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    Kata-guruma (in the NNK)

    Jihef
    Jihef

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    Post by Jihef on Tue Nov 25, 2014 7:49 pm

    Jacob3 wrote:So when I take a class, and anyone is trying to teach me a different way then what I am used to, I try to figure out the usefullness of that version. I do not see kata throws as directly usefull throws in randori or shiai, but versions that at first try to emphasise the details of the principles BEHIND the throw. And that can be a totally different concept. If I find that usefullness, I have no problem to perform it like that. However, if I dont, I wont Laughing
    For example, I have not yet figured out the use in kata guruma to hold uke up for a few seconds, before throwing him. I teach my students to do so however, because examiners simply want to see it that way. But at the same time I explain them that there is no use for doing that, except for safety reasons for starting practitioners. I myself never hold uke up, but immediately throw him. And so far, no one has ever told me that what I do is wrong / not Kodokan. And there are some other examples aswell.
    That one is a favorite of mine.  Very Happy

    One of the answers I got was, that the "pause" gives time to uke to position himself properly (brace himself ?) before the fall.

    Then, we can also talk about Tama-guruma…


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    Davaro
    Davaro

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    Post by Davaro on Tue Nov 25, 2014 8:52 pm

    Good question...

    In "todays" competition standard of NNK, is there supposed to be a pause?

    I have seen different ways but what is the correct way according to what is checked these days?


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    wdax

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    Post by wdax on Tue Nov 25, 2014 9:33 pm

    Davaro wrote:Good question...

    In "todays" competition standard of NNK, is there supposed to be a pause?

    I have seen different ways but what is the correct way according to what is checked these days?

    No.... it´s not!
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    Nozomi

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    Post by Nozomi on Thu Nov 27, 2014 11:15 am

    Answer is no and yes. In today's standard of NNK, there is no specific direction for pause but tori is supposed to show full control of uke, and uke is supposed to show straight legs and hand bracing on tori's back. So, even though no specific instruction saying pause, it is impossible to show the wanted control to sensei without pause. In my opinion it is stupid condition of NNK standard but it is Kodokan standard. So answer is not a simple yes or no.

    Mitsuru
    Jacob3
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    Post by Jacob3 on Sun Dec 14, 2014 7:45 am

    wdax wrote:
    Davaro wrote:Good question...

    In "todays" competition standard of NNK, is there supposed to be a pause?

    I have seen different ways but what is the correct way according to what is checked these days?

    No.... it´s not!

    Has it even ever been required to have a pause? So many people seem to think so, but when I search for any older references, I mostly find no such description. So I wonder where it originated.
    Jacob3
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    Post by Jacob3 on Sun Dec 14, 2014 8:00 am

    Nozomi wrote:Answer is no and yes. In today's standard of NNK, there is no specific direction for pause but tori is supposed to show full control of uke, and uke is supposed to show straight legs and hand bracing on tori's back. So, even though no specific instruction saying pause, it is impossible to show the wanted control to sensei without pause. In my opinion it is stupid condition of NNK standard but it is Kodokan standard. So answer is not a simple yes or no.

    Mitsuru

    Why whould that be impossible? Control can easily be seen throughout the throw itself, even when nót pausing ( I would even say BECAUSE of not pausing ). Straight legs ( as in full body tention ) are also easily seen when not pausing. And no jury could even see uke's hand on tori's back, since they are normally watching from the front anyway. Even more, what is the use of uke bracing in tory's back, when there is no pause at all and he is thrown immediately. He would normally not even have the time to do so. So sorry, but I am still not convinced of any usefullness of the pause, at least not at a decent level. Cool

    And you say that it is Kodokan standard. Is it really the standard? Or are there just some people at the Kodokan stating this, but it not being an official 'rule'?
    Why would you state that it in practice IS neccessary, while Wdax sensei ( whom I hold in very high regard in these kind of issues ( no disrespect intended to you btw )) so firmly says it is not.
    I don't mean this personal, since you already stated that it is a stupid condition, so we are on the same page Very Happy. I simply wonder what is now the 'official' way of performing it.
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    wdax

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    Post by wdax on Sun Dec 14, 2014 11:01 am

    I never heard anybody stating, that there should be a pause in Kata-guruma, and I never read, there should bei one. But many people stop the action when Uke is lifted full up.

    I also never heard anybody stating, that there should be a pause after the first step of Okuri-ashi-harai. but many people make one... I could add a lot of other examples.

    The point in Kata is never, what should be demonstrated or shown (to anybody). Important is, what should be studied. The most important point to study with Kata-guruma is the positioning of the body under the COG of uke. Tori´s body should not be bent forward or sideward. Tori lifts Uke up an throws him down without bending the upper body in the throwing direction. The action of Tori must be in a certain order. Kuzushi is created by a long left step backwards, then Tori lifts Uke up and moves is left foot towards his right into shizentai. During this step, Tori cannot pull down Uke with his left hand. Tori also cannot move his left foot until Uke is not lifted reasonably high up. So lifting up and withdrawing the left foot happens at the same time. Then - after Uke is lifted up - Tori can throw him down. So the action is slowed down, when Uke is lifted, but not stopped.

    But we all are human, so it sometimes happens, the there is an interruption that should not be there.

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