second step is a little bit longer then the first so kuzushi starts in the second step and is gradually
    • Kata-guruma: can be done like Uki-otoshi, but is not really required
    • Harai-goshi: If Tori would make a longer 2nd step to increase the distance , he would have problems to put his right hand on Uke´s shoulder blade. So we have a different kind of kuzushi: kuzushi is not created by increasing the distance between the bodies, but by pulling the upper body of Uke closer to Tori to bring Uke off-balance to his front
    • Tsuri-komi-goshi: Uke succeds in preserving his balance. Kuzushi starts after a feint of a "high" hip-throw
    • Sasae-tsuri-komi-ashi: Tori´s 2nd step with the left foot is of "normal" lenght, kuzushi comes from increasing the distance by changing the pattern of the steps. Tori does not complete the 2nd tsugi-ashi, but stepping with his right foot suddenly behind his left foot and creates more space to generate kuzushi.
    • Yoko-gake: Kuzushi is not generated by increasing the distance of the feet, but by sutemi.


    In todays demonstrations - even on top-level - the action/reaction/reaction is not always clearly done. Very often it is only a step with gripping, initiated by Uke, but a "friendly" walk. Also we very often see pauses between the 1st and the 2nd step, what should not be done.

    The basic idea, which has to be studied, is how Tori is making the most effective use of Uke forward momentum to generate kuzushi with an Uke, who is active until very last moment.

    If you carefully read Dreager, then you find out, that he does not contradict these points. But many times he is IMHO understood to dogmatic.
    noboru
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    Post by noboru on Fri Apr 17, 2015 8:41 am

    Jacob3, thank you and wdax thank you a lot again. It helps me a lot. I can understand more nuances in kuzushi in wazas in Nage no kata from wdax description.

    It is proof, that find and found the good teacher is necessary or hear instructions and explanations at least.
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    Post by Jacob3 on Fri Apr 17, 2015 4:19 pm

    Interesting Wdax. I have never ever heard this version before, which puzzles me, since I attended many classes from people who regularly attend summer course at the Kodokan. Their descriptions vary from 'just taking two steps together' to what I have described above.

    And also classes from people like Yamamoto and Komata, there was no attention to these starting steps. We all did it how we thought it was right, and were not corrected. It was not asked either, but I would assume that it is an issue to do this correctly. Or is there not much empasis on it in modern day practice anymore?

    In fact, I have always understood that most of the techniques in NNK were go no sen based. But in your description, they would be more sen no sen.
    Next time I meet some people with any authority here ( which will probably be in Amsterdam ), I will ask them. I am sure that what you describe is correct, but I just wonder why there is no emphasis on this.

    It is interesting though. I going to try this tomorrow!

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    Post by wdax on Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:06 pm

    Jacob3 wrote:(...)And also classes from people like Yamamoto and Komata, there was no attention to these starting steps. We all did it how we thought it was right, and were not corrected. It was not asked either, but I would assume that it is an issue to do this correctly. Or is there not much empasis on it in modern day practice anymore?(...)
    Next time I meet some people with any authority here ( which will probably be in Amsterdam ), I will ask them. I am sure that what you describe is correct, but I just wonder why there is no emphasis on this.
    (...)
    If there is a one-day course with 5 hours about Nage-no-Kata, then it is all together 300 minutes and 20 minutes left for each single technique.

    How many details can be explained and how much can people practice in 20 minutes? Time pressure becomes even harder, when explanations have to be translated... There is simply no emphasis on this point in typical courses, because other points are more important. Yamamoto rarely explains any details and Komata always focusses on one or two main points. It has nothing to do with "modern practice" or "loss of knowledge". Another point is, that none of the japanese sensei knows about the different theories in Europe. Very likely none of them has ever read Draeger and none of them attends classes by europeans.

    BTW it´s very useful to practice these patterns in different nuances, because this helps to learn how to adopt your techniques to different situations.

    Maybe in Amsterdam I can show it to you on the tatami.
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    Post by BillC on Sat Apr 18, 2015 3:50 am

    wdax wrote:
    If there is a one-day course with 5 hours about Nage-no-Kata, then it is all together 300 minutes and 20 minutes left for each single technique.

    Nope, in my experience it's a half hour of warming up ... then a half hour of someone talking while everyone cools down and starts shivering in their wet judogi ... then 20 minutes of ukiotoshi which no one understands ... then two hours on seoinage nitpicked to death with more talking, pontification and comments about the exact angle at which uke's left pinky should be held 42 microseconds after the second push ... then 5 minutes on everything else because someone says "excuse me sensei but we are running out of time if we are to finish" ... and yes ending 5 minutes early because half the class left early to beat the traffic back up to LA. Rolling Eyes

    My sensei used to say with more than 50% seriousness that courses should be taught starting with the sutemiwaza because most courses never made it that far, or that they covered those most difficult moves hardly at all.


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    Jacob3
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    Post by Jacob3 on Sun Apr 19, 2015 2:34 am

    wdax wrote:
    Jacob3 wrote:(...)And also classes from people like Yamamoto and Komata, there was no attention to these starting steps. We all did it how we thought it was right, and were not corrected. It was not asked either, but I would assume that it is an issue to do this correctly. Or is there not much empasis on it in modern day practice anymore?(...)
    Next time I meet some people with any authority here ( which will probably be in Amsterdam ), I will ask them. I am sure that what you describe is correct, but I just wonder why there is no emphasis on this.
    (...)
    If there is a one-day course with 5 hours about Nage-no-Kata, then it is all together 300 minutes and 20 minutes left for each single technique.

    How many details can be explained and how much can people practice in 20 minutes? Time pressure becomes even harder, when explanations have to be translated... There is simply no emphasis on this point in typical courses, because other points are more important. Yamamoto rarely explains any details and Komata always focusses on one or two main points. It has nothing to do with "modern practice" or "loss of knowledge". Another point is, that none of the japanese sensei knows about the different theories in Europe. Very likely none of them has ever read Draeger and none of them attends classes by europeans.

    BTW it´s very useful to practice these patterns in different nuances, because this helps to learn how to adopt your techniques to different situations.

    Maybe in Amsterdam I can show it to you on the tatami.

    Indeed, these 'basics' are never discussed in seminars for "advanced" people, since the teachers can expect that everyone attending them already know these details. But I would assume that by now, the same situation as you have experienced yourself, should have occurred. Someone should have noticed that what 'we' do is not correct ( at least no standard ).
    But still, never to late to learn. I tried it today, and it is a very unfamiliar way for me, but I am sure that after some practice it will work just fine. The principles slightly change, but that is just very usefull.

    I must say though, that I have a different experience with Yamamoto ( although only one untill now ). The seminar I followed was fúll of details. So many, that my head was overflowed ( but that might also have been caused by his Japanese/Italian/German/French/English mixed up language Laughing ). But what are still details for me, might be general issues for you ofcourse.

    I am looking forward to meeting you in Amsterdam. It is too bad that they put the Kodokan Goshin Jutsu and Koshiki no kata both on friday. Since we are at this moment focussing on KGJ, I cannot attend your KNK class. I will be at your Ju no kata class though. We will see if there is time for other things. I have heard that many will require your attention Very Happy


    Last edited by Jacob3 on Sun Apr 19, 2015 6:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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    Post by Jacob3 on Sun Apr 19, 2015 2:42 am

    BillC wrote:
    wdax wrote:
    If there is a one-day course with 5 hours about Nage-no-Kata, then it is all together 300 minutes and 20 minutes left for each single technique.

    Nope, in my experience it's a half hour of warming up ... then a half hour of someone talking while everyone cools down and starts shivering in their wet judogi ... then 20 minutes of ukiotoshi which no one understands ... then two hours on seoinage nitpicked to death with more talking, pontification and comments about the exact angle at which uke's left pinky should be held 42 microseconds after the second push ... then 5 minutes on everything else because someone says "excuse me sensei but we are running out of time if we are to finish" ... and yes ending 5 minutes early because half the class left early to beat the traffic back up to LA. Rolling Eyes

    My sensei used to say with more than 50% seriousness that courses should be taught starting with the sutemiwaza because most courses never made it that far, or that they covered those most difficult moves hardly at all.

    Well, if people were nitpicking on details about the second push at seoi nage, then you should not bother to attend such a course at all Laughing
    But you are right, very recognisable. Luckily over here one will know over time where to go and where nót to go. Choice enough.
    And by now it is so common to start halfway of most kata, that one starts to loose focus on the first techniques...
    But it is hard to satisfy everyone. I for one have no problems in extra talking/explaining, if it is useful. But others start complaining when there is more then one minute of talk before they can continue.


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