and then we have a professor....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoLjjMGKHgg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoLjjMGKHgg
NBK wrote:First point: my assumption was that the aikidoka could use his standard attacks in such a match. That means wrist locks.finarashi wrote:Maybe one reason is that Judoka spends large part of their practice time with grip fighting. Aikidoka is used to get a grip and have the uke maintain that grip throughout the move. i.e. old fashioned aikidoka that did judo too were different.NBK wrote:I rather enjoyed that - probably more than Barry the aikidoka! I wonder if he intentionally didn't attack the judoka's wrist.medo wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AssByvGVx6s
Similar to my experience with Aikido possibly an example of a social club Aikido player been doing Aikido many years but never got past that beginner stage!!
More philosophical point; what is the relationship with hurting your opponent? You speak of wrist locks. Wrist locks are banned in Judo due to possibility of resisting opponent getting hurt. IMHO Judo tries to eliminate all techniques with which you can cause permanent damage to your opponent. In Judo randori you are frowned if you hurt your opponent. in competition many slight moves actually cause pain.
Second philosophical point; how much hurting / pain is involved in modern aikido practice? I don't know! If I read some books then the answer is of similar level than in Judo, but ....
Again I have deep respect with aikido and the pondering is more in line of how we now practice it.
I was recently rereading Harrison's 1905 'The Complete Kao Jiu-jutsu' rules, and noted the rules for judo / jujutsu versus boxing specified that the judoka could use all his techniques. At the time, that included finger and wrist locks.
Second: the level of pain really depends on the aikido style and dojo, the individual tori, etc. In something hard like Yôshinkai, you better learn quickly to respond to joint locks or you can get a very painful locks. Of course, the response herds you towards the throw, as it starts with pain avoidance. The practical side is of course that an unaware opponent would be seriously injured, with sprained or broken wrists, or broken shoulders from the fall.
Something like Akikai is typically much more gentle, guiding to a smooth conclusion, and only builds up to frenetic action with advanced practitioners.
Very much like aikido, and many more techniques, I bet, than you're likely to find in historic Chin Na (but not my field). In fact I feel certain, without evidence or feeling the need to seek evidence, there's a lot of aikido influence in this set. There's always bleedover from other arts; I stopped looking as it become obvious to me that all arts borrow from each other. And the influence of Japan throughout Asia and as a center of commerce and education in Asia for the last 100 years means that a lot of people learned a lot of Japanese martial arts and took them home.medo wrote:
Talking wrist locks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=105&v=Etvn0wmBkaU
any relation to Aikido?
I feel that a competitive at a reasonable standard Judoka would have developed grip and forearm strength far greater than the average Aikido practitioner unless the Judoka does a full beginners lung at the Aikidoka unlikely wrist locks would be effective the Judoka would just snatch his wrist back.
medo wrote:and then we have a professor....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OoLjjMGKHgg
medo wrote:Here's an interesting guy, British to.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VOb2YBBr7E
It does not look like Aikido to me more Jujutsu with the Atemi?
The titles interesting.......
NBK wrote:Very much like aikido, and many more techniques, I bet, than you're likely to find in historic Chin Na (but not my field). In fact I feel certain, without evidence or feeling the need to seek evidence, there's a lot of aikido influence in this set. There's always bleedover from other arts; I stopped looking as it become obvious to me that all arts borrow from each other. And the influence of Japan throughout Asia and as a center of commerce and education in Asia for the last 100 years means that a lot of people learned a lot of Japanese martial arts and took them home.medo wrote:
Talking wrist locks
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=105&v=Etvn0wmBkaU
any relation to Aikido?
I feel that a competitive at a reasonable standard Judoka would have developed grip and forearm strength far greater than the average Aikido practitioner unless the Judoka does a full beginners lung at the Aikidoka unlikely wrist locks would be effective the Judoka would just snatch his wrist back.
But with decent aikido you'd have more emphasis on a decent taisabki / body posture/movement than the Chin Na master. I'll teach a number of these same techniques today in Nihon Jûjutsu, but will correct anyone who moves so out of balance as this gent. (With the exception of the finger locks - my sensei had little regard for them.) www.nihonjujutsu.com is a form of pre-war aikibudô taught by Ueshiba Morihei sensei and Tomiki Kenji sensei, and correct body movement was core to the art.
Certainly the average, well-trained judoka (a contradiction in terms?) has well developed grip and balance. If some block of a guy like Billc grabs me, subtle movement doesn't get his wrist into the proper position to manipulate. But if I can start the wrist motion, Billc, like most judoka, doesn't have much flexibility in his wrist (from long years of that training), and if you can get past that initial resistance, wrist techniques can be very effective.
But Billc, utilizing the subtlety of judo (which is, after all, the topic of the OP), will adjust slightly when I make a wrist attack. He'll drop his center of gravity slightly, tuck his elbow just so, while being careful not to lose his balance, and shrug off a subtle wrist attack. So, I'll be forced to use a much larger motion against him than against the largely compliant, out of balance opponent uke in the video above. Maybe the primary attack will fail but the act of resistance gives another opening - that's aiki.
Most well trained judoka are not affected by low level aikidoka techniques, and often neither knows why. Tomiki sensei himself thought that no one should study aikido before ten years of good judo training, to establish correct posture and taisabaki.
NBK
NBK wrote:
Billc, like most judoka, doesn't have much flexibility ...
To me the first 3 are pretty much what was stressed when I trained to become nationally competitive Judoka. There are number of posts about Sen here. It is something that is and has been thought a lot in Judo.Kaji wrote:Please allow me to add my two cents.
...
Next, Aikido stuff NOT common with Judo (again, nage-waza only):
- Sen (initiative)
- Ma'ai (distancing and timing)
- Don't let them grab you
- Combine with Atemi-waza
- Combine with Kansetsu-waza
- Combine with Shime-waza
- Use ukemi proactively to ruin your opponent's kake
Striking can indeed be used at the tsukuri/kuzushi and kake stages to interrupt timing, exert force, follow through a throw, etc. but it is more...NBK wrote:Thanks, Kaji.
There's a lot of discussion regarding atemi-waza (striking techniques).
for the sake of discussion, can you equate a judoka jerking or pushing his opponent to interrupt his timing, or to take his balance, to striking? Korindo Aikido was originally focussed on self-defense somewhat more than most aikido arts, but I think that the judo equivalent is a sharp bump or pull.
Thank you for sharing this. In Korindo Aikido we also study the Koshiki-no-kata extensively, with painstaking emphasis on action-reaction, kuzushi, ma'ai, etc. In your example of the Ko-daore kata, yes, we would actually start practising it by doing the ôgoshi. The reasoning is that if tori doesn't know what uke was about to do how can tori's technique be correct.NBK wrote:Incidentally, today at jujutsu practice Sato Tadayuki sensei, the shihan of the Waseda University aikido program, was our guest instructor (he comes once a month or so).
The instruction was based on Ko-daore of Koshiki no Kata. You can see the Kodokan version here (if it doesn't spool to #7 at 3:05sec or so)
(...)
What the Kodokan video does not stress is the complicated interaction between tori and uke, who doesn't simply melt against uke's outstretched arm, but actually tries to deflect uke's attack to attack with ôgoshi, then has his arm deflected / punched through by tori. The 'punch' is not a blow against uke, but rather a more subtle extension of tori's arm in a form similar to a strike at a critical point to take advantage of a fleeting weakness in uke's posture and relative position to defeat uke's attack.
Fascinating stuff, very effective, but very difficult to describe. Sato sensei is a pleasure to study with, and brings a unique aikido/jujutsu informed view of some of oldest techniques in judo.
Hi finarashi - long time no see!finarashi wrote:To me the first 3 are pretty much what was stressed when I trained to become nationally competitive Judoka. There are number of posts about Sen here. It is something that is and has been thought a lot in Judo.Kaji wrote:Please allow me to add my two cents.
...
Next, Aikido stuff NOT common with Judo (again, nage-waza only):
- Sen (initiative)
- Ma'ai (distancing and timing)
- Don't let them grab you
- Combine with Atemi-waza
- Combine with Kansetsu-waza
- Combine with Shime-waza
- Use ukemi proactively to ruin your opponent's kake
Maybe kata training is not what the OP is familiar with but e.g. juno-kata utilizes all three combinations. I still like to see kata as part of our Judo teaching and not think Judo as the subset of only those things we teach to colored grades and to those that do competitive Judo. (= 90% of what is found in Judo books)
I would like to argue that sutemi-waza is what the OP describes as use of ukemi.
So maybe there is not that much difference. I'd like to think it is more about what one stresses when teaching. But what do I know.
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