jJûdô is more subtle than aikidô - and about anything else you can think of

NBK wrote:

medo wrote:
Talking wrist locks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=105&v=Etvn0wmBkaU

any relation to Aikido?

I feel that a competitive at a reasonable standard Judoka would have developed grip and forearm strength far greater than the average Aikido practitioner unless the Judoka does a full beginners lung at the Aikidoka unlikely wrist locks would be effective the Judoka would just snatch his wrist back.

Very much like aikido, and many more techniques, I bet, than you're likely to find in historic Chin Na (but not my field).  In fact I feel certain, without evidence or feeling the need to seek evidence, there's a lot of aikido influence in this set.  There's always bleedover from other arts; I stopped looking as it become obvious to me that all arts borrow from each other.  And the influence of Japan throughout Asia and as a center of commerce and education in Asia for the last 100 years means that a lot of people learned a lot of Japanese martial arts and took them home.  

But with decent aikido you'd have more emphasis on a decent taisabki / body posture/movement than the Chin Na master.  I'll teach a number of these same techniques today in Nihon Jûjutsu, but will correct anyone who moves so out of balance as this gent.  (With the exception of the finger locks - my sensei had little regard for them.)   www.nihonjujutsu.com is a form of pre-war aikibudô taught by Ueshiba Morihei sensei and Tomiki Kenji sensei, and correct body movement was core to the art.    

Certainly the average, well-trained judoka (a contradiction in terms?) has well developed grip and balance.  If some block of a guy like Billc grabs me, subtle movement doesn't get his wrist into the proper position to manipulate.  But if I can start the wrist motion, Billc, like most judoka, doesn't have much flexibility in his wrist (from long years of that training), and if you can get past that initial resistance, wrist techniques can be very effective.
 
But Billc, utilizing the subtlety of judo (which is, after all, the topic of the OP), will adjust slightly when I make a wrist attack.  He'll drop his center of gravity slightly, tuck his elbow just so, while being careful not to lose his balance, and shrug off a subtle wrist attack.  So, I'll be forced to use a much larger motion against him than against the largely compliant, out of balance opponent uke in the video above.  Maybe the primary attack will fail but the act of resistance gives another opening - that's aiki.  

Most well trained judoka are not affected by low level aikidoka techniques, and often neither knows why.  Tomiki sensei himself thought that no one should study aikido before ten years of good judo training, to establish correct posture and taisabaki.  

NBK

NBK wrote: 

Billc, like most judoka, doesn't have much flexibility ...

1. Managing your own centre of gravity
   
2. Dominating your opponent's centre of gravity, aka kuzushi
   
3. Tai-sabaki
   
4. Efficient mechanics
   
5. Use opponent's momentum
   
6. Ukemi for breakfalling
   

1. Sen (initiative)
   
2. Ma'ai (distancing and timing)
   
3. Don't let them grab you
   
4. Combine with Atemi-waza
   
5. Combine with Kansetsu-waza
   
6. Combine with Shime-waza
   
7. Use ukemi proactively to ruin your opponent's kake
   

Kaji wrote:Please allow me to add my two cents.

...
Next, Aikido stuff NOT common with Judo (again, nage-waza only):

1. Sen (initiative)
   
2. Ma'ai (distancing and timing)
   
3. Don't let them grab you
   
4. Combine with Atemi-waza
   
5. Combine with Kansetsu-waza
   
6. Combine with Shime-waza
   
7. Use ukemi proactively to ruin your opponent's kake
   

NBK wrote:Thanks, Kaji.

There's a lot of discussion regarding atemi-waza (striking techniques).  

for the sake of discussion, can you equate a judoka jerking or pushing his opponent to interrupt his timing, or to take his balance, to striking?  Korindo Aikido was originally focussed on self-defense somewhat more than most aikido arts, but I think that the judo equivalent is a sharp bump or pull.

NBK wrote:Incidentally, today at jujutsu practice Sato Tadayuki sensei, the shihan of the Waseda University aikido program, was our guest instructor (he comes once a month or so).  

The instruction was based on Ko-daore of Koshiki no Kata.  You can see the Kodokan version here (if it doesn't spool to #7 at 3:05sec or so)
(...)
What the Kodokan video does not stress is the complicated interaction between tori and uke, who doesn't simply melt against uke's outstretched arm, but actually tries to deflect uke's attack to attack with ôgoshi, then has his arm deflected / punched through by tori.  The 'punch' is not a blow against uke, but rather a more subtle extension of tori's arm in a form similar to a strike at a critical point to take advantage of a fleeting weakness in uke's posture and relative position to defeat uke's attack.  
Fascinating stuff, very effective, but very difficult to describe.  Sato sensei is a pleasure to study with, and brings a unique aikido/jujutsu informed view of some of oldest techniques in judo.

finarashi wrote:

Kaji wrote:Please allow me to add my two cents.

...
Next, Aikido stuff NOT common with Judo (again, nage-waza only):

1. Sen (initiative)
   
2. Ma'ai (distancing and timing)
   
3. Don't let them grab you
   
4. Combine with Atemi-waza
   
5. Combine with Kansetsu-waza
   
6. Combine with Shime-waza
   
7. Use ukemi proactively to ruin your opponent's kake
   

To me the first 3 are pretty much what was stressed when I trained to become nationally competitive Judoka. There are number of posts about Sen here. It is something that is and has been thought a lot in Judo.

Maybe kata training is not what the OP is familiar with but e.g. juno-kata utilizes all three combinations. I still like to see kata as part of our Judo teaching and not think Judo as the subset of only those things we teach to colored grades and to those that do competitive Judo. (= 90% of what is found in Judo books)

I would like to argue that sutemi-waza is what the OP describes as use of ukemi.

So maybe there is not that much difference. I'd like to think it is more about what one stresses when teaching. But what do I know.